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#37451 - 04/24/04 11:39 AM Re: M60's vs Rockets Home Audtion saga
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4800
Loc: western canada
In reply to:

It's a fact to you and anyone that says it is ... In your opinion.



Actually no.
I'm am talking about SCIENTIFICALLY PUBLISHED JOURNAL PAPERS on the limits of human hearing and psychoacoustic testing.
This is not just "my" opinion.
That IS real world fact. I know it appears hard for you to understand though because it contradicts your personal beliefs on the subject, but believe it or not, human ears are no where near as good as most people think they are.

In reply to:

Others have measured the changes... Myself included.



Once again, you state something and yet provide no proof.
Send me the title of a science, peer reviewed journal article on the subject.
No, Stereophile and other magazines are not valid sources of information.

In reply to:

I'm not some novice and these Axioms are not my first set of speakers.
I've been an Audiophile and musician for some 30 years.



Both these points are irrelevant. Scientific experiments to do not care whether a person is a self professed audiophile or not. As long as a random selection of subjects for testing is taken, many variables about individual characteristics can be assumed as spread equally across a distribution curve.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#37452 - 04/24/04 11:49 AM Re: M60's vs Rockets Home Audtion saga
Petre Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 26
Tell you what Cheesbro ....Ask someone you respect .

I told Craigsub about this ..... He was able to measure the difference in his sub shoot out.

2 of the 3 subs had a measured change.

Science always wants to prove they know more. It doesn't matter how they prove ... just that they prove their opinion.

As I said before A physicist on the AVS forum stepped into another one of these discussions and shot all the theories about miraculous unchanging materials used in speakers and no breakin from manufacture , all to hell . But what does he know too . He pointed to scientific facts about the properties of ALL materials and stated proof of the reasons for change . He noted as well that changes are subtle for new materials and then stay in a state of seeming stability then eventually failure speaking in microcellular terms that no one understood . He even shot a supposed engineers theories to hell.

You say there's a paper or two that says otherwise ... right ? And if it's in black and white it must be so ... forget what you hear.

I say it's ridiculous to believe that right off the assembly line there is no change from hours of run in.

Ask Craig what his findings were ...

Then have a drink on me.


Edited by Petre (04/24/04 11:55 AM)

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#37453 - 04/24/04 11:49 AM Re: M60's vs Rockets Home Audtion saga
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4800
Loc: western canada
In reply to:

If speakers never changed ... why do drivers go bad after many years of play.



Petre, this goes EXACTLY towards what Bigwill just pointed out.
If speakers breakin, why don't they continue to break down?
You just agreed that they do.
So, in reality then, speakers will ALWAYS have a constantly changing sound as the components break down over time, by your definition.
By that standard, every other year? month? the speakers should have a whole new character sound again.

This brings me to the second point. Within these forums we've had ppl come and say things like, "my Axiom M60s needed xx hours of breakin and then they sounded good".
Replace xx with 10, 25 and 100.
How is it that the SAME speaker design and drivers all require different breakin periods? They made with all the same components yet there is a MAGNITUDE difference in the reported 'breakin' times.
Why are ppl not coming up with all the same conclusions on breakin?
No physicist can explain such a phenonmena. A behavioural scientist can.

I've heard lots of 'professionals' state how electronics/speakers will have this component or that component and on the white papers, you can make the numbers look different. The question remains, is it audible to the human ear?
Well, to determine an answer, a bunch of ppl stand around a setup and listen, but the casual listening tests are biased due to the nature of the human mind, and information from such auditions are useless. Any objective and honest scientist would know this.
Double blind testing is the only method by which you can remove alot of that bias, but hey, i guess it is too much to ask for from all these "audiophiles" to determine truth. Heaven forbid it would crush so many myths that the magical audio world will collapse upon them.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#37454 - 04/24/04 11:52 AM Re: M60's vs Rockets Home Audtion saga
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4800
Loc: western canada
Wow.
The ignorance displayed at the scientific process here is astonishing.
The day a meteor comes crashing to earth though, geez, will everyone ever turn to the science for REAL answers then eh?

If the differences are measured, show me the proof. Unless you hold a PhD yourself, i would quit trying to argue proper science methodology and stick to your fantasy.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#37455 - 04/24/04 11:53 AM Re: M60's vs Rockets Home Audtion saga
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Silly Petre for thinking that Chess's opinions are mere opinions rather than FACTS. Chess will tell you, Petre, you don't understand because it's hard for you to understand. Chess tells you that you have difficulty comprehending and that you shouldn't trust your ears when it comes to evaluating audio equipment. But ... how then can we say that we trust our ears when we say we really enjoy our Axiom speakers? No, Petre, don't trust your ears. Trust Chess's announcement of SCIENTIFIC TRUTHS - much more powerful than the mere opinions of other and lesser folks who find it difficult to understand.

Trust your ears. Enjoy the music.

_________________________

_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#37456 - 04/24/04 11:56 AM Re: M60's vs Rockets Home Audtion saga
Petre Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 26
And now comes the name calling ....

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#37457 - 04/24/04 01:33 PM Re: M60's vs Rockets Home Audtion saga
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
Petre, the only name calling I witnessed just now was your "Cheesbro" comments.
My ears tell me my Axiom M60s haven't changed a bit from day one.
Seems pretty cut and dried to me, but whatever.
Why can't people disagree, debate, refute, etc... without getting upset? Not to seem "holier-than-thou", just sincerely wondering.

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#37458 - 04/24/04 02:04 PM Re: M60's vs Rockets Home Audtion saga
Petre Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 26
BigWill

"The ignorance" & "stick to your fantasy." to me are very condescending remarks that border / precede direct name calling.

The Cheesbro was an honest to goodness mistake that I did not even know was there until you pointed it out. I did not intentionally change his name and my apologies for doing so.

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#37459 - 04/24/04 02:44 PM Let it go already.
AdamP88 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 639
Loc: Omaha, NE
You've got something on your shoulder, 2x6.

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#37460 - 04/24/04 02:48 PM Re: M60's vs Rockets Home Audtion saga
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4800
Loc: western canada
In reply to:

The Cheesbro was an honest to goodness mistake that I did not even know was there until you pointed it out. I did not intentionally change his name and my apologies for doing so.



Then Petre, i apologize for my remarks but Bigwill has it correct. I certainly viewed your misrepresentation of my username as the start of name calling. It is rather hard to mistake chesseroo for cheesbro. I certainly never mistook Petre for Perturbed, or Puerile or other P words.
I never had any intention of calling you names, although i might add, that the label for 2x6spds has been uttered by others in the past and it continues to be well suited as he proves time and time again.

I simply asked for proof (proof beyond a general subjective opinion which to date, no one has been able to supply) and instead i got a runaround back to the starting point again. Why are doing blind tests so feared by people being critical of audio components?
It is a test that actually uses the human ears for results, BUT in a controlled, unbiased setting. I actually find it a fascinating thing to try and setup such an experiment in home when i get the chance to audition some equipment. Maybe others just don't want to bother.

_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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