Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Being doubly sure...

As some of you know I've completed my new basement HT room so I'm now looking to fill it up. If I can gather the courage to make one more large purchase I'm thinking about replacing my M3's and VP150 with something new for this room. I have my eye on a pair of M80's and a VP180 with a new pair of QS8s for the side surrounds and using my existing QS4s for the rear surrounds.

I currently have an old HK AVR630 which I believe should be able to handle the 4 ohm load of the speakers. I know it's only rated 75x7 or 90x2 but HK way over built this receiver plus I have no money for a new one right now!

The room is ~3000 cu ft. It's rather wide too at 23' which brings me to wonder if I would have any significant off angle issues with the VP180. Of course the poor folks sitting at the extreme edges aren't going to have a very balanced experience anyway but I decided to go with this design because it will be better for watching football games than a traditional two row HT room. Pros and cons like anything. My seat in the center of the room is all that really matters, right?

Here is a diagram of the room.

I always spend a lot of time over thinking big purchases like this. I wanted to see if I had thought of everything that I should have. Some really great and helpful minds around here that I figured I'd put to good use!

Ben, considering your diagram(which doesn't actually show the other seating)and speaker choices, it sounds good to me. Of course if you have a concern for wider center channel dispersion you could consider the VP160.

That room would be ideal for width speakers... The M3's would probably do just fine. A Denon 4311 would work nicely.

Maybe down the road I'll look at additional speakers. I'll definitely be getting a new AVR but prob not for at least a year. I think in the short term my concern was driving all those 4 ohm speakers and if the VP180 would be a problem. Even if the VP180 isn't ideal for the folks sitting on the edges (I haven't completely decided on seating yet) I think that would be the least of their issues. Thou I did decide to get a plasma for the room so they should have no issues seeing.

Ordered!

Ben that's great! What finish did you decide on? Also what are you presently using for a sub?

I have a similarly shaped room, in that it is wider than it is deep. I have M80's a VP150 and 4 QS8's. The imaging of the center channel, I have found, is not the issue; no matter where you sit, you know that voices are coming from the center. The issue I had was the imaging of the L and R speakers. Positioned perpendicular to the back wall, gave the person on the left an earfull of left channel and not much of the right - same for the flip side. I currently have quite a bit of toe-in (L/R pointed right at center listening position) and this has helped tremendously. From the far left seat, the L speaker is 10' away, but the R speaker is 17 feet away.
For the sweet spot, the toe-in has narrowed down the sound stage a bit, which is not too apparent when watching movies, but more apparent when listening to two channel.
The QS8's are so forgiving (and so good at what they do) that I think one could mount them across the front wall and they would still do their job!

You should be very happy with your purchase. Of course, we'll require pics when you're done.

I've spent so much money on this basement project + new TV, etc that I just opted for the default cherry. Plus my existing QS4's were already that finish.

My current sub is a DIY. I'm either going to build two new identical subs or consider looking at something professional. My thoughts about getting the M80's was that I wouldn't need a sub for music (most of the time). I'm pretty happy with my efforts at building subs for movies but for music, that's a lot harder IMO.

Everything you stated is what I suspected. Most of the movies will only be watched by my wife and I so none of this will be an issue. When friends come over they'll just have to deal with it I guess. None of them are anywhere near as passionate about the sound as I am anyway.

Of course I'll be posting new pictures. I have a running thread on the HT forum of my remodel process which is complete. I'm going to put together a new album once I get everything setup the way I want thou.

One crazy idea I heard (I mean seriously crazy) is letting your *friends* sit in the sweet spot occasionally. I have never tried this myself, but thought I would pass it on just in case...

it happens sometimes that i offer my friend to sit at my sweet spot for a movie or some music.
most of the time she says "no thanks, i'm used to the sound when sitting on the side.
to get a better idea of what it means, check out the link below (my room, my equipment).

bridgman, why would i be crazy to make that offer?

Perhaps "crazy" was the wrong word, but "hogging the sweet spot" seems to be a time-honoured tradition

Nobody sits at the sweetest spot but me!

That's my motto in my HT room :p

I always try to encourage guests to sit in the center since I get to enjoy that spot most of the time.

I do the same and for the same reason as CV, I let my guests sit in the sweet spot

If they pay me 15 bucks I'll let em sit in my spot.

Curses, have to wait out the weekend!

!

Ahh! Brings me back. We know how you feel! Have BIG fun, Ben!

Fantastic! Save a jar of "smell" for me!






















































From the speakers, Ben. The speakers!

Now the fun begins!

No it's all mine!


Both of them!


um

Question/comments for anyone listening:

So I got these M80's setup with a new VP180 and new QS8's along with my old QS4's. I really have been busy the last week so I haven't had a chance to sit down and drive these things that hard yet. I'm very happy overall (so far REALLY impressed with the VP180) but I am disappointed with the low end from the M80's. I guess with all the raving from other M80 owners about the bass from these speakers I was expecting more, much more. Granted I have yet to play them at very loud levels but so far they just don't seem too pronounced in that area.

What I've tried:

• I have them set to large on my AVR
• I've moved them around and pulled them back to about ~8 inches from the wall (which did help a tad bit)
• I put my ear up to each driver and I believe they are all working.
• I've swapped pos/neg to test for phase issues
• I've spent some time listening in surround as well as 2 channel

My M3's seem to have nearly as much low end as these M80's... at the moderate to low volume levels I've been playing with. I know it could be a case of just being used to a lot more bass because of my car stereo and the M80's being much more flat but it just seems like something is missing.

Here is one look at how I have them setup
here is another angle

What material have you been listening to on them to test for that sort of impact? Gunfire is always a good demo, and for that, it's hard to beat Band of Brothers and Saving Private Ryan. I can't say that I listened to movies much on the M3s before I took them in to work, but the M80s have never failed to impress me for gunfire.

I'm really just focusing on music right now. For movies I never not had my sub running along with the M3's.

Grrr, I think a lot of it has to do with my new room. I was walking around the speakers tonight and noticed when I'm standing up near the TV in between the M80's there is a lot more low end. As I walk back and sit down it diminishes a lot.

Ben, it really sounds like your room is the culprit for your diminished bass response. Do you have an SPL meter? Try charting some measurements if you have a test CD.

May be time to start experimenting with speaker placement and/or listening position, if possible.

Rooms suck. I dislike them.

Ya!!!! and those doily looking things that old women wear to church!!! And jets that don't leave cool vapor trails!!!! And those soft, foam hockey pucks for woosies!!!!!!!

I think I need a coffee. I'll be right back.

Got coffee?

I'm pretty sure those "doily looking things" ARE doilies.

Are you correcting my spelling or confirming they really are just doilies pinned to their heads. Luckily, I have now finished my coffee so it doesn't matter.

The latter. Spellcheck was inconclusive.

Ben it's too bad the sound coming from that room is less than satisfying for you, especially with the cash, and time, you've put into that space. Don't know about the budget, but here are some options as I see it.

1- You're still inside the 30 day window with Axiom, consider the new line speaker. Nearly doubles the drivers, with an additional 6.5'" woofer. Earlier talk on these new speakers, stated they would need too be pulled out from the wall as much as two feet or so. This would increase the woofers by one, and places them closer to your seating area, not to mention what it would do for the mids, and highs.

2- I know you mentioned earlier you only had one DIY sub. Could consider going with two strong subs, start off by placing them on adjacent walls, then altering their positioning until you find the best room response.

3- Are you presently running a power amp. If yes, is it enough to drive those M80's. If you're relying on a AVR to do so, it could be an overwhelming task to power this new system, in that new space. Besides the M80's, you have now added two more surrounds (QS8's) into your setup configuration.

AS you can see Ben, I'm being really free and easy with your money. But seriously it's going to take some $$$ to give you that sound you're looking for.

Hi,
Definitely a room issue, you seem to be sitting in a null area. Not much can be done except moving your couch and/or speakers. Sometimes a few feet can make all the difference.

You need room treatment bad.

1 - I actually helped pay for these M80's by being one of the co-winners in the LFR naming contest Those suckers are out of my league since I'd need additional amps ($$$) to power them plus the cost of the LFR's themselves

2 - Ya I have plans to get two new identical subs in the future. I wired spots for them already on each side of the "stage". I've done some testing by bringing my small living room sub into this room and having two definitely smooths the bass out in the room. I was just hoping/planning to use the M80's by themselves for stereo music listening without needing the subs on. When I'm in the mood for surround music listening I'd add the subs back into the mix and of course movies get the full treatment.

3 - All I have right now is my old trusty HK AVR630. That is something else I'd like to upgrade in the future. Probably a new AVR and possibly a power amp at least for the mains.

All good things to consider thou, I appreciate it.

I've been putting off getting a meter but I do want one. That said I don't really have many options for moving stuff around since I planned the room out ahead of time with wiring everything in certain places.

Unfortunately I just don't have many options for moving anything around thou I will continue to ponder that to be sure. I'm wondering if building small bass traps (since I don't have room for large ones) in the corners would do much for the M80's. While I know it would benefit the sub(s) I haven't found the bass to be too lacking for them.

nice work Inane on your room

Goto Futureshop or whatever you have in the USA. buy I top of the line reviever or amp and try it out for the week. Then return it and get your money back. Atleast you will be able to tell if you need to upgrade that HK sooner

I definitely need some more power. This new room is a bit larger than the HT in my old house where the HK was plenty. Plus I'm definitely losing low end because of my seating vs the M80's.

You do have a huge room Ben, plus you don't have a lot of stuff in it for the bass to enoluate(rattle). I would start with a room kit from http://gikacoustics.com/gik_room_kits_acoustic_panels.html or build your own.

Ben, these are some of the best value amps that i could find.
http://www.spearitsound.com/Multi-Channel_Power_Amps-NAD_T975_Refurbished.html

and
http://www.spearitsound.com/Multi-Channel_Power_Amps-NAD_T955_Refurbished.html


I have a buddy who bought a 955 from them a couple weeks ago, and he likes it VERY much... I have also bought several components from them as well, good guys.

Ben, If you want any help buying an amp, I would be more than glad to help spend your money.

p.s. accessories4less has this amp.
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARMM7055/Marantz-MM7055-5-Channel-Power-Amplifier/1.html#!specifications

It doesn't list 4ohm ratings though. But, i'm sure you could make some phone calls and get those.. This amp also has XLR inputs, incase you ever decide to go the XLR rute.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm definitely going to look into room treatments when I get some time and feel rested for this long 2 year basement remodel. I can procrastinate with the best of em!

New subs, AVR and amps are definitely on the want list but it might be a couple years before I get all of em. Spent so much money on the basement, new TV, new speakers etc. I really wanted to get new subs first but now I'm not sure. Even just a 2 channel amp for the M80's would be very nice to have.

Ben, do you have any idea what brand of amps you would like to go with? Are you going to want to stick with the same series of amps?


I am currently using a 2 channel amp, and a 3 channel. I like this setup, due to the separate power supplies. My 2 channel is powering my M60's, and then the center powers the center and surrounds. With this combination, i have not had any lack of power issues. When i had a single 5 channel marantz MM9000 during some movies a couple of the amp channels would be driven into the clipping region. Since going to seperate amps, i have not had that problem.. However, i will say the new amp channels are over 2X as powerful than the Marantz.


Spearitsound, and accerrories4less are both good places to get a good value.

Ben, you seem to be concentrating on the least likely suspect: your amplification. If your M3s have "nearly as much low end", something's wrong, and it's unlikely(rather than "definitely")that an amplifier with a higher maximum power rating is the solution.

When I was comparing them it wasn't completely apples to apples. I only had my M3's in the new basement for a very short period of time and hadn't listened to a lot of different things on them before switching out to the M80's. A lot of my experiences and feeling for the M3's have been shaped by the experiences I had with them in my old basement HT where they provided a surprising amount of low end. I realize now that part of my issue with the M80's is my new room. Both in freq response and size (larger).

I need to bring my M3's back downstairs and do a little A-B.

I'm completely open to brands. My initial thought was to use the AVR to power everything except the M80s which is why I said I may eventually look for a 2 channel amp (possibly 3 channel if I include the VP180). Again that's mostly because it would be less expensive than a 5 channel. Nothing is set in stone at this point except it won't be happening in the short future.

I have had a chance to play the M80s by themselves at about the max the HK can drive them and I don't have any doubts a separate amp could help out a little bit. When I say help out I'm talking about the entire range of freq, not just the low end. I also think some kind of room treatments would help me out but I really need to spend some time learning more about that subject.

Ben, try some B-A as well, just to make sure!

I would recommend, to bug nick for his phone number and call him..

I pity the fool (Mark).

Just wanted to add that I finally had a chance to crank the 80's way up. My HK was able to get 110db out of them at 9 feet and about -10 on the dial. I didn't try to go any farther because it was really freaking loud at that point. I think I have sensitive ears in that way.

Good news is at that loudness the bass from the 80's is pretty impressive.

I'm still not completely happy with the imaging/placement thou. These speakers are very very picky about where you place them. I've moved them all around and the sound changes a lot, can't decide what I like the best thou. One thing for sure there are only 2-3 seats in the room that really sound good. Going off axis really makes the sound quality/imaging suffer big time.