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#384257 - 10/17/12 01:41 PM bi wiring
brwsaw Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 988
Can anyone comment on the benefit of bi wiring Axioms?
Some on other forums say its not worth it yet others say the benefit is very real.
I am now leaning towards the VP180 and M80's, and would definitely add this option if there was a benefit to doing so.
There no doubt these are all good speakers, just wondering about the potential benefit if not using separates.


Edited by brwsaw (10/17/12 02:00 PM)
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#384258 - 10/17/12 01:57 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6382
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
Biwiring is always recommended but really only works best with Pear Cables that are properly elevated.
_________________________
"The Universe is the game of the self, which plays hide and seek forever and ever" - Alan Watts

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#384259 - 10/17/12 02:04 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17751
Loc: NoVA
Ignore the muppet. Biwiring is a waste of money. There is absolutely no point to it.
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#384260 - 10/17/12 02:11 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6382
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
Don't deny him the secrets of audio nirvana!

wink

Don't listen to him, brwsaw, as you can see from his avatar, he's clearly not been at this very long.
_________________________
"The Universe is the game of the self, which plays hide and seek forever and ever" - Alan Watts

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#384261 - 10/17/12 02:16 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17751
Loc: NoVA
Friends, I think we all know what Grover's agenda is. Can you trust the muppet who once let a cow drink coffee?

Grover, do you stand by your record on elephants in boats, sir? Can you defend that lapse in judgement?

Furthermore, this muppet is obviously unstable! We have all seen video evidence of his costumed exploits!
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#384262 - 10/17/12 02:38 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6382
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
America, who are you going to believe? An angry toddler or a cute, lovable, furry blue monster?

I have it on good authority that this so-called audio expert has never actually played a CD. He's too busy trying to cut his teeth on them. Furthermore, don't trust your ears to someone who is known to have put a peanut butter and jelly sandwich into his VCR.

Let me be clear: toddler Ken's plan just doesn't add up.
_________________________
"The Universe is the game of the self, which plays hide and seek forever and ever" - Alan Watts

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#384265 - 10/17/12 03:48 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: medic8r]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16267
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
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#384267 - 10/17/12 03:53 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17751
Loc: NoVA
GROVER MONSTER: Wrong on soup.
Wrong on taxi destinations.
Wrong on dancing while serving food.

Grover: Wrong for America.


Paid for by Monster Free America GPS
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#384268 - 10/17/12 04:20 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6382
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
You see, Toddler Ken can't be trusted. Look at his sig: he's been promoting Grover for years. He was very close to Grover. He was NEAR. NEEEEEEAR.

Now, in the heat of an election campaign, he and his big money allies in the Monster Free America crowd want you to believe that they've been far away from Grover all along. FAR. FAAAAAARRRRRRR.

You understand? You get it? No? OK, I'll do it again ...
_________________________
"The Universe is the game of the self, which plays hide and seek forever and ever" - Alan Watts

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#384270 - 10/17/12 05:27 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
Spoiler Offline
aficionado

Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 680
Loc: South Florida

Muppets Unite!

GROVER 2012!!




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Epic 80 / SVS PB13 Ultra
Denon 3805 / M2200 Outlaw Monos /
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#384271 - 10/17/12 06:03 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6382
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
Thank you so much for your support! Grover promises that, if elected, he will add that evil Dr. Bunsen Honeydew to the terror watchlist. Beaker will be free to live without fear!
_________________________
"The Universe is the game of the self, which plays hide and seek forever and ever" - Alan Watts

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#384275 - 10/17/12 07:47 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13321
Loc: Iowa
not waste your money on Buywiring.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#384280 - 10/17/12 09:16 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
brwsaw Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 988
Long live Beaker
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#384285 - 10/17/12 09:59 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10372
BRW, since you're a newcomer, I'll fill you in on some of the comments. A few years ago there was a so-called "review" on Pear Cables that was notably absurd even for that topic. They cost about $2,000 for a 3' pair, but that was okay, since the reviewer found them to be "very danceable" and commented further that with those cables you couldn't simply sit and listen to the music, but had to get up and move. Of course this was the object of much hilarity here and when cables which cost more than a few dollars are brought up, occasionally a veteran member may still inquire as to their "danceability".

As to elevating them, this refers to the scam involving selling little supports to hold cables a few inches above the floor so that the sound wouldn't be contaminated by contact with the surface.

Now as to bi wiring(sometimes sarcastically referred to as "buy wiring"), this can provide no audible benefit. All wiring for a two-way or more speaker has to separate at some point before the crossover network in the speaker so that the high and low frequency sections of the crossover each get a feed of the signal. With regular wiring this split occurs inside the enclosure; bi wiring simply moves the split back to the output terminals on the receiver. The same sound is carried in each case.

Alan has commented in the past about bi wire capable terminals being offered as a sop to audiophiles who imagine some benefit. When Axiom dropped their inclusion as standard on some models and made them optional, I'd suggested that the option be priced at $1,000.
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#384288 - 10/17/12 10:10 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: JohnK]
brwsaw Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 988
Thanks.
Spending too much on cables never did make sense.
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#384290 - 10/17/12 11:06 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
Boltron Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 170
Loc: Toronto
As most here agree, bi wiring won't buy you any improvement. However while on the subject of cables, I hope you give very serious consideration to power cables. Proper power cables prevent radio-frequency garbage from being fed back into the amplifier. This is the next best investment you can make after selecting the right speakers. Good power cords start at about $500.00. For your convenience I am including a link to one reputable dealer.

http://www.audioquest.com/power-cables/nrg-100

Share and enjoy.
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For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert.

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#384294 - 10/17/12 11:51 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: Boltron]
brwsaw Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 988
Thanks I bought one for each component that I have that was listed...
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#384295 - 10/17/12 11:53 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
brwsaw Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 988
not
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#384298 - 10/18/12 01:12 AM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10372
Yeah, that power cord fantasy is just another example, although rather extreme, of the advertising from the charlatans who pollute certain areas of the audio industry. They've learned how financially rewarding it can be to never underestimate the gullibility of some audiophiles, who're willing to pay 100 times as much for an item as trivial as a power cord to solve non-existent problems.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#384299 - 10/18/12 01:17 AM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
brwsaw Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 988
I am going to buy Axiom speaker cable. I don't think I can go wrong with it.
My closest cable provider sells the 14 gauge Monster cable for $1.50 a foot.
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#384306 - 10/18/12 08:03 AM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
Boltron Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 170
Loc: Toronto
It's sad that people actually fall for scams like that.

The Axiom speaker cable is very good, I also have it. In all seriousness you should use proper speaker cable. Good 12 AWG stranded copper is good for a runs up to about 30 ft for your mains and about double that for surrounds.
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For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert.

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#384335 - 10/18/12 03:06 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 764
Loc: Toronto
Even with all the cable scams and snake oil out their related to this topic, back awhile ago I read an article which, to me, exemplified the "ultimate" in scams. Hard to believe but it was an article on the superiority of "audiophile" fuses. The only advantage I could see with such an addition to your set-up was when the fuse blew your amp would sound "more open, transparent and less analytical".

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#384336 - 10/18/12 03:25 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: Boltron]
brwsaw Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 988
The speaker farthest from the receiver is only +/-25' if measured in a straight line, +/-35' when running cables under the floor and up through the wall to rear heights.
I'll still spring for Axioms 12 gauge. It makes sense and I have no issue with purchasing new better cable at $1 a foot.
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#384463 - 10/21/12 02:05 AM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Axiom speaker cable is of very good quality, highly stranded so it is very supple and lays flat, you really can't go wrong purchasing this wire.
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Jason
-----------------
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My HT

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#384508 - 10/22/12 07:58 AM Re: bi wiring [Re: jakewash]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6768
Loc: PEI, Canada
Originally Posted By: jakewash
very supple and lays flat


Snicker... It's early for my mind to be in the gutter, but I'll blame being so tired.
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#384545 - 10/22/12 10:38 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I figured someone would comment on that one.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#384566 - 10/23/12 12:07 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: jakewash]
Adelin Offline
buff

Registered: 07/26/11
Posts: 56
hello.

As a owner of a pair of axiom m80 speackers i can confirm it work pretty well with stock monowiring binding post.
Supple cable from axiom or other brands work good and tight well without over diding it.

I tryed bi-wiring on other speackers from another brand.
binding post and internal wiring on those speackers was bad quality:
there was no sound quality change;maybe increased heat.

Replacing bad quality straps on my other speackers by cutting short cable lenght was the good alternative to bi wiring or mono wiring with straps.


Axiom speackers and other brands with good build quality should work fine with mono wiring.

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#384569 - 10/23/12 12:51 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: Adelin]
brwsaw Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 988
[quote=Adelin]hello.

As a owner of a pair of axiom m80 speackers i can confirm it work pretty well with stock monowiring binding post.
Supple cable from axiom or other brands work good and tight well without over diding it.

I tryed bi-wiring on other speackers from another brand.
binding post and internal wiring on those speackers was bad quality:
there was no sound quality change;maybe increased heat.

Replacing bad quality straps on my other speackers by cutting short cable lenght was the good alternative to bi wiring or mono wiring with straps.


Axiom speackers and other brands with good build quality should work fine with mono wiring.


Thanks.
I do appreciate all the input I can get. (Just made me think of Johnny 5).
I don't know what I 'm doing.
It would seem the size of my TV room is limiting me.
I know I'm about a year way from a new dedicated room but waiting a year for new speakers is out of the question.
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#384662 - 10/24/12 11:13 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
AdrianD Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 85
Loc: Maple, Ontario
I am one of those morons that ordered bi-wiring posts on my M80s. And on top of that... I'm actually using the feature!
For the money, I just wanted to have that option; I have used 4 monoblocks to power the speakers. Call it placebo, or whatever else you want, but I felt that this setup has more headroom and less congested sound at high levels.
I do listen to music occasionally very loud (~ 100-105 dB).
_________________________
M80 v3, 2 x Emotiva UPA-1 Monoblocks, XPA-5, UMC-1 PrePro
Pro-Ject RPM Genie, Carver C2 Phono Preamp

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#384664 - 10/25/12 12:30 AM Re: bi wiring [Re: AdrianD]
brwsaw Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 988
What size room do you have them in and what is the distance you sit from them?
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#384665 - 10/25/12 12:30 AM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
brwsaw Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 988
What size room do you have them in and what is the distance you sit from them?
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What a good women

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#384669 - 10/25/12 07:05 AM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
AdrianD Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 85
Loc: Maple, Ontario
Originally Posted By: brwsaw
What size room do you have them in and what is the distance you sit from them?


Approximately 610 sq ft (5000 cubic ft); my listening position is 12 feet away.

PS I assumed the question is for me smile
_________________________
M80 v3, 2 x Emotiva UPA-1 Monoblocks, XPA-5, UMC-1 PrePro
Pro-Ject RPM Genie, Carver C2 Phono Preamp

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#384674 - 10/25/12 09:25 AM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17751
Loc: NoVA
At least you're biamping and not biwiring, eh?
_________________________
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#384692 - 10/25/12 12:35 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: AdrianD]
brwsaw Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 988
You have the same listening distance but I have 1/2 the cu ft to fill.
What do you think this will mean in overall value or sound quality at lower volumes, say 90-95 db?
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#384708 - 10/25/12 01:48 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
AdrianD Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 85
Loc: Maple, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Ken.C
At least you're biamping and not biwiring, eh?
Right; I do think there is a difference between the two. I should've made that clear, since I believe this thread is about bi-wiring. My bad.


Originally Posted By: brwsaw
You have the same listening distance but I have 1/2 the cu ft to fill.
What do you think this will mean in overall value or sound quality at lower volumes, say 90-95 db?

Honestly, I don't think it will make a difference, depending on the amp(s) you have. If your amp is decent in terms of power, you may not gain much if any.
As for value, I also don't think it's worth; I did it because I already had the amps for HT purpose and for a while a tried the bi-amping just to see if makes a difference.

For an almost guaranteed improvement you'll have to go with active bi-amping (bypass the speaker's crossover).

As this is (as you can see) a subjective matter, the best would be to try it for yourself if you can. Only then you can decide if there is difference, and if it is... if it's worth the money (remember the cables in the calculations).
_________________________
M80 v3, 2 x Emotiva UPA-1 Monoblocks, XPA-5, UMC-1 PrePro
Pro-Ject RPM Genie, Carver C2 Phono Preamp

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#384715 - 10/25/12 03:34 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: AdrianD]
brwsaw Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 988
Thanks for the reply.
I'm using a single receiver a this time and I won't be going to separates until I've moved into my next home.
As for bi-wiring and bi-amping you've all helped me understand that there's no benefit while I'm too cheap to upgrade and too lazy to do my own home work.
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#384722 - 10/25/12 09:26 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: brwsaw]
AdrianD Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 85
Loc: Maple, Ontario
It all depends how crazy you want to go; you'll be very surprised to see how much some people spent for only a very small gain. And most think it's worth it!
Audio is not a product, but a process; there is no definitive "ultimate" setup. A lot of people are very happy with MP3 on an iPod and a boom box; some others are spending $90k on a pair of speakers and they keep changing stuff because it still doesn't sound "right" to them.
This is the reason why we see cables selling for tens of thousands and things like the Blackbody ambient field conditioner, that goes for $1300. It will eliminate "near field electromagnetic (EM) interaction" between all your devices and improve sound quality; that's what the manufacturer says.
The secret is to know where to stop, and to trust your ears more than any review. I'm not saying reviews are not good, but in the end you are the "judge, jury and executioner" and it's your money to spend.
In any case, if you've got even a fraction more knowledge then what you knew yesterday... it's all that matters.
_________________________
M80 v3, 2 x Emotiva UPA-1 Monoblocks, XPA-5, UMC-1 PrePro
Pro-Ject RPM Genie, Carver C2 Phono Preamp

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#384745 - 10/26/12 04:51 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: AdrianD]
Adelin Offline
buff

Registered: 07/26/11
Posts: 56
Hello

i found links like:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/fre...ing-vs-biwiring

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bi-wire_bi-amp.htm

http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/160189.html

as i read it:
There are no any negative answer about bi amping.
Bi wiring one amp with Speacker A+B output instead on each speackers Is silly.

Vertical amping is to try before doing more advance tweack with active amp+ external crossover that breack warranty most of the time.
Forums users who tryed it may notice some change in both case.

Adrian D:
bi wiring 4 mono blocs is really different from what i tryed with my hk675 integrated stereo amp:
with other speackers capable of bi amping ; it's a silly thing i did on my own to cut speacker cables in four equal lenght for no improvment.
If i was using 4 monoblocs like you or either two amps it could be ok but definitively it's a no no to waste cable on bi wiring if not used on a passive/ bi amp setup.


One monobloc per speackers:
I will maybe make a move for that solution even if it require a preamp compared to an integrated amp.

For my usage it should be ok.

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#384952 - 10/31/12 07:58 PM Re: bi wiring [Re: Adelin]
AdrianD Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 85
Loc: Maple, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Adelin
Hello

i found links like:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/fre...ing-vs-biwiring

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bi-wire_bi-amp.htm

http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/160189.html

as i read it:
There are no any negative answer about bi amping.
Bi wiring one amp with Speacker A+B output instead on each speackers Is silly.

Vertical amping is to try before doing more advance tweack with active amp+ external crossover that breack warranty most of the time.
Forums users who tryed it may notice some change in both case.

Adrian D:
bi wiring 4 mono blocs is really different from what i tryed with my hk675 integrated stereo amp:
with other speackers capable of bi amping ; it's a silly thing i did on my own to cut speacker cables in four equal lenght for no improvment.
If i was using 4 monoblocs like you or either two amps it could be ok but definitively it's a no no to waste cable on bi wiring if not used on a passive/ bi amp setup.


One monobloc per speackers:
I will maybe make a move for that solution even if it require a preamp compared to an integrated amp.

For my usage it should be ok.


All true; I apologize for my rant as it didn't really pertain to you question.
The only benefit (albeit a "silly" one as you put it) for bi-wiring speakers to the same amp is the double physical connection; in some cases like pets, kids, it may come in handy. Other than that, I agree: no other benefit.
_________________________
M80 v3, 2 x Emotiva UPA-1 Monoblocks, XPA-5, UMC-1 PrePro
Pro-Ject RPM Genie, Carver C2 Phono Preamp

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