Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Front PJ vs. Plasma TV

I finally got around to watching the final two Harry Potter movies and thought the movies were awfully dark. This is based on viewing from my Epson 8350 front PJ. I have dynamic iris off and after just now calibrating it with DV Essentials, believe contrast and brightness are about as good as this projector is capable of.

So I watched portions of Deathly Hallows Part II on my 1 year old 50" Panasonic Vierra plasma tv and the darker areas showed a lot more detail.

So I have to ask myself are front PJ's ever going to get a contrast black level anywhere near a plasma tv? I know DLP projectors have better contrast and black levels but I can't remember how my old X-1 fared in this regard and have not seen any of the newer DLP units to compare to.

I am very certain my Epson 8350 is setup properly or very near to it and for movies not as dark I really enjoy it. Of course maybe I just need to spend $4,000 on a projector as opposed to the $1,200 this one cost.

As plasma tv's get bigger and bigger is anyone here considering abandoning the projector?

Greg

I just ran my calibration disc on the Pansonic and what a difference.

I won't buy another front projector until I find one that has black levels and contrast on par with my tv.

Anyone know how much you have to spend to make this happen?

Greg

I am..


I have a 720p projector that i used for years... I am pretty sure that i will be buying a plasma, or LED and most likely never use the projector again.. Unless i have a dedicated room, with complete control of the lighting in said room...


Like you said, flat panel TV's are getting bigger and bigger as well as more affordable... As they approach the 90+" size the advantage (huge picture) of a projector diminishes. I think currently as the 80+" flat panels sell for just over 5k$, there will be more and more people shifting away from projectors, especially when the price drops below 5k$..

Well said.

But before I make my final decision I'll have to compare a $5k tv to a 5k projector. That may level the field, especially with a DLP but that remains to be seen.

Greg

Considering the recent release of 90" Sharp LED, the upcoming OLED and the general plethora of 60-75" large screen tvs out there now for prices that are within reach of the common man, we have completely abandoned any idea of getting a front projection set (bulb change cost, heat and noise in the room, additional drop down screen,...).
I just don't see the point anymore unless you want that more 'movie room' effect and/or a much larger thrown screen than 75-90".
Our room is limited to about 75" before i run out of space for the speakers and neck craning so a flat screen large screen just makes more sense now.

I'm not an expert on projection but from what I've seen I don't see any reason to go that route unless you want 90-100+ sizes. My buddies new projection setup is pretty sweet but the picture on my Panasonic Plasma is better.

This is exactly what i am waiting for...


An OLED will be the perfect display, from what i have seen and read... however, i am waiting to see what the actual street price is.

Sorry, but with regards to video quality, you do get what you pay for. Best advise I can give you is to find someone with a HT that utilizes a mid-high end projector set up, light controlled room and properly calibrated. Only you can determine what looks good to you, much like audio.

The picture my Sony VPL 95 throws up on a 96" wide 2.35 screen is better than my 55" panny plasma, by far. But, it is in a light controlled room and I calibrate it with a meter and software. There's no way you can compare the calibration you get from a DVD and basic display controls than what you get using software and a meter to get a nice flat grey scale, gamma and gamut. I use a DVDO Edge for the Plasma and a Lumagen XS for the projector, and I have calibrated both. The XS definitely has an advantage over the Edge as well.

It always baffles me how some folks can justify spending upwards of twenty grand (or more) on audio in a tiny living room, with massive speakers and subs dwarfing a little TV, then go on to whine about spending five grand on the video portion of their A/V system.

What does that Sony PJ run?

I did mention I would need to do a dollars for dollars comparison. I know comparing a $1,000 PJ to a $1,000 tv isn't fair. I don't agree on your calibration as I used the same calibration tool for both my tv and pj and think the real issue is needing to spend at least 3k if not 5k to get a better quality image in the 106" range.

I tend to think a person should spent the same amount of money on sound as they do with picture so I basically agree with that argument.

Greg

Hey Greg,

I own the canadian futureshop equivalent (epson 8345)and I too notice it doesn't have the same level of detail in dark scenes as my panny plasma (TH-42PX600U.)

However, my panny plasma was considered flagship PQ at the time (2006) and the epson 8350 is considered a budget projector that is a great performer for the price. I would agree with Michael_d that you have to compare apples to apples and try a midrange projection with a matched screen to get optimal results.

Projectors for the time being are still far and away the best bang for buck once you get over 70" or so. Friends never say wow when watching the plasma. The projector however....

Plus, you can officially say you have a home theater with a PJ.

I would have to agree with Michael and Hellcommute when it comes to viewing large. With the right set up, having a very good quality projector and screen, that would lend itself to a better viewing experiences over all when it comes to the WOW and POP viewing aspect.

BTW, I found out the reason I could not calibrate was my Onkyo 809 receiver. Something was getting fouled up in the HDMI processing. If I ran the BD player straight to the Epson 8350 I could calibrate it just fine. If I routed through the 809 the image was dark or damaged in some other way. I performed a firmware upgrade and that fixed the 809. I still don't like the Epson 8350 image but at least now I am confident I have it displaying the best it can.

Greg

Ya, sometimes AVR's screw with the signal. I always turn that crap off if I can. The VP in almost any display will be better than those in AVR's.

The Sony was about 5K. There are quite a few models out now that are in the 2500 – 5000 range that are quite good, much better than what you have now. I am a stickler for inky blacks, so I tend to look at the JVC or Sony models. With JVC, you get the best native CR, and with Sony, native is still quite good, but they use a dynamic iris to achieve their dymanic CR. I moved from a JVC RS20 to the Sony and even though the native CR is much higher / better with the JVC than the Sony, I can’t really see a difference. The Sony handles motion much better than the JVC. The JVC however has a more ‘film like’ appearance. There is always a con for every pro it seams……

In regards to calibration, unless you are actually manipulating RGB to set color temp and grey scale from 5 – 100 % IRE, white luminance for Gama, and pulling in colors for both the primary and secondary color gamut, you aren’t really “calibrating” your displays. What you are doing is much better than nothing, or “winging it”, but it is not truly calibrating. You can pay someone to do it for you, at a rate of about $500 per display, or you can buy the tools to do it yourself. Steep learning curve, but not rocket science. I use both Calman and Chromapure. For ease of use, I give the nod to Chromapure. You can get a bundle for under $600. With projectors, you need to readdress grey scale as the bulb ages. I recalibrate mine about every 200 hours. http://www.chromapure.com/products-d3pro.asp

I always try to move folks towards calibration before buying new stuff. Sometimes a display just needs a little bit of love… And, if you get the tools to calibrate, they are yours for life and can be used over and over again. Money well spent.

Michael, when you write about light control, just how dark does it need to be for a projector to be effective?

I'll throw another bulb in my RP before I upgrade, but the idea of a large screen is very attractive.

Sorry, but there never is a simple answer with this hobby and electronics. But for the sake of this conversation, when using a projector, it's best to strive for a light controlled room / area, because ambient light WILL adversely affect the image. No way to get around that. Just the nature of the beast and your favorite topic, physics.

It a nutshell, really depends on the projector and what it's being used for. I've got a couple at work for conference rooms with over 3000 lumens and you can watch a game just fine with all the overhead florescent lights on... But a movie??? Neh...

In my HT, we usually turn the lights off when watching a movie, and it is VERY dark, with dark satin paint. But when watching a game, or TV or something where I don't really care to get 'the best' out if it, the lights are only dimmed a bit so that folks can come and go into the room without tripping on something.

A grey screen helps in rooms where there is a bit of ambient light, but they are not a magical device and can only do so much. But they do help..

A screen with some gain is also helpful, especially if ambient light is present. A grey or silver screen with some gain is the most beneficial for ambient light. But…always a “but”, screens with high gain (like the High Power) screen, have a very narrow viewing cone, and work best with the projector below the screen. They also tend to have “sparkles” or “hot spots”. The latest trend for better projectors is to just get a good quality neutral gain white screen.

What I advise folks to do with consideration to lumen output, is to first find out the projector's REAL lumen output, calibrated to 6500K. The real number will generally significantly lower than advertised (JVC seams to be the most honest). Then, multiply that by 65% for rapid bulb output reduction (bulbs loose roughly 30% within the first 500 hours of use). About the only way find this info, believe it or not, is forums. Sometimes the professional reviews will have this data, but not always. So you take that lumen output, and divide your screen size (square foot) into it to give you a FL (foot-lambert) figure.

Example:

Output (calibrated to 6500K) – 400
Screen size – 42” X 96” = 28 square feet
400 / 28 = 14.28 FL
Screen gain – 1.2
14.28 X 1.2 = 17.14

OK, so what FL does a person want??? Well, again, that depends. Some folks like a really bright image, some like a dim image. Some folks THINK they like a bright image because their projector has really crappy contrast, so brightness gives the impression of better contrast. But, generally speaking, 12 – 15 FL is about right for movies in a light controlled room. Sports, a bit more tends to work well; 15 – 18 FL or so.

Also, with respect to the projector’s lumen output, that measurement is taken with 100% light control, so keep that in mind.

Ideally, a person would have an idea of what FL they prefer. Then you figure out what screen size you want. With those two things known, you can then whittle down your projector choices, or expect to pony up for a High Power screen to get the FL you want.

Michael, I've never really looked into projectors or screens for my room, but thanks for a great overview / reference!

Yeah, that's cool, Mike. Thanks for posting all that.

Well don't be too appreciative, I'm quite possibly full of it...

Yeah, but that's a lot of words up there, so you've gotta be a little less full of it now, right?

I do most of my movie watching at night, so light control would not be an issue then.

I'm wondering if I could get away with a projector for all my needs, including browsing and casual gaming at other times. Probably a silly idea...

Oh, I can be appreciative of and amused by you and still think you're full of it.

Hmmm, sounds like Fred joined one of those new interactive, online, singles services. Make sure your avatar wears protection.

Ed the sock don't need no stinkin protection!

I suggest that you try turning you dynamic iris ON and spend some time with the calibration disc to see if you are maybe happy with what you have. The only reason to turn off the dynamic iris is if it is not designed that well and you are annoyed by the pumping from light to dark scenes. Turning the dynamic iris on should certainly help with both black levels and shadow detail (the two most important aspects of the picture). Since you have a plasma you are probably a little bit spoiled with good black levels and shadow detail (especially if you have a Panasonic or Poineer), so you may not be happy with your current projector. If that is the case you will probably need to look into a Sony or JVC projector. They seem to be running neck and neck in terms or price and performance and most other projectors can't get near them in terms of black levels and shadow detail in their price range. The Sony's have a very well designed dynamic iris that helps get the blacks, while the JVC does so without one.

My vote if for you to hopefully get a projector that you are happy with. Unless you can afford a 100" plasma, you just will not have that impact factor of a huge screen that you can get from a projector. But, like I said before, see if you can be happy with what you have. Epson makes some good projectors. They are supposed to be pretty good in terms of black levels and shadow detail, but only if you have it set up right (though Sony and JVC are probably going to be a bit better).

Dynamic iris will never be on again. The pumping as you call is not only annoying but a genuine half-assed attempt at getting a real contrast level. I am sure you know that a native resolution of 500:1 can be made to 50,000:1 by having the iris open and close. That is just too big of a distraction to enjoy a movie with. Give me an honest native contrast ratio of 10,000:1 and I'll be happy. I think my Sanyo Z4 clocked in with a native resolution of 1,500:1 and truth be told I don't know what my Epson is but I suspect no more than 3,000:1.

I'll go back to either a DLP or get a really big plasma or LCD next time around.

Greg

Greg,

Like I said, if you want black levels and shadow detail like that on your Panasonic plasma you will need to go with a JVC projector. The JVCs get that performance without the use of a dynamic iris.

The Sony projectors are very close in performance, but you would need to have the dynamic iris ON to get that performance. The good news about the Sony projectors is that they have one of the best implementations of a dynamic iris (in their price class). From reading professional reviews, it is nearly always mentioned that you can almost never catch any pumping of the iris. Only with bright scenes fading to black, or vice versa you may catch it, if you are looking for it.

I have not ever noticed any "iris pumping" with the VPL-95. Post calibration CR results were right about 20,000/1 with the iris disabled as well. Significantly lower native CR than the JVC RS20 it replaced, but in all honesty, I couldn't tell any difference in that regard. Actually, the Sony with iris enabled has better shadow detail. The Sony has higher ANSI C/R than the JVC too.

I own a Pioneer Kuro Plasma, so when I get a projector I think that I will need to go with either a JVC or Sony to get the good shadow detail and black levels that I am used to. Between the two I would probably go with a JVC though, since it would be nice to get that performance and never have to worry about catching any pumping of the iris (even if it very seldom).

I just went the movie theater a few weeks ago and I noticed some cross-hatched pattern in the bright area of scenes that had some both bright and dark areas of the image. For example, when there are mountains and a bright sky directly above it, I would see the cross-hatch pattern in the bright sky area. A few minutes later I realized that it was the weave of the acoustically transparent screen. The problem is once you notice it you cannot forget it and it distracts you from the movie.

This is why I want to avoid a dynamic iris if at all possible. Also, I don't want to have to worry about rainbows on a DLP. I was thinking that I would possibly get an acoustically transparent screen, when I get a projector, but I definitely will not now. Visual distractions on the screen are much more distracting that the compromise of going with a horizontal center channel speaker.

We are living in great times though. For around $3000 (maybe $3500?) you can get an entry level JVC or Sony with amazing performance. I just wish that projector manufacturers would start working on implementing LED lamps in the projectors rather than 3D and now 4k.

I have a Sanyo Z5 720p on a 100" screen in my mancave and a 56" LED backlit Toshiba in the living room. When people see the Toshiba they say,' Nice TV !'
When they see the projector,they say 'OMG ! Thats amazing !'
I notice the PQ difference from a critiquing point of view, but when it comes to 'experiancing' a movie, nothing can beat the immersion of a 100+" screen and a good sound system. To get the kind of contrast you desire, you are going to have to go into the $3000+ range of projectors. To the average joe our projectors will more than impress, but once you've been into this hobby for awhile you start to desire the higher end stuff and what our budget limits us too. I researched projectors for months before I settled on my Z5. It was the best bang for my dollar and room size and five years later I'm looking for something better with 3D. That means I gotta start saving my pennies and decide which of my hobbies my limited funding goes towards.
In summation I just say, enjoy the experience the huge picture your projector gives you and stop nit picking at the small stuff. There will always be something newwer and better that we wish we could afford or have.

I just did a quick check and saw that a 90” Sharp LED was running about $11k so I can’t even imagine what a 134” plasma would cost or weigh if even made. So to answer the original question no don’t see any likelihood of abandoning the projector.

I’ve never noticed “iris pumping” with either of my Panasonic projectors. The only time I notice it is when switching output modes.

Like ghost says picture size adds a quality all its own to the image. When fired up my first Panasonic my jaw hit the floor I was so amazed at the PQ. When I upgraded to a newer model Panasonic my jaw hit the floor again at how crappy the PQ of my first one was. So I have to say that Michael-d is spot on when he advises getting a mid-high range projector.

BTW I stuck with the Panasonic because it has one of the lowest input lag levels which is important for me since I over about 50% of my use it video/computer gaming with only about 5-10% dedicated movie watching the rest is just general computer use so lag became more important for me than just shadow detail and black levels but for primarily movie use I would lean more toward those specs.

Im very impressed by the Panny AE 8000 and will probably go that route once ive got the cash.