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#386753 - 12/08/12 03:13 PM M80's or different
audiodreamer Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 72
Loc: Okc
I am looking to upgrade my speakers. I currently have a pair of Def tech BP6's, with an onkyo 606 receiver. 90 watts per 2 channels.

I just purchased and am awaiting arrival of an Onkyo tx-nr809 135watts. There might be bigger and better, but this fits the budget. This leaves me at the moment with abetween $1500 and 2k, to spend on speakers.

This is primarily for home theater, but to enjoy music also.

I really want the Epic 80 800, but just a little out of my reach. Should I get the M80's and of course audition, and if the work piece the rest together as I can or do I go another route?

My room is almost 23'x13'x12' with vaulted ceiling. With an additional 23'x4'x8' behind seating.

What to do?
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#386755 - 12/08/12 03:30 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
audiodreamer Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 72
Loc: Okc
Trying to post some pictures,but don't quite understand. I don't see anything about file attachment.
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#386757 - 12/08/12 04:41 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
Ken.C Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17775
Loc: NoVA
I think you've got the right idea. I have 80s and an 809. Smaller room though.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#386758 - 12/08/12 05:16 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
cohesion Offline
local

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 211
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
Do you have the centre and surrounds yet? If not you might consider a VP180 and QS8's to start. Also look at the auctions and outlet for even better value. In my experience the finish is still great.

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#386759 - 12/08/12 05:22 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
INANE Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/04/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
I have a pair of M3's and M80's (and have heard M22's and M60's). I feel M80's are overkill for movies alone (if you have a sub). So unless you really think you'll be listening to music I'd recommend M22's.
_________________________
-Ben
HT v2.0 !
HT v1.0

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#386761 - 12/08/12 05:47 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
audiodreamer Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 72
Loc: Okc
I don't have a sub. That was a concern. If the m80's would be overkill with a sub then I may be ok. If I want to listen to music which does happen, I want to hear and enjoy every little nuance.
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#386762 - 12/08/12 05:54 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: cohesion]
audiodreamer Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 72
Loc: Okc
Originally Posted By: cohesion
Do you have the centre and surrounds yet? If not you might consider a VP180 and QS8's to start. Also look at the auctions and outlet for even better value. In my experience the finish is still great.


I can't do all at once. Am I to understand that I should have the center and surrounds before fronts?

Or if the M80's are that impressive on the low end, then I could skip the sub (for now) and make my next purchase be the center and then the surrounds
_________________________
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#386763 - 12/08/12 05:54 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
Gary Vose Sr Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 302
Loc: Casa Grande, AZ
If I were you, I would call Axiom and order the Epic 80-800(because that's what I really want) and place it in lay-away. By doing this you lock yourself in for the 10% savings up front rather than piecing the system together as you go, at several hundreds of dollars more later on.

I also have a lay-away which I'll be making the last installment on next month. I've spoken several times with Noreen at Axiom. She has stated to me that they(Axiom)would release speakers early as apart of that lay-away, as long as they have received more than sufficient funds to do so. This would allow you to get the M-80's shortly after placing your order, with other speakers to come later on as you deem them. This would allow one to have their cake and eat it to!

Also if you are not intending on ordering a custom finish, and can go with either of the standard finishes, you could save even more. Tell Noreen you would be interested in assembling B stock speakers, there by receiving an additional 10% off for greater savings.
_________________________
"When arguing with an IDIOT... make sure the person you're talking to... isn't doing the same."

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#386767 - 12/08/12 07:39 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
My room is almost the same dimensions with a vaulted ceiling and sized attached dining room and kitchen as yours and Iíve tried the M80s, M22s, and M2 and feel the M80s are the clear choice for both music and movies. On big thing to consider is how far you plan to sit from the front speakers, the farther (8-10 feet or more) the more you will want M80s.
Another thing to consider is whether you will be listening to music while in the other area attached to your theater. This is because listening to 2 channel music (not much need for surround if say youíre in the kitchen) may sound better with the M80s because you wonít need to use a sub to get good bass. This is important because placing your sub for the best theater experience may likely give you boomy bass in other areas like an attached room. Itís less likely this will happen with the M80s.

Yet another thing to consider is sub calibration/placement. Sub placement is tricky because of trying to get even bass throughout the listening area which is made more difficult the larger the range of frequencies the sub must cover. The M80s go down to 40Hz with authority meaning the sub may only need to cover below 40Hz. The M22s only go down to about 70-60Hz with any authority meaning the sub must these higher frequencies making it more likely you will get either boomby and/or anemic in some of your seats.

Something else to consider is how loud you plan to listen. The louder you want it especially if you seats are farther from you speakers the better the M80 will handle the midrange frequencies without any problems.

As you can see Iím leaning you toward the M80s based on my experience in a similar room.

OTOH I think that the EP500 is more than a match for that size room. I had to rearrange and fix some things in the kitchen because the EP500 shook and rattled things in there so much. The reality is that there isnít a whole lot of bass even in movies down below 20Hz (waterfall graphs on AVS aside). I know this because I have a bass shaker (Buttkicker) and with every movie Iíve ever watched (plenty of action movies) I have to set itís filter to play up to 40-50Hz, usually 50Hz to get much out of it so IMO the extra bass extension of the EP800 just isnít worth the premium. However, taking the money you save and getting a bass shaker for your seating (they run around $400-500 for a full setup) it IMO worth it since not only can it directly shake your seating (meaning the sub doesnít have to) it can do it even when the movie only has higher bass up in the 40-50Hz range but by shaking your seating it simulates earth shaking low bass even when it isnít there (and should be).

Iíve got to run but those are my quick thoughts.
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#386769 - 12/08/12 08:14 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I have a room similar in size to yours, just a little larger with many openings to other areas of the house. I have tried my M22s and they do a very admirable job and if that was all I could afford they would be fine by me. M60s are also a very fine choice with nice detailed sound. The M80s will give you all the extra little detail you could want from floostanding speaker, great midrange sound, low bass extension and the same highs as the rest of the Axiom line up as they all use the same tweeter.

I will second everything grunt said except I really like having my sub play below 20hz. In most cases if the sub is capable of playing below 20hz it is also capable of playing those higher frequencies with more authority, more SPL without straining, which equates to more shake and feel when required, just my opinion,YMMV.

I would recommend M80's and the VP180 or 160 initially, then add surrounds and finally a sub if you are going to have to piece this together, although you could add surrounds then the center, as a phantom center works very well unless you are listening off axis.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#386770 - 12/08/12 08:19 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: grunt]
audiodreamer Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 72
Loc: Okc
I'm curious how many have listened or owned other speakers from the most recognized, before you found Axiom? And at the time thought you had the end all be all. And then after hearing the Axiom brand were blown away?
_________________________
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#386771 - 12/08/12 09:01 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
cohesion Offline
local

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 211
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: audiodreamer
Originally Posted By: cohesion
Do you have the centre and surrounds yet? If not you might consider a VP180 and QS8's to start. Also look at the auctions and outlet for even value. In my experience the finish is still great.


I can't do all at once. Am I to understand that I should have the center and surrounds before fronts?

Or if the M80's are that impressive on the low end, then I could skip the sub (for now) and make my next purchase be the center and then the surrounds


I was suggesting adding the centre and surrounds to your existing Def Techs. That way you'd be able to enjoy all 5 channels right away. Forgot about the sub but with M80's leaving it for last is a reasonable option.

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#386774 - 12/08/12 10:07 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
real80sman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 1124
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Almost identical room here. I started with M80's and a 2-channel integrated amp. 50/50 listening between music & movies. I was absolutely thrilled. Then about a year later added a 5.1 receiver and a second hand sub. When watching movies, I ran it in "ghost centre" mode. It worked remarkably well. Eventually was able to buy the remaining speakers in my sig.

Buy the 80's, move the Def's to the back for surround duty, and run the Onkyo in "ghost" or "phantom" centre mode. You won't be dissapointed.
_________________________
Shawn

Epic 80/600 + M3's + Custom Finish Algonquin V3's

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#386775 - 12/08/12 10:28 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10388
AD, you're off to an excellent start on the new setup with the 809, which is overall excellent and would have plenty of power capacity for driving the M80s.

As to the speakers, since your budget is $1500-$2000, you shouldn't start off with a full 5.1 or 7.1 setup. The most essential elements of the HT would be the main speakers and side surrounds. The center speaker(the mains can form a "phantom" center)and sub can be delayed.

To stay within your budget I'd suggest the M80s plus QS8s at this time, which if bought through the Outlet at 10% off would run a little under $2000.

Edit: I'll add a comment, similar to Jason's, that when comparing quality audio components, terms such as "huge", "night-and-day" or "blown away" have no application.


Edited by JohnK (12/08/12 11:02 PM)
_________________________
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#386776 - 12/08/12 10:50 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Originally Posted By: audiodreamer
I'm curious how many have listened or owned other speakers from the most recognized, before you found Axiom? And at the time thought you had the end all be all. And then after hearing the Axiom brand were blown away?
I had Bose 201's before I found Axiom and the Bose were bloated, muddy and sounded pretty poor next to the M22s. I doubt you will find anyone say they were blown away if they owned speakers of a similar quality like Paradigm, Focal, Monitor Audio etc.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#386777 - 12/08/12 11:04 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
Ken.C Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17775
Loc: NoVA
Hearing Paradigm Monitor 9s (v1s?) in the same room as M22tis, although not back to back, the M22s were clearly much, much better (although comparatively lacking in bass, of course).
_________________________
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#386780 - 12/09/12 12:27 AM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
INANE Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/04/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
My friend recently brought over his pair of floor standing Paradigm's (sorry I don't recall the model). We spent some time switching back and forth with my M80's. In the end I think it's just a preference thing. He liked his speakers better, they were a bit less in the midrange and not quiet as forward on the high end. I am sad to say they easily had more low end than my M80's thou from an accuracy standpoint I'm not sure which won.
_________________________
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HT v2.0 !
HT v1.0

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#386784 - 12/09/12 09:40 AM Re: M80's or different [Re: INANE]
audiodreamer Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 72
Loc: Okc
Before ultimate electronics went under, although wasn't ready to buy, I was speaker shopping. I think Definitive just came out with the 8000 series just came out. A friend has some def's about 10 years old and I enjoy listening to music on his setup. However he is running everything electronics that I'm sure cost more than the speakers.

So I thought the def's were going to be it when go for broke. While doing shopping/ dreaming, I heard some focal's. probably the chorus line according to a local focal dealer.
I really liked the tonality of the focal over the def's top of the line.

Will I be as impressed with the m80's?
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#386788 - 12/09/12 12:07 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
When I was speaker shopping my final choice came down to a pair of Focal Chorus 807 monitors and the M80s both for around 1200/pair at the time, I didnít get a chance to listen to any Focal Chorus tower speakers. I preferred what I would call the light aery enveloping presentation of the Focalís for most music over the M80s at the time. However, a big portion of my music listening is Goa trance, and other techno/rave music which requires an authoritative midbass punch which no monitor is going to achieve. I also preferred the M80s for movies hands down, though I never mixed in a subwoofer when listening.

My main use was/still is home theater and I wanted speaker that were a non-reflective black (focals were shiny black). I suspected Iíd want a 3rd identical speaker for a center channel and the focals only came in pairs. I also preferred the selection of other speakers available especially the surrounds in the Axiom line for home theater use. So I ended up going with the M80s since the Axiom speakers did more of what I was looking for. Also over time I came to another realization as to why I preferred the Axioms when I read this review of the M2 bookshelf speakers:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0509/aperion_intimus_5b_axiom_m2v2_paradigm_v6.htm

Quote:

Sitting down to listen to the M2s also didn't blow me away...at first. I played one song, then another. Then another. Then an entire side. Then... hey, I haven't heard this album in a long time, I should put that on. What I realized, after a few hours of being pulled completely out of "speaker evaluation" mode, is that the M2s are the least colored speakers in the group. My notes from my listening sessions with the Axioms are suspiciously sparse: "nailed it", "impressively involving", "perfect?", etc. While the Paradigms may have sounded lusher with the string trio, or the Aperions may have delivered rock music with more punch, the Axioms lacked any of the other speakers' tonal caveats. If they weren't the best at every type of music, they were the best at any type of music. I'd like to add that the M2's neutrality extends all the way to the grilles as I thought I heard a touch more air in the highs with them off, but the impact they had on the sound was so minimal I wouldn't make a strong recommendation either way.


That same tonal neutrality extends across the entire line from M2 to M22 to M80 I know because I own all of them.

Actually the only speakers that came close to the M80 in overall presentation were some Paradigms and B&Ws at 2 to 3 times the price of the M80s respectively. I am still thinking about some day getting a dedicated music system for in another room but just donít sit in one place long enough listening to music to justify the expense. Also Iíve since learned much more about how room and room treatments including furniture affect the sound from speakers and know now that the curtains I put around the walls and the big chairs I got would have deadened the light aery sound of the focals.
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#386791 - 12/09/12 05:02 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: grunt]
audiodreamer Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 72
Loc: Okc
Well I had 2 do it. Walked into best buy to see if they were carrying the oppo yet. While there I was thinking if when I get the M80's I don't get the lfe's I want, what would be my least expensive choice for a sub. I realized that on the stand alone subs they have to be perfectly placed to sound good.

Then I listened to the def tech 8060 and the bass sounded great listening to same material, with same electronics.
Supposedly they will get down to 20hz.

As far as LFE is concerned how pleased will I be with the M80's?
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#386792 - 12/09/12 05:24 PM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7042
Loc: Canada
A quick visit to the Definitive Technologies website shows they list this speaker as 30 Hz to 30 KHz. They are not going to reach 20 Hz.
Further, since they are not listing this as a +- 3db rating, one can reasonably assume that 30 Hz will be closer to the -9 db point. For bass, this puts them in the same range as the M80.

For music, this is just fine. For movies, you need a sub.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#386800 - 12/10/12 12:58 AM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
INANE Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/04/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
I haven't been blow away but the bass in my M80's. It's good but you absolutely would want a sub for movies.
_________________________
-Ben
HT v2.0 !
HT v1.0

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#386801 - 12/10/12 01:15 AM Re: M80's or different [Re: audiodreamer]
Hellcommute Offline
veteran

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 148
Originally Posted By: audiodreamer
I'm curious how many have listened or owned other speakers from the most recognized, before you found Axiom? And at the time thought you had the end all be all. And then after hearing the Axiom brand were blown away?


Here's my advice, as I have been anxious in a similar scenario.

Forum opinions and magazine reviews can guide you, but mean nothing compared to your personal experience.

First grab a cd(s) that will be your reference for all your tests. I used Michael Jacksons history. Horns, strings, vocals, bass, percussion. It has it all. Who doesn't like mike? lol.

Then get some great floorstanders the hard way.... by listening to as many as you can in proper listening rooms. This may mean looking up your local dealers and dropping in. Take your time and enjoy the experience. Bring a friend. Resist the urge to buy if the salesguy dangles the sales carrot in front of you. "On sale only this week" talk is a common tactic to close the deal. When you hear your first "Wow" speaker rest easy. There are more like them. wink

You will soon get a feel for what 2k can buy in speakers compared to the deftechs you mentioned. Chances are your list will change considerably.

I heard B&W, Focal, Tannoy, Mordaunt Short, PMC, Mcintosh, Sonus Faber, Leema, KEF, Klipsch, etc. etc. Auditioning many speakers will help you become more critical in your listening. In the end you will appreciate your choice more as you will recognize their strenghts with experienced ears.

You may soon learn as I did that the big box stores can't compete with qualtiy brands in terms of sound for $. Low end high end murders flagship big box store stuff IMO. Don't pass up the opportunity to go listen to some greats. It's free. smile

I would also consider looking up locals that own axioms in your area for demo. That is one thing I didn't do when I bought and will always wonder where they would have stood compared to the others I tried.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=184230#Post184230

Cheers. Good luck!

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