Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater A new Axiom owner soon! I have questions...

Hello. Just wanted to introduce myself to the community. I've been lurking here for over 2 years. My name is Nick. I'm from B.C. Canada. I'm 29 years old.

I have been a stereo and home theater enthusiast ever since my dad gave me my first pair of speakers(wharfedale) when I was 10.

My dad and lots of his family are always buying and selling used equipment. I've been through a decent amount of used equipment in my life. Wharfedale, Cerwin Vega, B&W, Bose, Sound Dynamics, Polk, Paradigm etc.

The only new speakers I've ever bought were when I was 19. I bought Paradigm's monitor 90p's. I really enjoyed those speakers.

I've only owned a used subwoofer once. Subwoofers are new territory for me. I have found a lot of great information on this site regarding this.

My current setup is pretty lackluster. My fronts are Cerwin Vega D9's, my rears are some sound dynamic bookshelf type speakers and my center is an old paradigm. All used, mismatched equipment. The cerwin vegas pound pretty good, but they sound quite muddy in my opinion. I try to negate this by slightly tweaking the equalizer I have them running through.

I run these speakers with a Yamaha RX-V1070 and a Rotel RMB-1095. I'm in need of a new a/v receiver for sure. My dad just bought a pioneer and I'm seriously considering buying one myself. Any thoughts on this?

I'm very happy with my Rotel though.

Sitting in my basement I also have 2 pairs of Realistic Mach One's and couple paradigm bookshelf speakers. I'm not really using them at the moment.

Onto better things...

It's high time I treated myself to something new and fresh. If all goes as planned, I'm going to be starting a new job next month and receiving a pension payout from the old job. I'm going to outright buy the Axiom M80 system.

I'm really questioning the EP800 subwoofer though. What are guys thoughts on the SVS PB12-plus or the PB13 ultra when compared to the EP800? They seem to be built very solid and the reviews are amazing. I found a few comparisons to the EP800 through google and it seems the SVS is the way to go when it comes to price. I have no doubt the EP800 is great, it just seems it should be cheaper. I can afford the EP800 no problem, but it "seems" like I'm getting more bang for my buck with the SVS line, no?

This is the setup I see happening:

2 Axiom M80's
2 Axiom Qs8
1 Axiom vp180
1 SVS pb12 or pb13
Rotel RMB-1095
Pioneer VSX-42
Oppo bdp-103

later on, i'd like to add more power amps, perhaps emotiva?

Compared to the equipment I'm used to, how do you think I'll like a setup like this? Any suggestions or tweaks?

I love to listen to lots of old classic rock and acoustic material. I can appreciate any genre though, especially if it sounds incredible. I'm a huge fan of testing the limits of a system with movies too. I'm starting to collect a decent blu ray library.

Well, I just want to say thanks in advance. I'm very excited.

Welcome. I'm excited for you, and I'm sure we all would like your honest opinion on speaker comparisons since you have such a varied listening experience.

Have you considered Axiom's newest flagship speaker, the LFR1100?

I have been very curious about the LFR1100's now that you mention it

They look astonishing.

I was hoping to buy an entire 5.1 channel system for under 5500 taxes in. I could buy those and then later on add on, but knowing me, my gf and my kids, it would be years before it's finally pieced together.

I'm very torn because I'm a huge music buff(and a musician myself) and they seem incredible for that.

Mad:

I live in beautiful Comox - welcome. I wish that I had your budget, ha!!

I've had Axioms in my house since the early 1990s (my AX2s are still on 'Lifetime Warranty') so I'm not one to be continually selling & buying gear in a never ending quest to find sound utopia - it doesn't exist. Being more pragmatic than I should be, I buy something decent & enjoy it for a long, long time. My 3 sets of new Axioms work for me.

While the LFRs would also be a good option, perhaps a better bang for the buck might be one of Axiom's fine HT packages. Although I have an astounding EP-400 specialty sub for music only, I believe that those who own the EP500 are more than happy with its powerful performance - especially if you get 2 (highly recommended).

Again welcome aboard, I think that you'll find that this is a rather pleasant place to hang out...

TAM

ah, hello my fellow b.c.er

I buy gear because it's always such a good deal and I can't say no to more speakers/equipment. lol. I end up selling it because I run out of storage space

The only new product I bought, the monitor 90ps, I regret selling. I sold them because I was really behind on bills and young and dumb at the time.

This next system I plan on buying is definitely going to be my last purchase for many many years, so I want to make sure I can do the best possible.

You offer good advice. I'm eyeing up the Epic M80 system. Plus I've read rumours that a DSP unit will be available for the M80v3 and the Vp180v3

I'm starting to really lean towards a SVS pb13-ultra sub in place of an axiom sub though.

I'd love to hear from more people that think I should pay a little bit more and stick with either an axiom ep500 or ep800

Welcome Mad!
Just one quick thought about sub selection is that an Axiom sub can match the finish on the rest of the system, improving the WAF.

I haven't compared them, but anecdotally, many say that there is a "texture" to the Axiom subs that is missing with other subs, making them better for music.

Just about all subs from reputable companies are fantastic performers & are all competitive with each other. There is a lot of technology that produces awesome clean bass output .

My twin mid-fi 10" Velodynes in my HT shake & rattle my house with authority & often to annoyance - buzzing & rattling furnace ducting inside the walls & ceilings just doesn't sound very good. I wouldn't want anymore, but that's just me.

It often comes down to features, aesthetics & price point.

Axioms generally are thought to be very musical (whatever that means) & to me, my EP-400 has that in spades, especially considering its diminutive size. For me, I didn't want to live with another black cube in my living room.

For HT, a bigger sub or preferably 2 would be best...

TAM

Hello Mark

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I just sourced a SVS PB13-ultra from here in Canada, shipped to my doorstep all taxes included, would cost me $2266. It seems like it's built like a tank, great reviews, etc. But it only comes in black. I was hoping to get my Axiom in Cherry. The WAF definitely comes into play here. lol

She wasn't very happy when I told her the ep800 was nearly 4 feet tall. lol

Interesting on that note about "texture". I'd say the setup is going to be used more for music, so that's important to me.

I'll keep digging and researching as much I can. Again, thanks to all that have replied

hmm another person on the musical quality of the axiom sub. Thank you.

And I love earth rumbling, make my house fall apart, bass when it comes to HT. I'm very new to the subwoofer world.

I was reading that having two subs can be difficult to setup because it's difficult to get them in phase with the other speakers while trying to get them in phase with each other. Any merit to this?


If I was to go that route, I could get the Axiom M80 system with 2 ep500 subs for $5,432.39. Would these give me more thunderous bass then a single ep800 or a single SVS pb13-ultra? My understanding is that adding an extra subwoofer only distribute more even bass to the room.

Detractors argue that 'texture' is audible distortion.

At the volumes (up to 85 Db or so) that I listen to, which is so much lower than the max that the EP-400 can produce, I can't imagine that there is any distortion involved. My sub is not being stressed at all with the way that I use it for music only.

The musical abilities of this little box are simply outstanding & I'm more than happy to have purchased it - no regrets at all. I expect that its qualities would also be inherent in Axioms larger subs.

TAM

i've been doing tons of reading this morning.

I know I wouldn't be unhappy with the SVS pb13 ultra, but I'm going to go with the Axiom EP800 anyway.

My reasons

1) It'll match the rest of my axiom system. Great Waf points
2) The general consensus I've read is it's great for music, which is more important to me then HT
3) Apparently it can go real low, I crave an earthquake experience
4) it's supporting Canadian jobs
5) maybe there is better for less, but for all the above reasons I don't see why not to go with it.

Should be placing my order for the epic m80 system in the first week of March if all goes as planned. I'm traveling to Edmonton on February 1st and I already am in talks with someone on this board to go listen to his m80 system.

I'm very excited. In the meantime, I'll be trying to pick out a new a/v reciever. Any suggestions? I'm looking at pioneer. My power amp, a Rotel RMB-1095, says it can do 330w @ 4ohms all 5 channels driven. Will this be sufficient for now?

Mad, I'll throw in one more good reason: You get a 5% discount off the entire order if you order 5 items.... which you seem to have already decided to do!

yep, for sure, good call

I'm sold on it.

Right now I'm reading up on receivers and the difference between mcacc vs audyssey.

I'm leaning towards purchasing a Pioneer Elite series down the road.

I really do need a new one. My receiver is easy 10-15 years old.

To me, setting up 2 subs is easier than 1 due to the fact that both help to fill in if there is a hole or null in the seating position. That's why I went that way.

For my twin Velos, it was a no-brainer. Put them in their place, run Audyssey (or whatever) till it is happy & enjoy.

During my first Audyssey setup, with my Velo volumes set to 4 of 10, it was way out of whack at those levels - too high. After repeated runs, I ended up at 2.5 to get them down to the proper level range.

Although some people may have valid room problems that require more drastic intervention, most of what I see is that many tend to over complicate matters & end up chasing their tails.

I appreciate your desire for huge bass; however, I find that much of it in movies is excessive, unrealistic for what is on the screen & quite frankly annoying to times. One example is the slowly approaching steam locomotive scene near the end of '3:10 to Yuma'. I'm a bit of train nut & like to be around them at every opportunity; however, I've never experienced anything like that in real life. Way over the top, but entertaining I guess.

Just 1 man's view...

TAM

hehe interesting analogy with the trains, I work with trains at CN

I would agree it to be a tad unrealistic at times. But that same "unrealisticness", if you will, is how it's portrayed in the imax theaters. And aren't many of us trying re create the theater experience in the comfort of our homes?

It's a sensation, maybe over the top for some, but I enjoy it

You definitely raise some valid points. I've never thought of it like that. I think I'll start with one EP800 and if I find it necessary, down the road I'll add another or maybe even a ep500 will suffice.

Mad, do you have a preference...sealed(EP800) vs ported(SVS)?

no preference. I've heard both, but have owned neither. Not a lot of experience with subwoofers.

What would you recommend?

You can't go wrong with either imo. Have you checked out Funky Waves? they/he is located in southern BC and makes some serious subwoofers too...

One advantage of going Axiom sub, say an EP500, is there are so many different vinyl coverings for it. I got mine about 2 years ago in custom vinyl called Cinnamon Beech. It goes very good with my hardwood floors. All my other speakers are black and I'll have one on the back wall that will be white.

Mad Chesser, I purchased my set of Axiom speakers last month and I went with 2 M80's,1 VP180, and 4 QS8's. I already had an SVS PC12-PLUS which I liked a lot so I decided to keep it instead of selling it and getting the EP800. I can say that the SVS subs are very good in my opinion and they do work well with the Axiom speakers. I also considered going with cherry for my speakers but I ended up sticking with black. They look good with my SVS sub and black with match everything, so it looks good with my furniture. My Sub is the cylinder instead of the box and it is about the same height as the M80's so they look good next to each other.

hey thanks for that, took a quick peek and they seem pretty nice. I will do some more reading on them. Thanks for the link.

cat: Hey, that i didn't know about the covers. I'm going to look into that. thanks That definitely contributes to pleasing the wife

colson: Very nice. Sounds like a great setup. I think I've ultimately decided on getting the EP800.

I might change my mind by the time I order, but we'll see. I'm pretty certain I want the ep800 now. I know I won't be unhappy even if it costs me a bit more then other comparable subs.

How are you enjoying the m80's?

I love the M80's they sound great. I replaced a 23 year old pare of Bose 601 series 3 speakers. I was definitely in need of an up grade. On a side note I also replaced my 10 year old Pioneer receiver with a new Pioneer Elite SC67 which I am also loving.

You will definitely need a new receiver to handle all of the wonderful sound options that are available today - too many actually.

Last year I snagged a Denon AVR from BB Canada on line - it was the last one on clearance with a list price of $800 that I got for $450. Bargains can be found if you watch & wait.

I've never owned a Denon before & after I figured it all out, I am really happy with it. These beasts, regardless of brand, are really quite complicated these days, so expect a learning curve & some frustration, ha! Lots of assistance can be found here though.

Funk Waves has a great reputation as well. I believe that they are on the Sunshine Coast - a misnomer at this time of the year...

TAM

Thanks for all the input

My dad just bought the pioneer sc-67(very nice amp you got yourself colson :)) and I've got to play around with it a bit here and there. Like you say, wow, there is an incredible amount of options on these receivers nowadays.

I'm definitely going to take you up on your offer in regards to assistance on these boards lol

After I drop this 5 grand, I'm going to have to start to sell all my old equipment and I'll be putting that towards an Oppo player and a new receiver.

I'll potentially be selling 5 pairs of speakers(10 total), one sherwood power amp, my yamaha receiver and two old equalizers.

Now on that note, an external equalizer will not be necessary anymore hey?

Welcome, Nick.

No, with Audyssey or MCACC, you don't need an external EQ.

I think Denon and Onkyo are delivering really good value nowadays. I'm predisposed to the Audyssey system rather than something proprietary, though. YMMV. Shop for features and price.

I think you'll be really happy with the Axiom setup you've chosen.

Some years ago, I had the chance to hear - back-to-back, in the same room - an EP600 and PB13-ultra. Obviously, those are not the current models you're looking at, but it was a very interesting experience. I have an older SVS PB12-ISD. I think SVS subs are terrific.

AND there was a definite signature sound to the SVS. To me, it was heavier and fatter. Though the test was blind, all four of us could easily identify each sub. The Axiom was drier and more nuanced. I preferred the EP600 and that's what the forum member elected to keep after extended auditions of both in his home. Both were stunning.

I believe that Axiom sub design philosophy places a higher priority on lower distortion than some other manufacturers. There is a general belief that - at very low frequencies - distortion is less audible and/or less objectionable. I'm less sure.

How big is your room? How many people are watching movies with you? Listening to music with you?

You might start with an EP500 and see how that goes. Axiom will let you upgrade during the trial period for free. If the EP500 doesn't go low enough, you can get an EP600 or EP800. If it doesn't cover enough area in your home, you can get a second one. It's pretty hard to model/predict how your ROOM will interact with the rest of your system.

Have fun!

Thanks for the great reply.

I'll definitely be picking up either a Pioneer, Denon or Onkyo. Sometimes the sale prices at even our local stores can be quite good for all 3 of these. I just have to decide if Audyssey or MCACC is the way to go.

Is it true that Audyssey is easier to use, yet your either accept it or turn it off...no real fine calibration is available?

I have no real experience with either besides toying around for a few minutes with my father's Pioneer sc-67.

I really enjoyed your take on the subs. I'm pretty sold on getting an EP800. I'm sure I'd enjoy a SVS as well, but for all the reasons listed in an earlier post, I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with the EP800.

If I invite friends over, 3 to 4 people probably will be the max. Though generally, it will be just me and the wife. I don't have a dedicated home theater room yet, for I rent, so I can't quite make it mine. I plan to buy eventually and I'm looking forward to embarking on creating a true HT room in the basement. This is a dream of mine. I'm hoping to get many years out of this system I plan to buy.

The main living room is 16X12X8, but to the left of the living room is a big open dining room that leads to the kitchen. The living room and kitchen are seperated by a 6 foot wall. And then the "back wall" of the living room has 3 open archways that look over the stairways leading to the downstairs and entrance. It's all hardwood laminate flooring

I do know that I particularly like the acoustics of this room. We just moved here and the sound from my system from one house to another is astonishing. The sound sounds less muddled and more free to "breathe" then in the last house. I don't get any nasty reverberation or anything which is nice. I don't have to turn it as loud to feel the same experience as in the last house. It seems to sound clearer and get loud easier if that makes sense

For music, it's usually just me. But once in a blue moon, I like to throw a big party and for example, last Halloween I had about 15 people over at one point. The wife and her girlfriends starting putting all sorts of heavy club songs on the playlist...my cerwin vega D9's handled that crap great lol

On moments like those, it's rare mind you, I like to show off. Especially if I've been drinking I'm hoping to impress people with the M80 system with a EP800.

But more then that, I'm looking for something I can't describe for ME. A quality of sound imaging, quality and pristine highs with warm mids, incredible deep, smooth, but not excessive bass. I want to be excited about my music again. I want to hear things I haven't heard before with my large music collection.

I should also note that at times I love to hear my music VERY loud. I will tweak my equalizer and try to push my cerwin vegas to the very edge of what they are comfortable with, back it off just a tad, and listen to that level comfortably for awhile.

I should note that I've only blown a fuse on my speaker once in my entire life and I have never damaged any of my speakers or equipment...yet

I'm no audiophile. I'm a huge enthusiast hoping to expand my knowledge and experience a little further. And when I have everything dialed in and sounding incredible, I want to show it off so others can go buy it and experience it for themselves.

I definitely want to help audition these for people. There is no one in my area.

Just looking online, costco, for a new tv stand

Oh crap. Another "Nick" on the forums. What is this place coming to?

(welcome by the way and congrats on the new system)

lol we own the joint do we?

I fortunately have my 3 setups in irregularly shaped rooms. While it is more aesthetically difficult to set up systems to make them pleasing to the eye, more often than not, nasty things like bass standing waves & nulls tend not to be as prevalent.

Everything is a trade-off it seems...

TAM

Hi Mad, looks like you're gonna have a killer setup soon! The only things I would mention that I did not see when reading this thread are:
1 - have you considered a vertical center channel? - the VP180 is awesome from what everyone says (have not heard it myself), BUT 3 vertical M80's across the front would be ideal and slightly cheaper, assuming you have the height for it. I started with a horizontal center and switched after a year or so to a vertical and am happier for it.
2 - EP800 orientation - you mentioned the height, but if it helps with the WAF or placement, note that you can order it in a horizontal configuration.

FWIW I have a Pioneer Elite (SC05) that has been going strong from day one and very much like these receivers. Almost all of my minor complaints with it have been addressed in the new models.

I also have experience with both SVS PC13 Ultra and my Axiom EP500. Based on this experience I think you'd be happy with either, but I am jonesing for an EP800 upgrade myself one day.

Good luck with the upcoming bonus.

Cheers,

Nick, welcome. Your proposed list of components is excellent with one clear exception: the Pioneer VSX-42 wouldn't be suited to your use. Justifiably you're satisfied with your Rotel 1095 and plan to continue with it. It has more than enough maximum power output for any reasonable use with the speakers you're getting. The problem is that the VSX-42 doesn't have the pre-outs to feed it voltage.

A receiver with pre-outs should be chosen and my suggestion would be to also select a receiver with Audyssey auto-calibration and room correction systems. While some manufacturers include their proprietary systems for this(e.g., Pioneer MCACC and Yamaha YPAO), it's notable that manufacturers such as Denon, Integra, Marantz, NAD and Onkyo have selected Audyssey in preference to their own proprietary technology. An important factor is the lack of specific correction to the sub channel(possibly needing it the most)in MCACC, but which Audyssey performs. My suggestion would be one of the Denon or Onkyo units. If you were buying in the U.S. I'd pick the factory refurbished Onkyo 709 for about $450 from Accessories4less, but unfortunately they can't ship to Canada. A suitable Denon or Onkyo unit would be available in Canada, but at a substantially higher price.

One comment you made is a bit puzzling, i.e., that later you'd "like to add more power amps". There appears to be no good purpose to this since your 1095 is more than sufficient for your 5.1 setup, and if you're considering back surrounds in addition to your QS8 sides, or front height/width speakers, whatever full-featured new receiver you get would be able to drive them without difficulty.

Hello and thanks for the great reply.

You are totally right. Later on after I posted that, I started looking at the receiver's specs more closely and realized exactly what you stated, no pre outs. Thanks for letting me know. I would have felt stupid if I bought that. lol

If I go Pioneer, it will have to be the SC series. They are pricy.

I find your take on Audyssey very informative. I would think sub level is important too. I will definitely start looking around. Thanks again. Great input I'm getting here.

Onto the "power amps" comment I made earlier. My Rotel is rated at 330w @ 4ohm. While this is more then sufficient, I've always liked to have lots of head room. Maybe it's a placebo effect, but I've always swore it makes a difference. Maybe it just makes my penis feel bigger. haha. In either case, I was thinking on either a 2 channel or 3 channel power amplifier, dedicated to the fronts. Another company I'm new to, emotiva, seems very nicely priced. Xpa2 seems really nice.

It's definitely not a must have. I'll be very happy with the Rotel for now. Just something for down the road, perhaps.

I need to focus on a new receiver and a new player. I've heard great things about Oppo on these boards. Any others I should look at?

For the type of receiver I'm looking for, I can expect to pay around a 1000. ouch. lol Here's one example perhaps?

http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/d...3b6607a297ben02

I should make note I'm looking for a 7.2 channel for future expansion. All these speakers and equipment are literally something that's going to be with me for a long long time, which is why I'm being a little OCD about it all

cb919: no, I never considered a 3rd m80 for a center. How is this cheaper? I think for general aesthetics and WAF, I'll be going horizontal, the vp180. Thought about even downgrading to the vp160 to save some space, but I doubt it.

So far as adding/changing amplifiers you would have to double your power to even have the system sound like it gets louder, so in your case you need to look at 600W or more @4ohm amps and even then it is only a few dbs louder; not really worth the dollars spent IMO. When/if your present amp breaks down this would be the time to upgrade.

FYI, the VP160, IMO, isn't really a downgrade, it has a different configuration that gives you better off axis listening, so if oyu are going to have seats that are outside of the front main positions you might want to consider the VP160.

So far as the avr goes I would look for the features you want and go with it, the amp power doesn't matter for you as you are strictly using it as a pre/pro. I really liked the feature set on the Onkyo 818, recently on sale around Calgary for under $900. It has Audyssey XT32(cheapest price point for this I believe), networking ability etc. The amps inside this unit are no slouch either.

hey, thanks for the heads up on the vp160, i'll definitely have to look at the more closely. thanks.

I found a Onkyo on Ebay

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Onkyo-TX-NR709-7-...=item4ac050112a

100 for shipping, but still way cheaper then what I'd pay up here

Thanks for all the other tips. I agree I'll take a look at that onkyo

You all have been so helpful in guiding me through this!

I will know by the end of next week if this purchase is going to happen for sure. Crossing my fingers

cb919:

Just realized why you meant an m80 would be cheaper. I don't think the wife would like it though. lol

Have you seen this, it should be free delivery

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/onky...19e41660b42en02

or this

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/onky...d5744ba64a6en02

oh wow, I really like the price point and features of the first link. That's going on my favourites. Thank you

Mad, I only have a moment but want to throw one thing out there:

Buy your speakers for long-term; they're likely going to be amazing you 20 years from now.

Electronics, on the other hand, are changing constantly. I, too, got into this at a young age.... though I',m pushing 50 to your 30. But receivers USED to be something that you could hold onto for 10-15 years. Now, the standards and codecs are changing much more quickly.

I see your point about wanting to buy equipment that will work in a future theater of a purchased home, but I think you MAY wish to consider buying a minimum receiver with the features you want (yes, make sure it has pre-outs) because there's a good possibility that if you buy a house, build a theater and then want to equip it perfectly, there will be a "better" receiver or pre-pro that you might want at that time.

I have to admit, being a bit old-school, that I find it disheartening that I want to replace my $1200 receiver that I just bought a few years ago! (not enough HDMIs, no 3-D, etc.).

The good news is that the Rotel amp should add capability to whatever receiver you buy now.....or ten years from now.

I agree with Mark. Speakers will far outlast your electronics. My HT is only 3-4 years old and was built from scratch with all new equipment, but I was tempted by Jay's (JakeWash) Best Buy link. Not thinking of changing my speakers at all, except for adding an EP800 , but I would like some of the updated features in the new AVR's even though mine is going strong!

I understand about WAF and space for the VP180 or VP160, just wanted to point out the vertical center option to you as I don't think most people when purchasing are aware of or consider it seriously. I know I had never even heard of the concept when I 1st bought my Axioms. Center channels were horizontally arrayed and that's all there was to it, never considered there was an alternative.

BTW, the QS8's make for an incredible surround experience.

I hope you get to place that order soon!

I've been a bigger fan of the Pioneers and MCACC than most around here. I had a Pioneer Elite and got used to it first. Then decided to upgrade to a Denon3312ci. I've never got the sound the way I like it using Audyssey. Audyssey is not as tweakable as MCACC. If you've grown used to having an equalizer, MCACC might be the better way to go. They both have an equalizer that you can tweak manually. The difference is with Audyssey, you have to turn the benefits of Audyssey off before you can use the manually adjustable EQ, with MCACC, you can leave the MCACC turned on and adjust away. All a matter of preference, of course. I seemed to have more runaway bass with the Pioneer creating bass heavy spots near the corners of the room. I have a Pioneer SC-67 on a delivery truck headed my way. I'll have it by the end of next week. Then I can a/b test the Denon vs Pioneer all I want. It might even surprise me an find I like the Denon better. Won't know until a couple of weeks from now.

If you had kept that tube TV like I told you to, you wouldn't have that problem now would you.

On subs:

PB13 ultra +- 3db 19-150 Hz., $2,200 to your door
EP800 +- 1db 13-150 Hz., $2400 to your door

On performance, I'd say the EP800 wins hands down. Size is another story, but if I had that kind of money to spend on a sub, I would go for the EP800.

Edit: Oops, got the price wrong on the PB13 ultra, its 2,000 I would still spend the extra on an EP800 if I was going to spend in that range. 'To your door' in Canada is probably a bit more.

Very good replies from everyone,

Mark: What you said makes complete sense. I never looked at it like that. I definitely won't be acquiring another sub(so I don't need a .2) for awhile, and I won't be acquiring extra surrounds for awhile either. When I have my own home, I'll begin to research for a good a projector and screen, lighting and the like. That will be when I start running a 7.2 system.

That is at least 5 years away and like you say, that will be the time to buy what's hot and new on the market.

So on that note, all I really need for a receiver is:

1) 5.1
2) hdmi, which is a given
3) Audyssey or MCACC
4) pre outs
5) support for all the good formats/codecs
6) a bonus would be support for .flac files

Looking around this morning online, it seems tough to find something cheap with pre outs. The Onkyo NR717 seems to be my best bet so far. If anyone can give me a few more links with all the above features, it would be very helpful

cb919: I would have never thought about a vertical center unless you brought it. I would love to experiment with that and hear the difference in the front soundstage. On your comment about the QS8's; I'm very excited. Besides an old bose system I owned, I've never owned dedicated surrounds. Everything I've ever used for surrounds wasn't designed to be a surround and is at least 15 years old. I'm sure the technology for surrounds has taken quite a leap in that time.

My father has went ape shit with a brand new Cerwin Vega system. He has the 2 xls215's for mains but what I found overkill is he bought 2 cmx210's for rears. He also bought 2 XLS 12S subwoofers. He's got one of their biggest center channels, don't remember the model. Bought the Pioneer SC-67 receiver.

Is having a tower speaker beneficial in anyway for a rear surround speaker.

He's got all this jammed into a tiny square living room. lol he's broken my mom's china, detatched siding on the outside of the home, and even popped the big windows out of their seals. lol it's ridiculous, but awesome.

Cat: I would love to hear your comparisons in a few weeks See, I like the idea to be able to "tweak". I enjoy messing around with stuff like that. On that note, someone else mentioned that with MCACC you can't adjust sub levels and that, that adjustment is most important in some cases. What's your take on this? Right now, I'm leaning towards MCACC because I don't like the "take it or leave it" concept of Audyssey.

fred: Thanks for your take on the subs. The PB13-ultra seems like such a heavy hitter, built like a tank. I like that But the EP800 seems great too, made in canada(supporting canadian jobs is important to me), will match the rest of the system and when I hear people like yourself say "on performance, it wins hands down"...I know I will be VERY happy with it. Thank you

one a side note, Sonicboomaudio said with all taxes and shipping, to my door it would be $2266 for the pb13-ultra

This is bad...I could be working myself up for EXTREME disappointment. lol

I hope not. I find out by the end of this coming week if I got the new job. It's looking pretty good from what I've heard from sources close to the hiring process. Other people who they didn't want have already received their rejection letters. I have not. And they have 10 positions to fill and their were only 16 interviews.

If I got the job, the pension payout from old job is certain. This purchase is certain if I get the job

Crossing my fingers

Here's an interesting thread I found regarding Audyssey VS MCACC

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1050097/official-denon-avr-1909-789-thread/3180#post_15252779

Welcome Mad, a couple of things worth considering would be if you were going with either of the standard finishes, it would be more economical to purchase B stock for your set up. This is what I chose to do for my so to be system . I inquired with Noreen at Axiom, about the general defects or flaws which is typically associated with B stock speakers. Noreen stated to me that more times than not, it's either visible excess glue about the drivers, or nicks or scratches on the drivers themselves. These are very small blemishes that can't be detected from greater than four feet away with the grilles off.

In my case I was debating between a projector, or a Mitsubishi 92" screen in my family room. Funds and future projector technology will make me wait before I go down that path, so the 92" is in my immediate plans. If I had gone with the projector though, I was going to go with dual M22's as my center channel. As cb919 has stated, some lean towards a vertical over a horizontal if possible. You have a capable power amp which would allow you to wire in series using only one channel. When it comes to audio able sounds, these bookshelf speakers are sup positively giant for their size. It would be possible to toe them out a bit for some great in room dispersion. You won't get a great deal of bass from this center channel set up, but in my option it won't be missed. Let the sub or subs do the heavy lifting. The M22's will then be responsible for clean, clear, crisp dialog which it can easily handle.

This option may or may not work for you in your space though. The price for two M22's would be much less than purchasing lets say a VP-180. This along with the first option, would save you several hundreds of dollars. Which you could then pocket, or might be used for that second sub you might be wanting. Any way you chose to go I believe you have gotten some great advice here on this thread. Good luck and good listening.

If dual M22s won't fit, then dual M2s just might.

Virtually the same sonic signature as the M22s & two of them would be more than adequate output wise...

TAM

Hello hmm interesting take on the M22's for a center. Has anyone else on this board done something like this?

And you say this can be properly wired with my power amp? Can you explain how I would do this with only one center channel input on my Rotel?

Just like speakers are designed and designated to be "surrounds" doesn't the same hold true for center channels? I'm open to learning more. As I see it right now, the vp160 or vp180, for example, are designed specifically for center channel duties, designed to work harmoniously with m60s or m80s to create a seamless soundstage.

I like the idea of saving money on a center and putting it towards the new receiver I need.

On your note about B stock. I'm very ocd when it comes to nicks, scratches, glue, etc. I thought about it, and my logical mind says to buy b stock. Unfortunately, my logical mind isn't strong enough :P I won't be able to do it. lol I've already budgeted for the system new.

On your cable take the positive lead to the positive binding post on one of the M22's. Then the negative lead to the negative binding post of the second M22, then add a jumper cable from the negative to the positive binding posts of the two speakers.

Well, I've made a personal decision that I want Pioneer's MCACC.

Base model to have pre outs is the sc-61. Listed for $1399. I already had an offer from a local store for $980.

Once I get word whether this is happening or not, I'm going to begin selling all my speakers and equipment, work some overtime and purchase the amp before the Axioms even arrive.

My minds made up. I know I'll be happy with it. Thank you to all. This thread is still opening my mind to great ideas. I can't thank you enough.

Now I'm trying to research this whole center channel thing.

So far, future system will be

Pioneer sc-61
2 M80's
1 Vp160
2 QS8
1 EP800
PS3
Oppo bdp-103

But right now, debating on the center channel...

I've never heard of that. This is considered safe and common?

Very cool. I'm using a paradigm bookshelf speaker for a center right now. I'll mess around with two of them and give it a try today

Yes, think of it as just jump starting a car, the same principal here. You start out on the positive lead on the running vehicle, and then return to the negative lead on the running vehicle(starting out on the positive lead on the amp, then returning to the negative lead on the amp).

My 3 sets of Axiom speakers & Axiom stands are 'B Stock'.

With mine, flaws if there are any, are virtually invisible. I wondered why they were classed as 'B Stock' in the first place. Axiom is quite anal about this & perhaps they use big magnifying glasses during their inspection process.

Good way to save some bucks IMHO as it is to buy a HT package...

TAM

I agree, just leave the grilles on and forget about it.

I didn't see any flaws with the grills off.

I must retract my last somewhat - I found a small flaw on 1 of my M3s. They were 'B Stock' Real Wood veneer that I won on auction as the only bidder (when that was happening at Axiom). I realized a tremendous savings - over $200 for the pair. I found it in the veneer (undoubtedly from the veneer factory) after protracted, close inspection under strong light.

Again, I was astounded that this was considered to be 'B Stock' - absolutely invisible in its normal placement in the room. I would defy anyone to find it...

TAM

Welocome to the forum Nick
See you on the 2nd

You are auditioning his system? Baaad idea. You're going to need a LOT more $$$ after you see his real rosewood system.

I run dual M2 centers (one above, one below the display). It works very well and they integrate well with the M80.

You are correct, though, that center channels are purpose built. In this case the issue they address is form factor. Most people cannot accommodate a vertical center (let alone two) in their HT setup.

Thank you I'm looking forward to this opportunity

edit: just found your link to your setup...drooling. Nice to see it. Wow, I can't believe how incredible that setup is. Wow. Can't wait

fred: I didn't realize he had the rosewood. I was already drooling over that on the axiom site. The wife was too. Great WAF points. Just can't afford it.

Thanks for the info on the center. I can't accommodate for it right now, but in my future setup for sure. I'll definitely have to look at that option down the road

This page has the latest pic of my system. It has 3 m22's across the top, with a second set across the bottom, except the bottom center is an in-cabinet Vp160.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=354217&page=69

My Sc-67 is $1330 from Amazon. I'm sure you can pick up an Sc-61 for much less.

wow i like So these new pioneer amps have no problem eq'ing multiple center channels?

amazon.ca, bestbuy.ca both have no pioneer elite besides the vsx series.

found this on ebay

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NEW-PIONEER-ELITE...=item416f86032a

It would be 100-200 cheaper to buy it on ebay, compared to my local store.

That's same price as I was thinking. It was the $1300 you mentioned. It i was paying $1300, I'd get the 67.

So far I've had no trouble driving double mains and center at high volume with the Pioneer or the Denon.

You are in for a treat, he also has Denon's flagship separates running his system. If you're heading 3hrs south you can drop by my place.

Now that you mention it...I'm headed to edmonton for feb 1, stag party(im the best man), then on the 3rd, the wedding party will be driving to canmore for the wedding. Ill be driving solo I would love to arrange something

Looking forward to your visit. I'll probably learn a few things from you and I hope the audition goes well.

Nick, yes a vertical M22 makes a fine center channel speaker. The only sense in which some speakers are "designed specifically" for center use is the the one Fred has mentioned: the horizontal form factor meets the aesthetic or space requirements of many(not me). A vertical speaker can have an inherently wider and smoother horizontal dispersion.

I didn't catch what led to the "have no problem eq'ing multiple center channels" comment, but there's only one center channel. If more than one speaker is used in the center channel any calibration or room eq settings have to go through the one channel to the speakers identically. If the speakers are the same model and positioned similarly in relation to the listener, this works quite well.

I'm flattered you say that, but I don't have much to teach. Just a big enthusiast. From the looks of your setup, I'd say it's quite the other way around. I can't wait to chat to you about your setup

It'll go great. I'm told I'm a great people person. It'll be a fun visit together I'm sure. Anytime two enthusiasts can get together and listen to great equipment, it'll always be good I have absolutely no friends I can talk passionately about stereo with. My close friends all laugh at me being "obsessed" with stereo. lol

I try to tell them I'm a greenhorn when it comes to HT. I don't even scratch the surface of "obsessed" lol

That's kind of what I was getting at I think. That makes sense.

Still, for some reason my mind is trying to convince me that the center channel needs to be "horizontal" for wide dispersion to mix properly with the left and right mains properly. In typing that, I realize it's false. But the idea of multiple bookshelf speakers for centers is a very new notion for me.

I definitely believe you. I should strongly consider a pair of m22s for centers.

Not necessarily a "pair". A single one works well.

yep for sure, I hear what you are saying. Thanks I'm browsing the site right now

edit: on that note, I think the wife would much more appreciate a vp160 or vp180. lol she doesn't seem to keen on the idea

She's not to happy about the ep800 either, but that's a must for me

So quick question to all the wonderful people here...

For a center channel, which would sound better with the M80's, in your opinion(obviously the room plays a factor, so this is just best guess)

1 or 2 M3 bookshelves below tv
1 or 2 M22 bookshelves below tv
1 Vp160 below tv
1 vp180 below tv

There is a small love seat pretty much directly in line with the tv, about 8 to 10 feet back, but people also sit on the large couch which is along the long wall to the right of the love seat. So there will be off axis listening.

Since the 5 1/4" mid-range of the M22(and VP160)is the same as that in the M80s, that would be a preferable match. Note that the VP160 configuration can be viewed as a vertical center flanked by woofers to handle the bass.

If the center would have the tweeter at a position significantly different from ear level, it would be good to tilt it slightly so as to point at the ears.

Nick Send me a PM and we can try to set something up while you are in Alberta. I have M22's and my VP160 that you can have a listen to, this should give you a better idea of what everyone has been talking about.

I don't think it is necessary or even a good idea to have TWO bookshelf speakers below the TV unless you had a very wide room and could meaningfully separate them horizontally from not only each other but also the left and right speakers. When people here talk about using a pair of bookshelf speakers for center duty, they are almost always referring to one above and one below the screen.

Both the VP160 and 180 are terrific speakers. The best match for the M80s is another M80, but that's not practical for most people. I'd pass on the M3 and get a single M22 as John suggested if your SO is vertical center tolerant.

I recently changed from a VP100 to an M2 center and like it very much. I owe the forum a report on that.

The thing you need to understand is that the principles of sound reproduction aren't inherently different for the center. If a horizontal array was "best" then we'd have all kinds of main pairs produced that way. A narrower baffle is actually much better for treble dispersion and the only reason center channel speakers look the way they do is to more easily integrate with the form factor of commonly surrounding objects.

To easily fit under/over TV's, which is the main reason why it is so difficult to get vertical designs to 'work' as a center.

Exactly.

Very sound logic tom. That makes sense.

if vertical isn't a problem, you feel a M80 > M22 > a vp160 or vp180?

I've been reading so much lately.

Found a particularly exhausting thread to read

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1337283/any-thoughts-on-axiom-audio-speakers/90

Ian and brent actually are posting responses. I like how they get involved with the discussion, you can tell they are passionate about what they do and you can tell they are bothered by what some of the people are saying in that thread.

I felt one particular post by Ian owned them. lol


What I keep hearing about in that thread, aside from all the technical stuff is that the M80s, to some, are excessively bright.

I read in one good review for the m80s, that the high end seemed slightly shrill, but after being worn in, they fell in love with them...short version.

Your take on the high end of the M80's?

edit: with further reading, I kind of answered my own question

"In closing I would like to touch on this Axiom loudspeakers are all bright comment that a few individuals have mentioned in this post; one of them numerous times. We cannot control or even begin to surmise on every person's individual experience and/or motives when listening to and commenting on our products. We would love it to be 100% positive but it will not be. There will always be some small percentage where it just doesn't work out for any number of reasons. That is why we have a 30 day return policy. Instead we monitor for any sort of repetition of improvement suggestions. We then check them against our lab results and in double blind listening tests against competitor product. Last September we had a 30 year anniversary get-together party here at Axiom. It was really fun by the way. We had factory tours, engineering seminars, and wrapped it up with a live band playing dockside. One thing we did do was have a blind listening test running for the entire day and anyone could sign up for a time to participate. It was between an Axiom and a B&W. We had 26 people participate. I just went through all the comments and found that there were seven comments that contained words like bright, harsh, and sibilant. Six of these comments were a criticism of the B&W and one was of the Axiom. This is consistent with the results we get in other competitor double blind listening tests we do. Axiom products are not overly bright by any comparison we can find and certainly not by the amplitude response measurements. That said they are not purposely laid back either. We go after neutrality and that will mean if it was a harsh recording, it will come out that way"

I have a lot of respect for this company. I'm definitely sold

If you value your sanity, don't spend too much time at AVS.

I think any of those choices for a center would be great.

The VP180 is gigantic. Seriously.

I was at the 30th anniversary and participated in the blind test. We didn't know what speakers were involved. It was a blast.

Alright, I know this thread must be getting exhausting for some. And what's worse, this purchase might not happen as soon as I hope if I don't get this pay out. I think my chances are good though.

I just like to be educated on everything I can be.

A couple of final questions regarding customization of axiom products.

1. Vinyl finish decent? I'm interested in the Vermont Maple

2. Audio Jewelry(this term is new to me...i don't get it?). I've done tons of biwiring in previous setups and always thought it was an advantage. With further reading, it seems Axiom believes it makes no difference, but offer the option for customer satisfaction mainly. Should I get the option or no? Die Cast woofer baskets or standard? What's the difference if any?


Again, I just want to give a big shout out to all the people participating in my "torture myself" thread. lol And I truly am torturing myself when I can't even place an order yet. My eyes are going buggy from spending so much time on the computer reading and scouring forums and articles.