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#390855 - 03/11/13 04:00 AM Re: Bryston Model T Mini bookshelf speaker [Re: ponch0069]
ponch0069 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 19
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Exlabdriver. Was the experimental speaker a floor stander or bookshelf?

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#390870 - 03/11/13 12:40 PM Re: Bryston Model T Mini bookshelf speaker [Re: ponch0069]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8280
Loc: Tacoma
I get your point. I do.

But to get a truly full-range passive speaker (let's arbitrarily say something that plays flat to 40Hz or so), you need not only a bigger driver but also a much bigger box. Axiom already makes full-range towers, and I'm sure if they could somehow bend the laws of physics to make them smaller, they would, as doing so could dramatically reduce their production and shipping costs.

So, I guess my question is, how much deeper than an M22 do you want this thing to go, or what do you want it to do that an M22 doesn't do? The M22 is Axiom's "big bookshelf" speaker, and I'm comfortable that it articulates Ian's design philosophy, which emphasizes off-axis response and low distortion.

As to a powered M2/EP400 in-one-box thing - again, look at the volume of the enclosure. Also, it's worth noting that the optimal placement for the transducers producing 80Hz and up is very rarely the optimal placement for the transducers producing lower frequencies. Since "The Room" is such an important component, you really get much greater flexibility by NOT having everything in one box.

Finally, some of the very best speakers I've ever heard are two-way designs.

I guess my point is, I'm sure Ian has already considered a bookshelf three-way for Axiom. So, I wouldn't hold your breath. No matter how much sense we might think it makes, the science and production are undoubtedly much more complicated.
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#390873 - 03/11/13 12:54 PM Re: Bryston Model T Mini bookshelf speaker [Re: ponch0069]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5820
Loc: Some random location
IMO, the M22 doesn't go down to 80hz at a decent volume level where the sub takes over. This creates a hole in the frequency range. I've noticed very much so, when playing music, with the upper base notes missing. By adding the VP160 to the mix, I've noticed those missing notes as now being there.

You can look at graphs all day, BUT, if you don't hear it, then you don't hear it. I've owned a total of 9 M22's, 1 VP160, 1 VP150, 1 VP100, 1 M2, 1 EP350, and 3 QS8's.


Edited by CatBrat (03/11/13 01:12 PM)

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#390877 - 03/11/13 01:51 PM Re: Bryston Model T Mini bookshelf speaker [Re: ponch0069]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8280
Loc: Tacoma
Interesting. So, you were using an M22 as a center, then?

Can you give me some examples of the material that demonstrated the deficiency?
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#390878 - 03/11/13 02:05 PM Re: Bryston Model T Mini bookshelf speaker [Re: tomtuttle]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5820
Loc: Some random location
Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Interesting. So, you were using an M22 as a center, then?

Can you give me some examples of the material that demonstrated the deficiency?


The most noticeable one is the Police concert on blu-ray, called "Certifiable".

Wasn't using M22 as a center. But I was using them as Mains. The 3 center's I've used are: M2, VP100, VP150, then the VP160 + M22 I now use.

The bass would have been coming from the Mains also, not just the center. If I have to, I'll swap the center with one of the mains just to see.


Edited by CatBrat (03/11/13 02:10 PM)

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#390879 - 03/11/13 02:10 PM Re: Bryston Model T Mini bookshelf speaker [Re: ponch0069]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8280
Loc: Tacoma
Too many variables for me.
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#390881 - 03/11/13 02:17 PM Re: Bryston Model T Mini bookshelf speaker [Re: ponch0069]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5820
Loc: Some random location
What I can do is disconnect my two lower M22' mains. (I have 2 m22 mains. Upper and Lower.) Then connect the center channel output from the receiver to one of the Lower M22 mains. If I no longer hear the upper bass, then I will have proved my point. If I do hear the upper bass, I'll never mention it again. Fair?

Also, I'll try and test this using a frequency sweep that does one freq at a time and see if I can measure a difference. This might not tell me anything since there is a gap between each frequency.


Edited by CatBrat (03/11/13 02:44 PM)

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#390882 - 03/11/13 02:18 PM Re: Bryston Model T Mini bookshelf speaker [Re: ponch0069]
exlabdriver Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1007
ponch:

I really can't really remember as there was so much to look at in the factory & my memory is not what it used to be. I believe that it was a small floor-stander with a passive 8" EP400 driver - Ian pointed that feature out. Only Axiom knows, ha!!

tom:

With the way that one EP400 performs in my room, two could be over the top, but so accurate, gain adjustable & IMHO, very versatile. The cabinet would definitely be fatter & perhaps not as pleasing to the eye unless it was tapered. I'm not an expert on speaker design, but this is my fantasy based on my experience with my M2s + EP400.

Maybe I should just purchase another EP400 & get the best of both worlds - but I really don't need anymore bass output in my audio system.

TAM

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#390889 - 03/11/13 05:59 PM Re: Bryston Model T Mini bookshelf speaker [Re: CatBrat]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5820
Loc: Some random location
Originally Posted By: CatBrat
What I can do is disconnect my two lower M22' mains. (I have 2 m22 mains. Upper and Lower.) Then connect the center channel output from the receiver to one of the Lower M22 mains. If I no longer hear the upper bass, then I will have proved my point. If I do hear the upper bass, I'll never mention it again. Fair?

Also, I'll try and test this using a frequency sweep that does one freq at a time and see if I can measure a difference. This might not tell me anything since there is a gap between each frequency.


Actually, all I have to do, is listen and measure with, and without, the VP160 being plugged into the mix. There is still an M80 plugged into the center channel.

Moving this discussion over to the Water Cooler, CatBrat thread here: http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=390890&#Post390890

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#391047 - 03/16/13 05:09 PM Re: Bryston Model T Mini bookshelf speaker [Re: ponch0069]
ponch0069 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 19
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Like to know what the the verdict from Ian was and the configuration on the experimental speaker with the eight inch woofer from the EP400 was.

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