Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Idiots are abound...

Some of you may remember that a few months back, I offered a coworker to not only select quality home theater equipment, but to also install it all, and provide both audio and video calibration.

Well, I was never taken up on the offer, and today I visited his house over lunch while the installers were finishing up.

I really wish that I could tell him how screwed over he got, but at this point, the money is paid and the dead is done. No sense in making him feel bad since he is pretty excited about it.

However, I felt the need to come here and gripe of course. At least (most of) you will understand.

He got a kick butt Sony projector, but paid MSRP for it (ouch).

He received crappy in-ceiling "whole house audio" level speakers for his fronts and 4 surround channels (the surrounds are all on the ceiling and the speakers aren't tilt-able even). YUCK!

He got a 1 year old model Integra (Onkyo's "installer" brand) receiver that doesn't even have any built in Audyssey calibration, and has very few internet audio options which brings me to....

They added a $900 package to get the overprices, 1 year old model Integra to have better internet connectivity. Ouch again.

They also put in a nice, but super pricey sub. A Monitor RSW-12 that shows up on their web site as a "past product". WTH? Not even a current product. And he paid $1500 for it. Can I shoot them yet?!

So here we are, and I am biting my tongue because I don't want my coworker to feel bad, but I really want to lay it on to the installer that is saying how awesome everything is.

So let me finish with this. He has The Matrix DVD (not blu-ray but fine, he is just testing) in and is using that movie to "calibrate" everything. No test tones, no individual speaker setup, just listening to a movie.

He then hooks up the sub, and cranks it. He says, "I've only got it at 3/4 of the power. Well, first off, that is pretty damn 'hot' for a sub. I mean, my SVS runs somewhere between 1/4-1/8 of the total gain available, and it is running a few dB hotter than true calibrated level for my room. The Monitor sub sounded terrible and way too overpowering during the scene in The Matrix where the go into the building with all of the guns and set off the metal detectors. The installer was like, "Yeah, that sounds great. You can feel the bass." I couldn't hold back, I had to speak up and say, that is way too much bass, it is overpowering the front channels and sounds boomy, it should be no more than 50% (trying to not totally piss people off). He turned it down to about 40% and the coworker said, "yeah, that sounds better. Lots of bass, but not too much."

Nice calibration. Crank things up to ridiculous levels because the average person thinks that louder equals better.

As I was leaving, I said, let me know when you get all settled in and we will tune it to your liking. I am not going to do a full calibration of anything, but I will tweak things a little more so that they sound good at least.

But my gosh, these people are making a buttload of money selling overpriced, under-featured components and not even attempting to make it sound right. If I could make a lot of money, not need to know anything, but pretend and lie to make people think that I am "all that", I'd get into the home theater installation industry. Either that or I'd become a politician.

Ouch, indeed.

You hate to see that happen to people you care about, especially when it could have been avoided.

I've thought about trying to get into that industry but, on a fundamental level, I just don't enjoy climbing around in attics and basements very much.

Two words...
Sub - Contractors

OK, so it is one, hyphonated word...

Of course, that cuts into profits, but then again, when you are making it hand-over-fist...

NOTE: I know that there are some very good installers out there, but clearly the market here and a lot of places has crap.

You know it's going to sound bad when he doesn't have 20 speakers plastered around the front wall.

Hey, you can come work for our company. You can sell clients on the need for 20 speakers up front!

Nick, the bottom line is that company doesn't give a crap about their product... They just need to make it sound some what acceptable and collect their cash.....


The worst part is, it's a co-worker.. So, you cant really be too honest, depending on the relationship you have with this guy.. I'm gonna guess he is sold semi easily by brand names, and perceived reputation/knowledge?



BTW, has he seen your basement? if he hasn't, you may not want to have him come over, because i would bet your install is WAY WAY better than what he is getting.. And at a MUCH lower price point.

Correct. This is the guy that I offered to pick out all of the equipment for him, install it all (have the other sub contractors run the electrical and speaker wires), calibrate the audio and video, and save the guy about $5000 and have it be a much better system.

He said, "I just want turn key. I just sign one document at closing on the house and I'm done."

So yes, I am going to have to bite my tongue a lot. This system will still sound alright to him. After we left his house, he kept asking for my honest opinion, and I just kept downplaying it and saying how much he is going to enjoy the space and how awesome his house is.

Oh, and he has NOT seen my basement.

Did the installer give him some kind warranty you're aware of? If so, maybe some salvage can occur, at least in the speaker zone. I give you tons of credit Nick for holding back especially for someone like you that's sounds rather passionate for their audio.

Two things stand out when i read this thread.
First that some perceive their setups and ability as superior to others because they use "proper" setup methods. I thought the mantra was more of the "do what sounds good to you" around here.
If 75% gain on his sub sounds good to him, what does it matter that it is not THX method calibrated, etc. etc.?
We already know that louder sounds better to most people and many on these forums would also fall for that audio trick if you did not know anything else wasn't equal.
So why would anyone get annoyed at this person because they don't have their system all "properly" calibrated?

Second, one's opinion or suggestions are just that. An opinion. Why would you have the expectation that this person HAS to take your suggestions?
Other people don't need to take others opinions in part because people like to make their own decisions and in part because they are always other options out there. One opinion may provide only a limited set of those options. Axiom is a great company, but by no means are they the only company i talk about when discussing audio setups with people who are looking for suggestions.

I've been in Nick's situation several times and two come to mind that elicit the annoyed feeling Nick has, but my reaction was alot more muted (no rants required and i am one to rant!).

I had a good friend who knew nothing about a/v. He was doing a $100k basement reno (the guy was a VP of a large company). He had 2 choices for a/v installers. I helped him through the quotes to understand what they were offering. He went with my suggestion to go with the smaller boutique place which for the same price was going to give him on-wall speakers (Monitor Audios if i recall) and two floor standers up front. He had no interest in Axiom speakers. He thought they were too cheap (this is a person who equates dollars with quality). After talking with my friend and the installer about the on-wall options, the installer was THRILLED that my friend wasn't going to choose the lesser audio quality in-ceiling stuff, which the installer also sells, even though they were MORE expensive than in the on-wall options.
In the end, my friend switched out his speaker choices and went for the in-ceiling options.
Why?
Aesthetics. Had nothing to do with the outright cost at all.
Was i annoyed?
Nope.
Not my money.
Did he ask how i liked the sound? Of course. And i told him my opinion after i got to hear the system post-installation.
I told him i thought the sound was good quality, not particularly pinpoint for sound (more diffuse) and they sounded kind of muffled, not particularly clear. But they did provide surround sound fairly effectively in the room.
I don't think he expected me to glow about his choices but he was happy hearing that i thought they made decent surround speakers. Funny but for that price as an owner i would much rather hear they sound like truly fantastic speakers.
But my friend continues to be happy with his room because as we all know, people continue to convince themselves that what they chose and put effort into deciding upon sounds best, and as such, it does.

Second similar story re: someone i actually care about.
I gave my brother a/v advice years back when he asked me about new tvs and a good audio system. Much like Nick i suggested things like Axiom setups, a few receivers, etc.
After four, multi-page emails back and forth, i didn't hear from him for a few weeks. When i inquired, he ended up buying a decent tv (not one i suggested) and he went with a brand name HTIB for audio (or maybe it was a soundbar, i don't quite recall). He just couldn't be bothered with "all that other stuff" (wiring, and etc). He spent around $500-1k on the HTIB.
Did i care?
No, not really.
It isn't my money.
It isn't my house.
I won't be spending endless hours at his place watching anything.
AND, maybe it actually sounds good in his room.
I have no idea.

Was i annoyed that he just didn't take my advice after i had spent my own time and effort trying to get him something i thought was price conscious and high quality?
Well of course to an extent since i spent hours writing emails back and forth to him providing links for info and gear that he requested.
But i'm not going to rant about it or hold him in some kind of contempt. I just won't bother doing that anymore in the future. It isn't worth my time.

Bottom line, LET IT GO MAN!
It's not that big a deal.

Lesson learned:
Don't give out advice if you actually expect others to have to take it.

/end rant

Can we get a big, resounding AMEN for this man's logic?

Live and let live, y'all!

Wow, and I thought that we were allowed to vent/rant here. I guess not.

I just feel bad when people over pay for sub par equipment and don't even know it. Oh, and the guy who liked the sound was the installer, not the customer. Now I am asked to come over and make it sound good.

Like I said, I will not burst his bubble since it is already spent and installed. I am also not losing any sleep over this. Not sure why such the negative responses. Sorry I even brought it up.

Yep, these are not unusual stories in that back a number of years ago I had an old friend do exactly the same thing in after having a rather lengthy discussion about a new monitor and what to buy along with some other audio equipment, I offered my advice(after he asked me) and, if necessary my services to help him out. Several weeks later he told me he bought the stuff on his own. I don't know what it is about human nature but I can only assume it must be some sort of personal pride in that they feel they must do it themselves and don't need any help about making that final decision. In the end, of course, the decision, in our minds anyway, usually is the wrong one.

The way I look at it, it is his money and if he is happy,then as "Chesseroo" said, just "let it go".

I rather enjoyed the venting.

Me, too.

Let me clarify one more time. I have let it go. I wanted to share the story though. People keep telling me to let it go, and I have. Just being able to make my initial post here made me feel completely better.

Again I have let it go.

Now I am going to eat some homemade pizza and go watch a movie or catch up on some The Walking Dead as my whole family is leaving for a few hours.

Nick, you made the pizza wrong. Let me tell you how to make it better!

No, seriously.... I agree with Ken and Tom (and you).

I've been in that situation before as well with my Dad. he asked for advice and ultimately he didn't take it and cheaped out. His decision was even worse, though, as the HTIP he bought didn't even have inputs to accept his cable box. So, he had surround sound (via the 5", 4oz speakers he sat on his end tables!) but only when he watched a DVD. He couldn't even get that poor surround sound for his TV watching!

But I bit my tongue. It just irked me that what he paid for was such a poor value in comparison to what he COULD have had.

Give this a little time, and then make the insulting of his home theater part of a bigger roast. Screw feeling better about it now, without the confrontation! Bide your time, let it stew, and then totally catch him off guard with a too-well-orchestrated verbal stabbity. Seriously, though, roasts should be yearly events for every single person, even old people and children. Let's all develop thick skins by walking through fire on a regular basis.

We need a "Vent" thread.
I have a good one.

I'll derail the vitriol by pretending I think the thread is about air circulation for home theater gear.

We need a "What were they thinking" thread.

So to keep this thread de-railed, I ended up NOT watching a movie or some Walking Dead episodes.

I got into a pinball and then Golden Tee "tournament" with my 14 year old daughter and her friend. Can't turn that down.

Then, I took them to the mall while I burned a new Bass Disc (50GB blu-ray) compilation disc that was just shared on AVS a week ago. I gave that a spin for a while.

Fun stuff.

Wow. I think I'll swap out my Axions for a cool Bose setup!

It's your money. I am sure that you will love it.

(That is the response I've learned from this thread. LOL)

Happens in every field. I once had a local PC shop try to sell me "intel" hard drives for a premium. Unscrupulous people will try to squeeze every last penny out of unsuspecting consumers. I doubt it will change anytime soon. At least you saved him from boomy bass and he seems to like it better. That's something.

Hey guys, I'm wounded & bleeding after a couple of months of trying to keep brand bashing to a minimum (or at least provide an alternative point of view) elsewhere on some our other 'favourite' speaker forums. Bose is always a massive target & victim over there as well. While I know that it was just done in jest here, I don't like to see it done to us, nor Bose, Sony or any other brand. It damages reputations through the sheer volume of negative stuff that accumulates on the net. Unfortunately, this bad stuff quickly rises to the top in search engine listings for all to see. We just provide them with ammo when we do it here & I'm sure that this one will show up over there shortly.

The silly games we play - I don't know how much more that I can take...

TAM

Who knew that this thread would make all of these twists and turns and make so many people mad. I don't think that anyone directly bashed any product. I just mentioned overpriced (by the installer) and old model products (again, installer issues). The Bose comment really didn't slam Bose directly. I think that a lot of people got the idea of that post, and I just tried to down play it as being fine and that we should be happy about the "hypothetical" scenario.

I understand where you are coming from as the bashing is pretty hot and heavy elsewhere and we should try to keep ourselves above that. I also don't think that anything was really bashed here. We all have our opinions though and I am not going to say that yours is wrong. Peace...

I know - Bose was meant in jest here, but others may not take it the same way...

TAM

Just think how many Bose cubes he could fit on his front wall, though!

I don't think anybody got mad. I certainly didn't. One good rant deserves another and I enjoyed both, honestly.

There were 498 Bose cubes on the wall. One fell off and went ZZZZZZPT.
There were 497 Bose cubes on the wall. One fell off and went ZZZZZZPT,
There were 496 ........

I just did some math. My front wall of my theater is about 14 feet wide by almost 8 feet tall. If I take out the area used by the soffits and do the math. I can get 1712 of the 3"x3" Bose cubes on my front wall...

I'm surprised someone hasn't tried something like that.

Nick, If you buy me another margarita when you come back to town... I won't be mad at you any more....




*wait, was i suppose to be mad?*

Somehow I don't think the expense would be worth it, keeping in mind the title.

Maybe if we all contributed $5 to the cause....

That means i can get top-shelf tequila next time.. Thanks man!.

Sounds like my friends experience with the in-wall subs. At least even he knew that they sounded terrible though so I didn't have to try to be polite.

+1.

I appreciated Nick's story and Chesseroo's story.

Well... that's your problem right there.
I went to a birthday a few months back and made a new acquaintance; the gentleman is a musician, vocals as well as guitar. At some point during the dinner we started talking about audio gear at which point my new friend said: "There is Bose and then there is everything else." I too bit my tongue; but I invited him to my wife's birthday.
Fast forward a few weeks; I got the guy in my basement and we listened to some music (his choices). I gave him the remote and encourage him to raise the volume at whatever level he likes.
Long story short, it's been more than 6 months and never heard that phrase: "There is Bose and there is everything else."
As I suspected, he never actually had a chance to listen to a decent system before; his claims where simply based on his system which compared to a $200 HTIB was a lot better.
Lesson learned for him and for me as well: don't make claims about audio unless you heard the gear first hand.

Well, in all fairness: From a pro point of view, Bose does make some interesting and popular systems for musicians and DJs. So his "Bose opinion" is not necessarily based on consumer gear.