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#44526 - 05/03/04 05:10 PM One simple question for 2x6
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
The quote below comes from this post, which 2x6 either ignored or simply didn't see:
In reply to:

... you cannot definitively say that Unit A sounds different/better/worse than Unit B without taking care to do the tests in a way that prevents the tester's bias from influencing the results -- that bias includes both your opposition's bias towards uniformity of sound AND your own bias towards non-uniformity.

That is all I would like you to acknowledge. Just say the word and this whole ordeal can go away.


The statement applies to comparing and then making a qualitative judgment about any audio component, whether it be a cable, receiver, amplifier, etc. Double-blind testing does not favor either side of the debate. Keep in mind that any such test can and should be performed by listening to music with your own ears.

So my question is this: Do you agree or disagree that double-blind testing is necessary before one can make an unbiased ranking judgment (better than / worse than / same as) about an audio component?
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#44527 - 05/03/04 06:04 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
No pmb, I don't think double blind testing is a necessary precondition to making an unbiased ranking judgment. While it may be a superior methodology, I trust myself enough to make such judgments for myself and have surprised myself by choices which defied expectations both for the better, no change and for the worse.

BTW, as to those on this board who maintain that all solid state amps sound the same, interconnects and speaker cable don't make any difference, tube amps and tube output CDPs generate a warm wash of distortion and hum, I'm not aware that any proponents of these opinions has conducted any double blind tests either.

Look, pmb, I can only report my experiences, what has worked for me, and what hasn't. If my experience which I truthfully report is at odds with the party-line of some true-believers, or contrary to their theoretical expectations, that's too bad. It seems to me that their opinions are entitled to no a priori preference to mine.

Please don't equate the belief that all solid state amps sound the same with the theory of relativity or survival of the fittest, just because the holders of the all-solid-state-amps-sound-the-same theory consider themselves 'scientists.'

I have repeatedly invited fellow Axiom board members to come by and listen to a nice tube amp fed by a nice CDP with a tube output and connected together by my favorite speaker wires. So far, no takers. After all, why bother when you already know the answer?
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#44528 - 05/03/04 06:26 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
In reply to:

I have repeatedly invited fellow Axiom board members to come by and listen to a nice tube amp fed by a nice CDP with a tube output and connected together by my favorite speaker wires. So far, no takers. After all, why bother when you already know the answer?



Hmm... travel 1500 miles to hear a CD being amplified by what is essentially a light bulb with a screen? I'm surprised people haven't been battering down your door!

Wanna come up here and watch my carburator work?

Bren R.

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#44529 - 05/03/04 06:41 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
OK Bren, thank you for letting me know you won't be coming by. You declined my invitation with all the class and grace I'd expect from you.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#44530 - 05/03/04 06:41 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
AdamP88 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 639
Loc: Omaha, NE
I hold no real bias against tube amps, as I haven't really had much experience with them, but the limited experience I have had with them has definitely made me want to check them out in more detail.

That said, one thing needs to be cleared up. Tubes create distortion (as defined as even order harmonics or something added that wasn't in the original signal). This is a fact. Some designs are more obviously distorted than others, but all tube based designs have it. When someone says "tubes," most people think of that midrange warmth and an overall more "liquid" sound. That was not in the original signal, thus, however pleasing it may sound, it is a distortion of the original signal.

So it is possible to say that tubes cause distortion and still like tubes. It's only a statement of fact, not a statement of bias. This has been a source of contention between you and other members here for a while, but it really shouldn't be an issue.

As far as listening to your system, I definitely wouldn't mind, but I think the degree to which interconnects may affect sound has been greatly exaggerated. At best it's a very minor change, if any.

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#44531 - 05/03/04 06:46 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Adam, why do you equate even ordered harmonics with distortion? Do you think nature favors odd-ordered harmonics?

I agree that the differences among some speaker wire and interconnects are fairly subtle, but I don't think those differences are necessarily trivial.

Heck, Adam, you're almost a neighbor! If you ever find yourself in Orange County, send me a PM, and I'll throw a steak on the barbie for ya. Bring a few of your favorite CDs and I guaranty you, your ears will be pleased!


Edited by 2x6spds (05/03/04 06:53 PM)
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#44532 - 05/03/04 06:51 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
In reply to:

Hmm... travel 1500 miles to hear a CD being amplified by what is essentially a light bulb with a screen? I'm surprised people haven't been battering down your door!




No need to diss the guys gear. I'm not sure what the big fuss is about. He has his opinion. You all have yours. No amount of fighting, arguing, and heckling is going to get either camp to change their minds.

It his money, let him buy what makes him happy. Hell my brother has a Louis Vitton travel bag. It cost him close to $1000. I have a $59.95 carry on. He swears his is better. I'll never convince him otherwise.

Here's my suggestion. Leave 2x6 and his opinions alone. And 2x6, how about simply posting messages about your tubes, and wires, without such a harsh edge towards others.

Just a thought.


_________________________
"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

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#44533 - 05/03/04 06:53 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
2x6,

Thanks for your answer. I do not take it to apply to your views on science across the board.

While searching for articles on double-blind testing to include in a follow-up post, I uncovered a fascinating and lengthy exchange on the very subject. It covers both sides of the issue and goes into a fair amound of detail. I thought everyone would enjoy reading it.

http://www.stereophile.com/features/141/
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#44534 - 05/03/04 07:00 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8294
Loc: Tacoma
Peter, why the heck did you do this?

2x6, here is an example of a behaviour that I object to. Bren made a joke, damn funny one too, in which he disparaged a type of device. In return, you implied that HE lacked grace and class. Poor show, sir.

Now, please understand, I'm happy you like tubes. I might like them too. I appreciate the honest way in which you convey your experiences. I don't care about double-blind tests or "pure" data. Science exists. Not everything in life SHOULD be quantified. I'll accept people's opinions AND judge for myself.

But I don't know what any of you WANT out of this! Is it to generate one train wreck per week?
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#44535 - 05/03/04 07:01 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Not to diss your brother, but it's been my experience that folks attracted to Louis Vuitton carry on bags are looking to impress other folk with proof of substantial disposable income - LV bags demonstrate no other virtue.

I appreciate your comments, Spiff, but my choice of a tube amp was for me, and not intended to impress anyone else. I have 8 amps in my house, only one is a tubie, though it is, in my opinion, the most musical of all my amps.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#44536 - 05/03/04 07:12 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
2x6,

True or false: A tube amp adds even-order harmonics to the source signal.

True or false: Even-order harmonics qualitatively change the sound of the source signal.

True or false: Any difference between the source signal and the output signal, no matter how pleasing to the ear, can be called distortion.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#44537 - 05/03/04 07:13 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
tomtuttle,

I do this because I want to know the man behind the Michauras.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#44538 - 05/03/04 07:43 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Hello PMB.

Tube amps are characterized by even ordered harmonics. Solid state amps by odd ordered harmonics. Music that sounds sonorous is characterized by even ordered harmonics. Noise is more akin to odd ordered harmonics. I wouldn't say that tube amps 'add' even ordered harmonics. It is the nature of the frequecy resonances, and I think even ordered harmonics are more musical than the odd ordered frequency resonances which characterize solid state amps.

BTW, I read that very interesting article you linked. You may not have noticed but I responded several times to your query about double blind testing. My position, before reading the article, was that a well designed double blind test would provide more significant results than the kick back and listen with joy method. Now, I'm not so sure. It never occurred to me that the double blind methodology runs into its own 'Heisenberg-like Uncertainty' boundary between Type I and Type II statistical error.

There are certain little pieces of audio information which I use for my tests of sound equipment. The 'thwack' of the G string of a bass fiddle in the Colangelo jazz CD, the wood wind chimes in cut 2 of Loreena McKennett's Elemental CD, cuts 3 and 6 of Elemental for soundstage as a few examples. These sounds, IMO, test equipment in a way that is fairly easy to discern.

For me, as I'm sure for most of you, the joy of audio is coming as close to the sound of live music as possible. My home-brew tests are intended to satisfy my passion for this elusive goal. But, for me, my passion is price sensitive. I'm by nature, frugal, so I balance results with minimizing the pain-of-the-purse and soothing my conscience that I am not overindulging, that is, I am conscious that while I enjoy someone fiddling, someone else is starving and spending more than I do would be in as bad taste as buying a Louis Vuitton travel bag.

Anyway, no one has to come by to listen to my tube system. Let's just forget I offered. I have never suggested that you all are not entitled to your opinions. I see no need to justify mine any further.


Edited by 2x6spds (05/03/04 07:47 PM)
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#44539 - 05/03/04 07:51 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4832
Loc: western canada
Excellent link Peter.
I've read the article before and it is very well done.
Note the final two summary paragraphs that Tom Nousaine has written:

"I find it interesting that no one has difficulty discovering differences during subjective evaluations. However, during the open sessions I've participated in the general sensitivity level of the listeners often seems to be greater than one (p equal to or greater than 1.0). Differences abound. However, sometimes these differences mystically disappear under blind conditions. Why? It seems to me that many of them are a part of the relationship or interface between the listener and that gear. The things the listener hears are as much a part of the listener as they are a part of the equipment. Withholding the identity of the equipment breaks the bond with the listener and the differences disappear.

As an audiophile, it is important to me to know which differences are attributable to the equipment alone. Those which are part of the listener interface may not apply to me. The ABX method is the only test I am aware of that makes this important distinction. It is the only one that has both scientific validity and statistical reliability. I don't doubt that listeners and golden ears hear what they hear, but there is scant evidence that others would hear it. While the debate rages on, I will devote my energy to areas where there is no argument about the existence of major differences. Loudspeakers, anyone?—Thomas A. Nousaine, Chicago, IL "


People will disregard this evidence anyway. There is a distinct fear of having ones belief structure collapse around them, as well as a predictable need to be argumentative regardless of the obvious and logical evidence presented.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#44540 - 05/03/04 07:54 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
In reply to:

I appreciate the honest way in which you convey your experiences. I don't care about double-blind tests or "pure" data. Science exists. Not everything in life SHOULD be quantified. I'll accept people's opinions AND judge for myself.



See...I should have kept my mouth shut and let one of our most eloquent handle it. He (as usual) put it better than I could.


_________________________
"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

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#44541 - 05/03/04 08:01 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10405
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#44542 - 05/03/04 08:04 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Still, you can't fault someone for wanting to stick to their beliefs. After all, perspective shapes reality. As long as they're not publishing papers on it or passing it off as fact, I'm OK with it.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#44543 - 05/03/04 08:35 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
In reply to:

Tube amps are characterized by even ordered harmonics. Solid state amps by odd ordered harmonics. Music that sounds sonorous is characterized by even ordered harmonics. Noise is more akin to odd ordered harmonics. I wouldn't say that tube amps 'add' even ordered harmonics. It is the nature of the frequecy resonances, and I think even ordered harmonics are more musical than the odd ordered frequency resonances which characterize solid state amps.



YES... now we're getting somewhere. I won't argue semantics between distortion and harmonics - in this case, they're close enough that I'll accept them as nearly synonymous.

Now the difference between tube and S/S electronics is the level at which these harmonics (or distortion) are produced. For tube amplification, they're present at nearly every power level; for s/s amplification, the harmonics are introduced only when overdriven - if s/s distortion (read: harmonics if it makes you feel better) appeared at the same level as tube distortion (harmonics), a s/s amp would sound like FM radio tuned between channels.

In short - hopefully we can all agree on these points on both sides:
- odd order harmonics (ie: transistors) sound bad
- even order harmonics (ie: tubes) sound not so bad (really just "octaving" - at 12th intervals)
- tube amp reproduction demonstrates these "good" harmonics at all power levels
- S/S amp reproduction demonstrates these "bad" harmonics only when overdriven
- tube amps sound "round" because of the even order harmonics - the guitarded (players of 6-strings) among us will recognize the sound of an octaver
- s/s amps offer flat reproduction because of the (relative) lack of harmonic distortion until they are overdriven (at which point they exhibit ugly noisy distortion)

It's far oversimplified, but a good starting point for coming together.

Bren R.

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#44544 - 05/03/04 08:46 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8294
Loc: Tacoma
Woo! Bren! You da man! I understood darn near all of that!

"octaving" is a funny looking word.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#44545 - 05/03/04 09:17 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Octaving:


_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#44546 - 05/03/04 09:24 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6252
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Are you watching Mission Impossible right now, Peter? I am, and he's in it.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#44547 - 05/03/04 09:47 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Raindance Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/30/03
Posts: 170
Loc: Minnesota
Nice clear and straightforward explanation, Bren.

Like you said, the characteristic distortion for solid-state amps is essentially revolves around the addition of odd-order harmonics, and such only occurs when the amp is overdriven.

Tube amps are 'easy to overdrive' but they distort gradually, and, actually, add in both even and odd-order harmonics to a sound (not only even-order harmonics).

I think that's really interesting. Here is an interesting article on the subject of tube amps, though it mainly focuses on instrument-amplification. I have seen a mixer that had a build-in tube distortion circuit that could add-in a 'tube sound' to a recording during the mastering process. Very cool.

And hey, I'd love to hear a tube amp sometime instead of just hearing recordings of tube amp outputs if the offer's still open, 2x6spds.

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#44548 - 05/03/04 09:54 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
mwc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 958
Loc: Texas(DFW)..that country to th...
In reply to:

Anyway, no one has to come by to listen to my tube system.



I,for one, would be delighted to stop by your place and listen to your tube system. I'll take you up on it the next time I'm in your neck of the woods(where ever that may be).


Edited by mwc (05/03/04 10:11 PM)
_________________________
*Does your train of thought have a caboose?*

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#44549 - 05/03/04 10:10 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Ray3 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 2843
Loc: Rochester, NY
This entire thread is a tribute to the legend better known as Conrad Dobler. OT entertainment perhaps. A stick of the finger in the eye? A rush of testosterone in an otherwise placid void. What the hell am I talking about?

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#44550 - 05/03/04 10:17 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
mwc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 958
Loc: Texas(DFW)..that country to th...
In reply to:

What the hell am I talking about?




Ray...put the bottle down and slowly back away. It'll all be better in the morning.








_________________________
*Does your train of thought have a caboose?*

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#44551 - 05/03/04 11:08 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
"Ray...put the bottle" of speed pills "down and slowly back away. It'll all be better in the morning."
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#44552 - 05/04/04 12:24 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17789
Loc: NoVA
Oh, dude, speed comes in pills now? Aww---riiight.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#44553 - 05/04/04 04:45 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
2x6spds,

I'll preface this by saying I mean no disrespect... read through a few of your posts and how you like to redriver old "flea market/eBay" finds.

You'd be a shoe-in for HGTV Canada's television show Trash to Treasure... they give a team a limited budget to buy flea market stuff, work it over and resell it at a profit. Usually it's crazy old bag-lady types recovering soda shoppe stools with faux fur - would be interesting to see you on there plying your hobby. The home stereo slant would make me want to watch it more, anyway.

Bren R.

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#44554 - 05/04/04 05:23 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Soda shoppe stools? I'll take mine in faux leopard skin please.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#44555 - 05/04/04 08:10 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Ray3 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 2843
Loc: Rochester, NY
Well, it's nice to see everybody made up. That may explain the pills missing from my bottle. Now we can move back into carefree audio mode.

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#44556 - 05/04/04 11:59 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
In reply to:

Soda shoppe stools? I'll take mine in faux leopard skin please.



Actually, the show's not all that bad... there's the occasional guy that'll refinish a 30s tea cart or something. As for the stools, I'll take mine in real Leppard - someone skin Joe Elliott, please.

Bren R.

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#44557 - 05/05/04 12:09 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
In reply to:

someone skin Joe Elliott, please




poor some sugar on me bren.. you FREAK!!!

last good album was hysteria, pyro was better.. high n dry, even better.. perfect example of a corporate band takeover. hate to see it.

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#44558 - 05/05/04 12:43 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
*G* You'll notice my characterization of bands I hate (even distain) as being anyone who has worn makeup, spandex and had big hair all at the same time. The only exception to this rule is KISS, because - they're KISS.

My other rules of what I won't listen to:
- male vocalists who sing in a higher key than Debbie Gibson (Robert Plant)
- any band fronted by a bassist (save for the Police and Rush)
- any country album that doesn't include the word "shot", "convoy" or "whiskey" (Toby Keith still makes this list even with the word "whiskey" - he's not so much Honky-Tonk as Tonka trucks)
- Anyone with an irresponsibly difficult name to pronounce (ie: Yahweh Malmsteen, Nuno Butterball, Me'shell Neogeocello)
- the Fartz (yes, I realize they gave birth to Blaine Cook who would go on to front the Accused, but they also didn't drown Duff McKagen when they had the chance allowing him to go on to Guns & Roses)
- "punk" boy bands (AFI, Good Charlotte)
- guitar wanking
- piano wanking (Rick Wakeman - the antichrist plays a moog!)
- albums containing only "love songs" (tough catagory, because I have to overlook some Alice Cooper, Descendents and Pursuit of Happiness albums here)
- Anyone that has been touched by the pure evil that is Ronnie James Dio

(disclaimer - this has been a humourous look at bands and is not meant to be hurtful to anyone with tattoos of any of the above mentioned bands)

Bren R.

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#44559 - 05/05/04 12:53 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4832
Loc: western canada
That's a wicked list Bren.
If we get the chance to actually gather for a speaker audition, what exactly do you think you might be playing for music pieces?
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#44560 - 05/05/04 01:15 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
Better bring your own... not sure what your tastes are, I do have everything from Simon and Garfunkel to Ministry, but most of my collection is punk (interested in the message more than the medium).

Though my favorite speaker testing songs are Whatcha Need (Bootsauce) and Dead Souls (Nine Inch Nails) I've also got a few CBC reference CDs for things like tone and pink/white noise.

Bren R.

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#44561 - 05/05/04 09:00 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
ringmir Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/03/04
Posts: 619
Loc: boston
So no Primus Bren? And I do hope Jello Biafra's name isn't irresponsibly hard to pronounce...
_________________________
[black]-"The further we go and older we grow, the more we know, the less we show."[/black]

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#44562 - 05/05/04 11:34 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8294
Loc: Tacoma
[tears running down my face from laughter]

Thanks, Bren. You crack me up.

Shouldn't there also be some kind of limit on "best of" or retrospective albums? How about bands that issue "greatest hits" where they only had one hit altogether? How about sequel albums, "Return of the son of shut up 'n play yer guitar" notwithstanding. Any band with a "choreographer".

_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#44563 - 05/05/04 12:07 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
In reply to:

So no Primus Bren? And I do hope Jello Biafra's name isn't irresponsibly hard to pronounce



No Primus. Everytime I hear Les Claypool's bass sound I want to find him and crank his machine heads up about 3 octaves.
And nope, Jello's name is easy enough. Eric Boucher (real name) is probably even easier, though.

Bren R.

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#44564 - 05/05/04 12:20 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
ringmir Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/03/04
Posts: 619
Loc: boston
Well glad to hear that DK is acceptable. When you said you listened to punk for the message I figured they must be on your ok list.
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[black]-"The further we go and older we grow, the more we know, the less we show."[/black]

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#44565 - 05/05/04 12:21 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
In reply to:

How about bands that issue "greatest hits" where they only had one hit altogether?



Ah, yes... or worse, a band that has three commercial releases and then releases a two CD "Anthology".

Or bands that go the other way - like XTC, who release "best of..." albums that are mainly self-serving experimental b-sides.

Bren R.

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#44566 - 05/05/04 01:15 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
BrenR,

By your own rules, you should not be listening to Rush. Geddy sings in a higher key than Debbie Gibson. That, and Alex Lifeson's real last name -- Zivojinovich -- is hard to pronounce (for some, anyway).
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"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#44567 - 05/05/04 01:24 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17789
Loc: NoVA
Speaking of Rush, does anyone know if the tour's still on this summer?
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#44568 - 05/05/04 01:30 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
squirrelyz Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 106
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Yes - I think they're hitting Atlanta the first of August. Will probably look into it - I haven't seen rush since the Presto tour.

One other point about Alex Lifeson - probably one of the most underrated guitar players in his life time.

^billy
_________________________
videoslave

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#44569 - 05/05/04 01:36 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
All of Rush -- except for Neil Peart -- is underrated if you ask anybody who doesn't play guitar or bass.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#44570 - 05/05/04 01:40 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Happy Birthday WhatFurrer Offline
aficionado

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 692
Loc: Round Rock, Texas
Rush is performing sometime in June in San Antonio...right BigJohn?

WhatFurrer
_________________________
"Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup..."

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#44571 - 05/05/04 01:50 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
OK, so what's everyone's all-time favorite Rush song? My current favorite, partially because it sounds so amazing played at ear-splitting volumes, is The Camera Eye from Moving Pictures. Lyrically, it's not one of their best works, but it sure gives my system and ears a workout.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#44572 - 05/05/04 02:02 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
squirrelyz Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 106
Loc: Atlanta, GA
tough one - I'll narrow it down to:

Subdivisions
Limelight
Time Stand Still
The Pass

^billy
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videoslave

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#44573 - 05/05/04 02:05 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
In reply to:

All of Rush -- except for Neil Peart -- is underrated if you ask anybody who doesn't play guitar or bass.



Except Neil Peart? I'll give him the nod as one of the best 5 drummers I've heard (see also: Keith Moon (Who), Chad Smith (RHCP), Sandy Nelson (50s/60s session drummer) and I'll leave one open for someone I'm probably forgetting)

Bren R.

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#44574 - 05/05/04 02:11 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
that's why I left him out of the underrated category. Anyone who knows anything knows he's a drummer god.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#44575 - 05/05/04 02:20 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
OK.. now ya'll have hijacked so i wont feel guilty.. RUSH is one of my all-time favorite bands.. they are all GODS in my book with their respective instruments.

the tour is most definitely ON for the summer.. go here for tour dates. i got seats to the june 25th show in san antonio, on the 20th row from the stage.. i cant wait..

favorite song, probably 'limelight', or 'spirit of radio'.. i also like 'the trees' alot, just for the statement it makes. its hard to pick, they are all good.. best album, 'moving pictures', no question.. they have some great live albums also. 'exit stage left' is pretty cool.. showcases a lot of their early stuff..

alex was arrested in february down in florida for a public disturbance, public intoxication.. so it will be interesting to see how that turns ot..

also, for those fans that want more, RUSH has just released(3 months ago) a dvd of a concert from RIO that they did last fall.. the crowd was 200,000 strong, and they did all the classics with an awesome visual display(as usual).. it is recorded in dts 5.1, so it should sound great on our systems. i was waiting til i got my system to order it.. looks like the time is now.

PS- bren, great drummer.. mitch mitchell from the jimi hendrix experience.. i got some kick-a$$ stuff from him on vinyl..

bigjohn


Edited by bigjohn (05/05/04 02:23 PM)
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#44576 - 05/05/04 02:57 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
squirrelyz Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 106
Loc: Atlanta, GA
I'm with you bigjohn...Rush is one of my all time favorite bands. I've been eyeing that Rio DVD for about a month now and need to just break down and buy it.

My favorite live album is A Show of Hands...I have it on Cassette, CD and VHS. Hopefull they'll re-master it to 5.1.

^billy
_________________________
videoslave

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#44577 - 05/05/04 03:16 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Happy Birthday WhatFurrer Offline
aficionado

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 692
Loc: Round Rock, Texas
NOTE: I have heard on other forums that the Live in Rio DVD is not a great mix...waaaaaaay too much crowd and not enough RUSH.

Rent it first (if you can) before you purchase it...

Just my bit of sage advice, students...

Bueller...Bueller...

WhatFurrer
_________________________
"Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup..."

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#44578 - 05/05/04 03:19 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
thanks for the tip steve.. i will see if its at blockbuster and give it a spin and see what i think.

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#44579 - 05/05/04 04:34 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8294
Loc: Tacoma
I have enjoyed Rush very much since I was but a lad. I remember being embarassed in about 1978 (when I was 14) that I had not discovered them earlier. I literally wore out the vinyl on the first half-dozen albums. First time (of many) that I saw them was on the Permanent Waves tour. Absolutely life-changing experience at that age.

Generally, I like the older, artsy stuff like 2112 and Hemispheres (largely because it resonates with memories of musical discovery). I also like some of the newer, heavier stuff on Counterparts and Test for Echo. Their music often makes me "feel" in ways that I cannot easily qualify. My wife thinks they're overindulgent, pompous and dissonant. She could be right.

They put on a great live show. I'd like to go again this summer, but concerts are a much bigger challenge than they used to be, with kids and all. My 7 year old son (Alex, but not after Lifeson) seems to really enjoy Rush, which is of no small comfort.

I'll probably get the DVD through Netflix and check it out.
_________________________
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#44580 - 05/05/04 04:40 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Riffman Offline
local

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 242
Some of Neal Peart's lyrics are really good. A lot of his lyrics are really really really bad.

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#44581 - 05/05/04 05:18 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
squirrelyz Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 106
Loc: Atlanta, GA
If was in a 3 man band that could make that sound and put on that kind of live show, I might be a little overindulgent, pompous and dissonant.

I think there are types of people when it comes to Rush -
Those who love 'em
Those who hate 'em
and those who haven't heard anything but radio play and don't qualify anyway.

ha.

But what do I know, hell I own one of Prince's better albums - Controversy.

Hey, who typed that?

I enjoy most every kind of music - but must say that I'm not too hip to modern pop or hiphop. That's not a judgment on anyone, it just doesn't appeal to me.

Ribs on the smoker - that appeals to me. Didn't Cream sing that?

^billy
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videoslave

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#44582 - 05/05/04 05:32 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17789
Loc: NoVA
Yeah, it was the arrest thing I'm worried about. I'm seeing them in July, I think.

It's gonna rock.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#44583 - 05/05/04 09:00 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
mhorgel Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/02/03
Posts: 438
Loc: Louisville, KY
In reply to:

I might be a little overindulgent, pompous and dissonant




As long as they're not obsequious, purple and clairvoyant.

Mark
_________________________
"Shoot, a fella could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff"

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#44584 - 05/06/04 03:01 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Tufelhundin Offline
buff

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 49
"But what do I know, hell I own one of Prince's better albums - Controversy"


Thats funny out of all the LP's I have either given away or shot with a bow an arrow, that is the only LP I have kept....why?...I have no idea...


Semper Fi
_________________________
Semper Fi 88-97
DI 94-96
Good night CHESTY where ever you are!

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#44585 - 05/06/04 09:18 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Happy Birthday WhatFurrer Offline
aficionado

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 692
Loc: Round Rock, Texas
In reply to:

As long as they're not obsequious, purple and clairvoyant.



Okay Doc Mark, I recognize that quote...where is it from?

I know I have read that somewhere and I can't for the life of me remember where...

Enquiring Minds Want To Know...

WhatFurrer

_________________________
"Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup..."

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#44586 - 05/06/04 10:08 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
ringmir Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/03/04
Posts: 619
Loc: boston
It's Steve Martin.
_________________________
[black]-"The further we go and older we grow, the more we know, the less we show."[/black]

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#44587 - 05/06/04 10:30 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Happy Birthday WhatFurrer Offline
aficionado

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 692
Loc: Round Rock, Texas
That's it! If it came from where I think it does, I have that routine on vinyl...

Vinyl...you remember vinyl, right?

Big, black CD?



WhatFurrer
_________________________
"Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup..."

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#44588 - 05/06/04 10:49 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
i got a lot of old classic bill cosby on vinyl.. he was/is really funny.. a great story teller.. and i like the fact that he dont have to use no cuss words.

hes got this one routine where he talks about using a cardboard cut-out of frankenstein that they use to scare fat albert.. i laugh so hard i cry.. and the tonsils routine.. i remember exactly what he is talking about.

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#44589 - 05/06/04 10:55 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Happy Birthday WhatFurrer Offline
aficionado

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 692
Loc: Round Rock, Texas
I am not sure if I have that one...

I do have: "NOAH!" .... "WHO IS THIS REALLY?!"

Funny stuff...Bill takes pride in being clean...always has.

This whole discussion reminds me: I need to record the Side B of the "Steve Martin Brothers" from vinyl to WAV to CD for my Dad...he loves good banjo pickin'...

"Sick....And Tired..."

WhatFurrer
_________________________
"Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup..."

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#44590 - 05/06/04 11:00 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
ringmir Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/03/04
Posts: 619
Loc: boston
"But Daaaad, I'm Jesus Christ!"
_________________________
[black]-"The further we go and older we grow, the more we know, the less we show."[/black]

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#44591 - 05/06/04 11:06 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
NOAH!! I WANT YOU TO BUILD, AN ARK!! RRRIIIGGGHHHTTT..

totally funny skit.

buck-buck.. 34th street bridge after the scary movies.. snowball.. all great, i listen to them at least a couple times a year.

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#44592 - 05/06/04 11:13 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6252
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Definitely one of the funniest men EVER.

I saw him live, oh so many years ago (30, or more). He just walks out on a bare stage with a microphone and a chair, sits down, and. for two hours, proceeds to enthrall you, not by telling jokes, but by talking about real life from a wonderfully humorous point of view. Mesmerizing!

I forget who opened for him. Poco? CSNY? Nitty Gritty? One of those. It was a great concert. I think it was Poco.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#44593 - 05/06/04 12:45 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
"Buck buck number one.... come in....
And we sent over Ol' Weird Harold...
WHOOMPH!
Paper... somebody through a piece of paper on toppa me."

Bren R.

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#44594 - 05/06/04 02:09 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
I feel deprived! Are any of those out on CD?
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#44595 - 05/06/04 02:13 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
They are... finally...

"I started out as a child"
"Revenge"
"Why is there air?"
"Is a very funny fellow... right!"
"Wonderfulness"
are all really good albums...

Bren R.

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#44596 - 05/06/04 02:19 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
added to my amazon.com wishlist...
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#44597 - 05/06/04 02:26 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6252
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
At leat one of his concerts is on Video Tape. It might be available, at a later date, on DVD. I have this one and have found it absolutely hysterical. Great stuff!
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#44598 - 05/06/04 02:37 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
i think his funniest is 'wonderfulness'. great stories.. also highly recommended are 'revenge', and 'to russell, my brother, whom i slept with'.. to be honest, they will all get you rollin.

if you have never heard any of this early stuff, go get some quick.. most of his comedy albums were recorded between 1965 and 1970.. i think 'himself' was his last album, and it came out in the early 80's. i have 4 of his records(yes vinyl), and i love every one.

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#44599 - 05/06/04 05:08 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17789
Loc: NoVA
God, I love that one. Riiiight.

That and the Chicken Heart. It still makes me laugh so hard I cry..

"I was smearin' that jello, man, all over the kitchen floor. I set the couch on fire! Ain't gonna get me, Chicken Heart!"
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#44600 - 05/06/04 05:10 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17789
Loc: NoVA
I have 3 on CD. I'll loan them to you.

My dad's got a bunch on vinyl.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#44601 - 05/07/04 03:39 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Tufelhundin Offline
buff

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 49
I guess I feel like a criminal. In a earlier post I was talking about shooting "LP's" with a bow. Is that the wrong terminology for "vinyl"? Either way, we built a ramp that was actually a wedge and I would have a friend roll the records down the ramp and we would shoot them. MMmmm...what a southern boy does for enjoyment...pity

Semper Fi
_________________________
Semper Fi 88-97
DI 94-96
Good night CHESTY where ever you are!

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#44602 - 05/07/04 09:55 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6252
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
No, LP is correct when referring to a vinyl album. Though "album" is also correct, it is really a misnomer when referring to a 33 and 3/3 LP record. Do you know what LP stands (stood) for? No "OLD" guys get to answer, just the young whippersnappers )

The term Album started back in the days of 78RPM records. At that speed they could only get one song per side of a disk. So they would put out book-like "albums" of records that had up to 6 records, each in it's own sleeve (page) in the album. Very Heavy. I have a few of them.

Wyn, You probably shot some good music in your younger days. And some of those LPs might be worth a lot of money today.

That makes me think of all the comic books I had, as a kid, that my mother threw out just before they became valuable. Although, in collecting, condition is everything, and most of those comic books were NOT in the best condition.

OY! talk about OT. Mea Culpa, mea culpa.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#44603 - 05/07/04 10:05 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
eightmanvt Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 62
Loc: Maryland
Was it Long Play????? Am I whipper snapper enough?

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#44604 - 05/07/04 10:13 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6252
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Well I don' know how "whippersnapperish" you are, but you're close enough to win a cigar. It stood for Long Playing.

After 78s, and the 45 single, to have a record you could put on, and have it play for 20 to 30 minutes, nonstop, made it, indeed, a 33 & 1/3 RPM "long playing" record album. I don't why the term "album" continued in use, but it did. Just habit I guess.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#44605 - 05/07/04 01:39 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
eightmanvt Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 62
Loc: Maryland
Ahhhh...long playing!! Excellent...and I'll take that cigar!!

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#44606 - 05/07/04 02:36 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
twodan19 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 624
Loc: Pembroke, Massachusetts
damn only one stogie left, better run to the store. thanks for reminding me.

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#44607 - 05/08/04 02:20 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10399
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Would the use of album not be similar as for a picture album? A collection of songs.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#44608 - 05/08/04 08:54 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6252
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Sounds good to me.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#44609 - 05/08/04 03:55 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
Speaking of cigars, twodan, I'm giving them up. Anyone interested in what I have left?
Por Larranga, Montecristo, pre-Embargo Counterfeit Cubans, Henry Clay, bunch of others, mostly corona sized. Probably in the neighborhood of 50-70 cigars.
I think I have one Punch Grand Cru Monarchos left, but that's gonna be my last.
Also a 300 count free standing ebony-veneered humidor.

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#44610 - 05/09/04 08:29 AM Re: One simple question for 2x6
twodan19 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 624
Loc: Pembroke, Massachusetts
my wife would have a new set of ear rings if i did take them off your hands. i have a birthday this month and have already started brainwashing my self that i too will quit that day. oh the joys of gently aging. faster growing forehead (sp), brown to silver hair, slight front pot, and aching back after yard work. why if it wasn't for this board, i might get bored.

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