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#46620 - 05/21/04 11:27 PM Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
edvacdude Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 61
Loc: DFW, Texas
Hello!
My wife and I bought a new house, and I spent some time upconverting the game room into a media room. The game room measures 16" X 14" X 10", and is somewhat sound insulated. It is wired for 7.1 surround sound with 16 AWG cable.

What I need now is a 7.1 receiver with matching speakers. I'd really appreciate your input on which combination you'd select. I'm sort of a newbie in home theater/DVD Audio, so any input will be gratefully accepted.

I'm evenly split between listening to music (classical, easy listening, pop, soft rock) and watching movies (action, sci fi).

For a receiver, I'm trying to decide between:
a. Yamaha RX-V2400
b. Onkyo TX-SR 801
c. Denon AVR-3805

For the speakers, these are my four options:
a. B&W (602 S3 fronts, LCR600 S3 center,ASW 650 sub, 601 S3 sides and rear)
b. Aperion (intimus 7.1 speaker system S-12 sub)
c. JBL Northridge (JBL E80 fronts, JBL 3C35 center, JBL E30 sides and rear, JBL E250P sub)
d. Axiom Epic 60 with extra pair of QS8s

Thanks very much for your time ... have a great day.

Ananth
_________________________
Denon AVR3805, DVD2900 Panny TH-42PX60U Sony CDPCX255 Axiom M80Ti,VP150,QS8(4) HSU VTF-3 MK3

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#46621 - 05/22/04 01:57 AM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
Haoleb Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 1488
Loc: Maine
Take it from me.. scratch that JBL off the list now. the axioms would completely blow away the JBL's. I had the old ND310. going to the M80's was such a difference, they are in a whole different class than the JBL's
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#46622 - 05/22/04 09:10 AM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
Zarak Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 1849
Loc: PA
There have been many comparisions to the B&W on here as well and the Axiom's beat them out.

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#46623 - 05/22/04 09:12 AM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
tonygeno Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/11/02
Posts: 149
Loc: America's Hometown
Each of these systems is going to sound very different. They are all good for what they are. If sonics is driving your decision you need to get out and listen to each of them (Axiom has a very dedicated and loyal customer base many of whom open up their homes for audition). Otherwise you won't know if their sonic presentation is one you'll want to live with. If you're not so picky about sonics, I'd say get the one that best matches your decor. Again, they're all good (but different) and opinions are opinions. You'll need to do a little work to figure out which is right for you.

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#46624 - 05/22/04 10:58 AM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
snippy Offline
devotee

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 427
Loc: San Luis Obispo, CA
I would definitely say go with the Denon 3805, it is the newest and most feature laden reciever on the market. Denon also has one of the best reputations around.
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#46625 - 05/22/04 03:23 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
the_shrubber Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 24
Hey and Welcome!

Along with seconding the comment above about auditioning the various speakers you're considering (at least the mains), let me suggest that you shouldn't feel obliged to have your subwoofer be part of whatever system you decide on. Unlike mains and cc's, subs don't have to be voice- or timbre-matched.

In fact, unless you insist that the cabinetry coordinates with your mains/surrounds, you're probably better off considering a sub from a specialized brand like SVS, Hsu, Velodyne, etc. I think you'll find (and most here would agree) that they represent a better bang/buck value. Do a search for subwoofer and you'll find a ton of threads to that effect, I'm sure.

Congrats on the new house; enjoy the hunt.

Roger

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#46626 - 05/22/04 05:32 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
For your musical tastes the Axioms would likely be a good choice but I question whether you need that many speakers in a room that size. If you go with Axioms a single pair of QS8s (located properly) would give you a pretty encompassing sound field.
I did audition some JBL E30s vs. Axiom M3s vs. Monitor Audio Bronze 2s. The JBLs had VERY bloated bass and a sssssssssizzzzzzling tweeter, but you would be using them as surrounds so maybe that wouldn't matter. The Axioms and MAs would both be better choices from the listening I have done. MA also has dipole surrounds, right?

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#46627 - 05/22/04 06:39 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
KC_Mike Offline
local

Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 209
Loc: KS
Out of the list you provided, I would choose the Denon receiver.

I wanted to echo what somebody else already said....forget about matching a sub from the same manufacturer of your speakers. Instead, pick your speakers of choice and mate them with a SVS, HSU, or even a Martin Logan. Although I am not a big fan of Martin Logan speakers, their subs are excellent.




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#46628 - 05/22/04 07:05 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
congrats on the new house. here is my .02 cents.

you are getting thumbs up on the denon, but the onkyo 801 would be a good choice also. i have the 701 powering m60's, 2 QS8's, and the VP 150. but my room is almost twice your size(28x26x8). i have PLENTY of sound to fill my room, and have never come close to maxing out the volume knob. i truly dont think you will be giving up anything with the 801..

not to mention, the set up,instruction manual, and remote control is much better on the onkyo products than the denon products. just my opinion based on my and others experience.

as far as speakers, as one person has mentioned, sound is a very specific thing.. it is important to buy what sounds good to YOU. try and find some speakers to audition, and decide which sound you like for yourself. and make sure you get a good sub. it is necessary for HT. dont skimp there.. you will regret it!

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#46629 - 05/23/04 12:25 AM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
willscary Offline
veteran

Registered: 10/19/03
Posts: 129
Loc: east central Wisconsin
Please don't flame me for my opinions!! I own an Outlaw 950 and a Parasound HCA-855a amp. The Outlaw has a ton of people who have never heard it that constantly bash it and the Parasound has an 85X5 power rating (It was bench tested at a dealer and put out 93 X 5 with all channels driven 20-20k). Last week I bought a Denon 1804 to put in the family room theater. It is rated at 90X6 and states "equal power amplifier section" in its features.

I tested the Denon against the Outlaw/Parasound Combo. Granted, the Denon was $500 and the Outlaw/Parasound combo set me back over $1300, but given the way people rag on the 950 and rave about Denon, I thought I would give my first hand impressions.

The Denon does not drive my speakers as well as the combo. At medium levels it just plain runs out of juice. It is quiet and really sounds pleasant, and it has the latest bells and whistles. The sub distance can be set (the Outlaw does not have this feature), but the Denon does not have the bass management capabilities of the 950. The 950 has a great remote compared to the Denon, and is MUCH easier to use than the Denon, and I have been an audio enthusiast for over 20 years, so I'm no newbie! I use a Home Theater Master MX-500 to better work the Denon system, but because it is not OEM like the 950's HTM SL-9000 remote, it still takes a little more to switch from, say, DVD to cable.

My speakers are M80s, VP-150, and QS-8s.

I sure hope this helps. The Denon is a decent receiver (better than I expected), but it does not match the 950/Parasound combo, and I think the 950 and 7100 combo would do well against any of the receivers in the price range.

I know the 1804 is not a 3804, but if they work similarly, I would suggest considering a 950 and perhaps the Outlaw 7100 amp. I know they have a special on them right now, which makes the price very competitive with the Denon 3804/ 3805.
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#46630 - 05/23/04 12:54 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
Ray3 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 2841
Loc: Rochester, NY
Anath, the 3805 is an excellent choice for the receiver. Denon makes consistently excellent products that give you a good value for the $$$.

Relative to speakers, try and listen to the B&W 703s (the next step up from the 603s). To my ears (do a search on the forum for other similar opinions on this), the M60s and the 703s were very similar. The 703s cost about 3x the M60s. Made my choice very easy.

Also, the Qs8s are unbelieveable and B&W had nothing that came close.

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#46631 - 05/23/04 09:59 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
edvacdude Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 61
Loc: DFW, Texas
Hello you all,
THANKS for the helpful replies ... I APPRECIATE every one of your posts.

I"m going to drop the JBL Northridge system from my speaker list, and the Yamaha RX-V2400 from the receiver list.

Bouncing off one of the posts that dealt with the size of the room, is the decision of M60 vs. M50 mostly driven by room size? Or are M60s a superior speaker, irrespective of room size?

Thanks VERY much you all.

Ananth

_________________________
Denon AVR3805, DVD2900 Panny TH-42PX60U Sony CDPCX255 Axiom M80Ti,VP150,QS8(4) HSU VTF-3 MK3

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#46632 - 05/23/04 11:40 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10386
Ananth, in my view you should consider both the 2400 and 3805, which both feature automatic calibration and equalization(or for a closer price match, the new 2805).

As to the speakers, the M60s use a 5 1/4" driver for the midrange, which appears to give a slightly more forward and detailed presentation than the M50s, which use their 6 1/2" woofers to cover the midrange.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#46633 - 11/14/04 09:39 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
edvacdude Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 61
Loc: DFW, Texas
JohnK, it took me a while to do the actual buy. I put in an order for the following 30 minutes back :
- a pair of M80s
- two pairs of QS8s (sides, surrounds)
- a VP150
- EP500

As you all were kind enough to evaluate, this was for my media room that measures 14' X 16' X 9'. I was initially leaning towards M60, however, J.C. at Axiom customer service, persuaded me towards the M80s.

I decided to forego the home test for the AV123 Rocket RS-750(and an appropriate package); they did seem like good speakers, however, if I needed to return them, it would cost me 2X shipping

I might order Aperion's tower speaker (Intimus 522-PT) with their bookshelves to round over a 7.1 configuration and B&W 602.3s to do a home comparison. If I do, I'll post my (subjective) opinions, if y'all would like that.

Appreciate your help VERY much guys. Honestly, this is a great forum.

Ananth
_________________________
Denon AVR3805, DVD2900 Panny TH-42PX60U Sony CDPCX255 Axiom M80Ti,VP150,QS8(4) HSU VTF-3 MK3

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#46634 - 11/14/04 09:54 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
MykeW Offline
local

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 289
Loc: Canada
Congrads edvacdude, thats one AWESOME system you have coming. Welcome to the EP sub club.

Get ready for the jaw cramps that will follow after you first listen to the system and find you can't get your jaw off the floor.

I can say for certain you'll LOVE the EP500. It's beautiful and is a real performer.

Be sure to post your impressions and any pics...

Which finish did you choose?

Enjoy, Jag

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#46635 - 11/14/04 10:50 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6250
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Ananth,

I don't know what you're current system comprises, but unless it's top of the line, you're gonna be blown away with what you've ordered. The EP500 will finish it off. Congrats, and I hope your really enjoy the new toys. Please DO post your impressions and, if possible, pictures of you new system.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#46636 - 11/14/04 11:35 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
MykeW Offline
local

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 289
Loc: Canada
In reply to:

If I do, I'll post my (subjective) opinions, if y'all would like that.




Yes Yes Yes.....

Jag

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#46637 - 11/15/04 10:17 AM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
edvacdude Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 61
Loc: DFW, Texas
Jag: I ordered the Boston Cherry finish: the walls in the media room are light cream, so I thought the cherry finish would be a nice contrast. I will definitely post pictures

Ajax: I had a pair of Infinity Overture series 3s that died on me a year back. They were the best I could find at Circuit City in 1997. They were coupled with an Onkyo Integra 800 series receiver (forget the actual model, it's in storage), and a CC3 center channel speaker (no rear). I'm hoping that the M80s will rival the quality of the B&W 700 series ... what do you guys think?

Ananth
_________________________
Denon AVR3805, DVD2900 Panny TH-42PX60U Sony CDPCX255 Axiom M80Ti,VP150,QS8(4) HSU VTF-3 MK3

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#46638 - 11/15/04 10:34 AM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
mwc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 958
Loc: Texas(DFW)..that country to th...
I had heard a lot of good things about the DiAural crossover technology employed by Aperion so I ordered a pair of Intimus 522D-LRs (about a year ago). I wanted to compare them to my Axiom M22s and KEF Q15s and KEF RDM2s.

The build quality of the Aperions was first rate and the packaging was truely impressive. The speaker cabinet was much more solid than the M22s and the Q15s but not the RDM2s (not really a fair compairson as the RDMs were MSRP $1200). The 522Ds look great with the grills on. Aperion's customer service seemed to be on par with Axiom's. The customer service guy was very nice and accommodating even after I told him my opinion on the sound of the speakers.

That is about the only good thing I have to say about the Aperions. I hooked them up in a two channel configuration and put on some music. My son was there with me to listen. After about 2 minutes, I looked over at my son and he had this contorted look on his face. He said," turn it off, I can't stand any more". I agreed. He left the room and I stayed and listend for about 15 more minutes trying to be fair.

These speakers had a very harsh crispness in the upper frequencies I can only describe as bright (not the "detailed" kind of bright), the kind of "bright" that makes you reach for the remote to turn down the volume. The mids (particularly vocals) were "shouty" in an "in your face" kind of way very much like a barking dog. The Sound stage was flat as in a wall of sound rather than a perception of space, depth was non existent. Bass output on these speakers is not even worth mentioning.

I consider the Axioms to be one of the most well balanced speakers I've ever heard making them easy to listen to. By contrast the Aperions were the most unbalanced (related to frequency continuity) I've ever heard. They were the most fatiguing speakers I've ever heard.

The next day I gave them another chance thinking that maybe I wasn't in the right frame of mind or something. I listened for about 30 minutes this time. After my listening session I headed over to the Tylenol bottle to releive the headache and then promptly packed them up and went right on down to the UPS store and shipped them back to Aperion. Other Aperion speakers such as the 522D-PT may be great. They certainly look good on paper.

I don't mean to insult owners of Aperion products nor the company itself. This is just my honest opinion and reflects my tastes in music playback toys. YMMV. I strongly urge you to listen for yourself and come to your own conclusions.
_________________________
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#46639 - 11/15/04 12:19 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6250
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I've heard neither the Infinities (does one change the "y" to an "ie" when it's a proper noun?) nor the B&Ws. But, as our own Ray3 states above, he did some extensive research before buying his Axioms, and he says his M60s sound very much like the B&W 703s, but for a lot less money. Your M80s will have a sonic signature almost identical to the M60s with a bit lower extension, and bunch more volume. Based on his experience, I think you'll be very happy with the M80s. (P.S. If you're not................BLAME RAY! )
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#46640 - 11/15/04 01:40 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
edvacdude Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 61
Loc: DFW, Texas
Jag,
Have you listened to the EP350 and compared it with the EP500 ... is EP500 clearly better, or were the differences subtle?

Will appreciate your feedback, thanks!

Ananth
_________________________
Denon AVR3805, DVD2900 Panny TH-42PX60U Sony CDPCX255 Axiom M80Ti,VP150,QS8(4) HSU VTF-3 MK3

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#46641 - 11/15/04 02:15 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
littleb Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 1235
Loc: Moorhead, Minnesota/US
It was my utter disappointment with a pair of B&W602s3 that lead me to try Axiom speakers in the first place. The difference was night and day.

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#46642 - 11/15/04 03:41 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
LT61 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 836
Loc: Illinois.
I looked at the Northridge JBL's (E80's), before buying Axiom M60's..........I Am also a former JBL owner....about the only good feature left, is a nice "fit and finish".
They have spent the last couple of years putting their poly-plas drivers in different shaped cabinets.....sadly, it's just a shell of the formerly USA produced product, and like many other companies, all that's left is.....just a "name brand" to stick on any product they choose.
For the speakers,....go with the Axioms.


Edited by LT61 (11/15/04 03:55 PM)
_________________________
LIFE: "Choices, balance, and timing"

(Larryism)

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#46643 - 11/15/04 05:33 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
Lexxen Offline
veteran

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 109
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Ajax -- being an English major I can tell you that for proper nouns you do not need to change the "y" to an "ie" however some professors will disagree. It really just depends on who you're writing the essay for.



Lexxen = post whore?
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#46644 - 11/15/04 05:59 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6250
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Thank you. I thought that was the case, but was unsure.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#46645 - 11/15/04 07:03 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
edvacdude! I had a pair of Infinity Composition Overture IIIs also from Circuit City - driven by a top of the line Harman Kardon receiver. Got the Infinity RS3s for surrounds and the pricey Infinity CC3 center channel speaker. What did I know? On a lark I picked up a Merak MC6H center channel speaker from ubid for $29.00. WHAT?!?! That $29 speaker just humiliated the expensive Infinity center channel. Did a bit of research, made a few calls and found out that Merak was the down scale step brother of the Axiom lineup. I picked up a pair of M3Tis and IMHO the M3s were better than the $3000 Infinities. That was it for me. I sold the Overture 3s and have found audio bliss in various Axiom and Axiom made speakers.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#46646 - 11/15/04 10:46 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
MykeW Offline
local

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 289
Loc: Canada
Hey Ananth, sorry for the late reply its difficult for me to keep in touch with the forum during the day.

Unfortunately, I haven't had an opportunity to listen to the EP350. The EP500 and 600's have just come out so it will take time before there are professional reviews or comparisons from people that have heard both.

For me the decision was easy. Axiom is known for giving accurate specs and descriptions of their products and their reputation for quality products is well accepted all over the internet. Based simply on the difference in price and stated specs I think you can say yes the EP350 is "better". For me IMHO no question. The more important question for anyone buying one is do you need or want all that the EP500 can offer. For me the answer was a definite YES.

The bigger question for most folks I guess is not between the EP350, but between other HSU and SVS models of comparable price. The answer to this only time will tell when the new subs are reviewed both professionally and by folks like us.

I'm very much enamored with this sub. I like the fact that it matches or will match my other speakers when they arrive. I love the way it looks and to me it sounds great. It plays incredibly low, loudly and cleanly. Living on this side of the boarder also makes choosing an Axiom sub an easier choice.

Axiom historically has always made excellent products and by all accounts most would agree the older subs are very good, but just didn't offer the same price/performance to US customers as the competition. Axiom has clearly set out to change the tide on this with the new subs and given their reputation I don't doubt that this is what they've done.

That's my take on making my decision with going with the EP500 and I honestly believe you will be more than thrilled with what it can do.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Cheers, Jag


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#46647 - 11/16/04 12:32 AM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
MykeW Offline
local

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 289
Loc: Canada
Ooops!

In reply to:

I think you can say yes the EP350 is "better"




I meant EP500 just to be clear

jag

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#46648 - 11/19/04 01:01 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
edvacdude Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 61
Loc: DFW, Texas
Hello all,
Finally ...

My M80s (2), VP150, QS8s (4) and EP500 are here. The Denon AVR 3805 and DVD 3910 are also here. I'm excited and concerned at the same time Concern: want to make sure that they have a chance to fully shine ... if someone would be kind enought to share with me what they feel on the following, I'd be very grateful.
a. my room measures 14' (W) 16' (L) 9-7' (H). What would be an optimum position for the fronts (m80S) ..? In the forum some have mentioned "toeing" in the M80 .. what does that mean ...?
b. The speaker ports in the walls are all 48' high. Since I plan to listen to both DVD Audio and movies, do I use a different height for wall mounting sides versus rears?
c. I have QS8s for both sides and rears. Elsewhere in the audio world, I've seen recommendations of a monopolar speaker for the sides and a dipolar speaker for the rear. But QS8 does not seem to fit in either category (quadpolar?) Should I consider returning the side QS8s for a M22?
d. The side speaker ports in the wall are at exactly at the mid point of the side wall. (the listening position will be in the center of the room, midpoint) Is this an acceptable location for mounting the side speakers? Or should they be positioned a little further to the rear?

Would really appreciate your help guys.

Thanks a bunch.
Ananth
_________________________
Denon AVR3805, DVD2900 Panny TH-42PX60U Sony CDPCX255 Axiom M80Ti,VP150,QS8(4) HSU VTF-3 MK3

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#46649 - 11/19/04 02:57 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
Wow! Congratulations. That is going to be spectacular! When is the party, and what should I bring

I am envious of your system, and wish you many happy years enjoying it with your loved ones.

Good questions! Your precision moved me to response.

a. "toeing in" the speakers means that the drivers are slightly pointed towards the listening position rather than parallel with the side walls. You will have to experiment with placement, relative to not only how much toe angle you want, but also the proximity of the speakers to the side walls, etc. Just play around until it sounds good to you in your room. There is no absolute right answer.

b. My experience suggests that the height of the surrounds is probably not that critical, and I wouldn't go tearing up sheetrock unless you find that you are horribly unstatisfied and are laying awake at night wondering if that strategy might help.

c. The discussions I've seen about 7.1 differentiate between the "surrounds" (what you are referring to as the "side" speakers) and the "rear" speaker(s). My understanding is NOT like yours; I had seen little if any debate about using multi-polar speakers for surround, but some people do seem to prefer having direct-radiating speakers in the rear. Again, it depends somewhat on the room. Likewise, your receiver may allow you to switch the speakers based on listening mode and source (using the direct-radiating rears for 5.1 channel audio and not using the surrounds). If I were you (and I clearly am not), I would try what you have for a bit. If you find that multi-channel audio is somehow not satisfying, I would recommend swapping the rear QS8's for a pair of M2 or M22's, but I would NOT put direct-radiating speakers on the sides.

d. Generally, people seem to advocate having the surround speakers either a bit in front of or a bit behind the listening position.

For reference, I am currently running 5.1 in a ~13x24 room with sloped ceilings from 9-17'. I find the experience very immersive and quite satisfactory. So all my conjecture about your 7.1 setup is based on reading others' experience, not my own.

Hope you enjoy your new system! Post pictures!
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#46650 - 11/19/04 03:56 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6250
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
In reply to:

I have QS8s for both sides and rears. Elsewhere in the audio world, I've seen recommendations of a monopolar speaker for the sides and a dipolar speaker for the rear.


Hmmm? That seems to contradict what I've heard. I've heard dipolar (or bipolar or quadpolar) on the sides, and monopoles for the rears to be used with SACD and DVD-A as well as rear surrounds for 7.1. If you're not into SACD or DVD-A, I would think having QS8s on the sides AND in the rear would be FABULOUS! Even if you are into those two formats, you won't lose anything with 4 QS8s. When I go to 7.1, I'm thinking seriously of just adding 2 more QS8s.

Alan (Axioms' resident expert) has said (emphasis is mine, not Alan's):

"7. If I do add the extra two speakers at the rear for a 7.1-channel system, should I use direct-radiating speakers like the M2i or M3ti or the quad polar QS8s or QS4s?
In a general way, it's best to use rear speakers that are identical to the surrounds at the sides, although there is some controversy about this. Using identical surrounds at the sides and rear guarantees the same tonal balance and dispersion traits from all four surround speakers. However, many Axiom system owners report excellent results using QS8 or multidirectional surrounds at the sides and two direct-radiating M2i's at the rear.
"

And:

"9. I love the sense of surround envelopment that I get from my QS8 multipolar surround speakers with movie soundtracks, but I've read that the new DVD-A and SACD multichannel music formats are mixed using direct-radiating speakers at the rear. Will the QS8s work well for music playback?
Most of us do not have room to install two types of surround speakers--multipolar types for movie playback and direct-radiating speakers for surround music playback. A few A/V receivers have outputs for two types of surround speakers to meet this need directly, but experience suggests that for many rooms and setups, a multidirectional-type surround will function admirably for movie surround OR music playback. In real life, much of the ambient sound reaching our ears in clubs, auditoriums and concert halls comprises a rich mix of reflected sound, and given that most domestic rooms do not have the dimensions to generate this melange of reflections, a multipolar surround is the preferred choice. This subject remains somewhat controversial.
"

And, from the Axiom FAQ:

"Where should I place my surround speakers?
Ideally, surround speakers should be either wall-mounted or stand-mounted to either side of the couch or primary listening area, from one to six feet higher than seated listeners' ears, and slightly forward or rearwards of the listening area if you wish. Axiom's Quadpolar surrounds are especially versatile and can yield excellent performance with stand or wall-mounting to the rear as well as at side locations. (see our dedicated stands for the QS Surround speakers in the Store). Rear center speakers for 6.1 and 7.1 installations are intended to go on the rear wall at about the same height as the surround speakers.




_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#46651 - 11/19/04 04:34 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
Jeez, Jack. You are just The Researcher. I'm glad you put some original thought into the beginning of that post, or I'd really have to give you crap.

Just kidding. You know I'm just bitter because I did not have the diligence or discipline to cite the sources of my ramblings as you did.
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#46652 - 11/19/04 04:53 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
edvacdude Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 61
Loc: DFW, Texas
Guys,
I thought I looked up a web site last night that had pictures of speaker arrangements (DVD audio vs. movies), which recommended monopoles for dvd audio in the surround position, and dipoles for movies in the rear speaker position.

I'm afraid I'm unable to locate that site ...

However, the information you all provided was authoritative, and I'm going to follow your recommendation:
a. position the QS8s if possible a few feet above the ear level (surround and rear)
b. evaluate QS8s for DVD audio material, if they don't work out, substitute the rears for M22s.

Ananth
_________________________
Denon AVR3805, DVD2900 Panny TH-42PX60U Sony CDPCX255 Axiom M80Ti,VP150,QS8(4) HSU VTF-3 MK3

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#46653 - 11/19/04 08:00 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
MykeW Offline
local

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 289
Loc: Canada
Okay, I'm also wiring up my room for the surrounds and I have a couple of questions to what I've read as being recommended.

I know that the Qs8's are supposed to be VERY forgiving but there seems to be some discrepancies on the recommendations.

In reply to:

from one to six feet higher than seated listeners' ears, and slightly forward or rearwards of the listening area if you wish.



As Ajax post shows' Alan's write up suggests placing the surrounds 1->6 feet above listening level yet the QSS stands (designed specifically for the QS surround speakers) are only 36" high which would put the QS8's at about exactly listening level.

1) In actual practise has anyone found much improvement in placing the QS8's higher than listening level?



Alan also says you can place them "slightly forward or rearwards of the listening area IF you wish".


2) Does this mean placing them either forward or rearward is mostly optional and doesn't yeild any improvement? Has anyone found any improvement themselves by moving them forward or rearward?

I know I'm kind of asking "picky" questions BUT I would like to wire up my room for the QS8's this weekend so that I'll be ready to Plug & Play the QS8's when they get here.

The easiest placement for me is about ear level and maybe an inch or two behind the listening postion. So what do ya'll think can I go ahead as planned and wire up or should I really wait to experiment....?


Thanks, Jag

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#46654 - 11/19/04 08:21 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
I'm here for you, buddy. Useless, but here

How wide is your room at the listening point?

I think the reason the stands are so short is because it would not be practical or safe to have them taller.

Theoretically, the idea behind the quadpolar surrounds is to bounce a lot of signals around (make the surround content more diffuse). If you have them too low, a lot of the signal is going to end up being absorbed by the rug or the furniture instead of getting to your ears first. Likewise, the tweeter mounting angle suggests to me that you might be happier getting at least *some* direct signal (by mounting the speakers behind or in front of you) instead of getting basically only reflected sound or off-axis response (if they are in line with the listening position).

My *experience* is with the QS8's on the back wall about 2 feet above and a few feet to the sides of the couch (previously) and on the side wall about four feet above and three feet behind the couch (now - different room). Both setups were great, but it is MUCH more spacious now since I have some "room" behind the listening position.

I like mine slightly behind and above the listening position. My perception is that it gives me good fidelity and an excellent mix of direct and reflected sound. But they ARE really flexible, and how you live your life in your listening room matters a great deal.

Good luck. Post pictures. Remember to stay hydrated - wiring is thirsty work.
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#46655 - 11/19/04 08:22 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6250
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Michael, the QSS stands are a less than optimal compromise. They can't be made any taller, and still be stable. They are for those who may not have an other choice but to mount them on stands. If possible, try to get the QS8s at least a foot higher than your ears.

I'm not sure why it is preferable to get the them "slightly forward or rearwards of the listening area," as opposed to directly to the side. But, I have mine a foot or two behind my seating, and I love them there.

Many of us have to compromise when it comes to placement. What you do, is your call. Don't agonize over it. Do the best you can, and don't worry about it.

Edit: I HATE it when Tom is quicker than I.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#46656 - 11/19/04 08:27 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17768
Loc: NoVA
Jack, you hate it when ANYONE is quicker than you!

My QS4s are very high up (right next to the ceiling and a bit forward of the listening position. I'm growing to like them more and more there, but I think it would be better if they were slightly behind, and probably a bit lower.

Woohoo! Another useless post!
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#46657 - 11/19/04 09:07 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
MykeW Offline
local

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 289
Loc: Canada
Thanks, Tom, Ajax, Kcarlile. And Tom you're not useless but very helpful! All of you!

Ooops I guess I'll need to be filling a few holes in my walls...

The room is about 11' feet wide and 18' long. I'll be sitting about 3' from the back wall.

I could place them a bit higher which seems to be what you're all saying. I just thought having them inline would give a bit better directional sound and given the multiple drivers the ambient sound wouldn't be a problem.

If I place them where I planned now they would be close to < 3' from the back corner. This is why I have them planned to be inline with the listening position because I thought I read a few feet from the back wall/corner is best .


How close to the back wall can I get?

Unfortunately, I have a door on one side of the room and a fireplace on the otherside such that if I want the QS8'S a similar distance from either the front or back wall I only have a few inches in which I can move them laterallly. I should beable to play with the vertical position more, but I'll likely have the faceplate ( which covers the opening in the wall for the wires) showing and not behind the speaker as planned.

Thanks all, Jag




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#46658 - 11/19/04 09:23 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17768
Loc: NoVA
I'd put them only about a foot behind or ahead of the listening position; the manual has some measurement like that. I don't think it'll be a big deal to have them lined up exactly with the listening position (horizontally).

_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#46659 - 11/19/04 11:29 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
My wife thought it was nice that you didn't add "completely" to your comment about my uselessness. Take 'em where you can get 'em.

See, context is everything. I think your instincts are probably good relative to your room configuration and the lateral placement. I probably wouldn't go any deeper into the corners either. But I would raise them up a bit still. It will be fine. No worries.

That's going to be a great system, especially with that sub (of which we are all jealous).
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#46660 - 11/19/04 11:59 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10386
Michael, for surrounds in 5.1, if other considerations allow, position them 2-3' above ear level and a similar distance behind the seating position(but not closer than 1' from the rear wall).
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#46661 - 11/20/04 02:49 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
MykeW Offline
local

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 289
Loc: Canada
LOL. Tom, that's just a comment my wife would make LOL

And I would have proved her right today...

I finally figured out why the Home Depot wire in Canada is so much more "expensive" compared to you american friends. Prices are in metric....Daaaaaaaaahhhhhh! ( my only excuse is most things in construction are still not done metric here )

Anyway, I got the 16 and 14 AWG in-wall stuff (its actaully very nice wire) and will be pulling wires today for the side are rear surrounds.

Thanks again all, Jag



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#46662 - 11/20/04 02:53 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
bray Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 1792
Loc: Colorado
I'm glad I'm not at your house today.
Fiberglass in cracks and crevices isnt fun.
Unless your into those kind of things.
_________________________
LIFE IS SHORT.
DON'T BE A DICK.

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#46663 - 11/20/04 02:57 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
MykeW Offline
local

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 289
Loc: Canada
Actually, all the yucky stuff is done. I've already made the holes and pulled string through the walls so that now all I have to do is connect the wire to the string and pull.

Now should a string break.....

I don't expect any problems though.

Cheers, Jag

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#46664 - 11/20/04 03:40 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
bray Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 1792
Loc: Colorado
OK lets all send good vibes to JAGs house.
On the count of 3.......no breaking string, no breaking string, no breaking string...................
1. 2. 3.
Hope this helps.
_________________________
LIFE IS SHORT.
DON'T BE A DICK.

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#46665 - 11/21/04 12:14 AM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
MykeW Offline
local

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 289
Loc: Canada
DONE! I'm wired and ready for those surrounds.

Thanks for all the good VIBES bray and et al. everything went smoothly

If anyone wants to send more good vibes so that I get the rest of my Axioms next week that would be REALLY appreciated....!

Ohhhhh the waiting, wimper wimper...

Cheers, Jag



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#46666 - 11/21/04 12:26 AM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
bray Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 1792
Loc: Colorado
O.K., everybody one more time.

1.2.3.

There you go, hope that helps.
_________________________
LIFE IS SHORT.
DON'T BE A DICK.

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#46667 - 12/04/04 01:57 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
edvacdude Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 61
Loc: DFW, Texas
Guys,
I haven't posted any pics yet because of several issues (wiring, equipment) that I faced over the last two weeks. While I'm waiting for the wiring firm to fix issues with the in wall wiring, and a new EP500 (the one I received was damaged in shipment), can I check with you guys on a speaker wiring issue?

The media room has in wall 16 guage speaker wiring. The shortest run is around 10 feet(front speakers). The longest (surround back speakers) is probably 30 feet (routed over the ceiling in the attic).

It's probably difficult if not impossible to replace the existing wiring in the walls.

Question: for my speaker arrangement (M80 fronts, VP150 center, QS8 for surrounds and rears), would I hear an audible difference if I use 12 guage wire? If so, I'll probably have to run it under the carpet, I guess.

I read so many contrasting opinions (audioholics, crutchfield, etc), that your opinions would clinch the matter in my mind.

Thanks again.
Ananth
_________________________
Denon AVR3805, DVD2900 Panny TH-42PX60U Sony CDPCX255 Axiom M80Ti,VP150,QS8(4) HSU VTF-3 MK3

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#46668 - 12/04/04 02:12 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
Here is a link to a host of wire questions and a wire table for the different gauges and lengths.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#46669 - 12/04/04 04:40 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6250
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
As the table that wid provided shows, if your 30 foot runs are to 8 ohm, or 6 ohm, speakers, you should have no problem. If you're doing a 30 foot run to 4 a ohm speaker, you might. I don't really know if there would be an audible difference if you went with 12 gauge wire, but I doubt it. I use 12 gauge, just for the peace of mind it gives me.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#46670 - 12/04/04 08:55 PM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
edvacdude Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 61
Loc: DFW, Texas
Wid/Ajax,
Thanks VERY much for your input. Since the long run (30-35 feet) is to the QS8 at the rear (6 ohm speaker) I should be OK.

Appreciate it!
Ananth
_________________________
Denon AVR3805, DVD2900 Panny TH-42PX60U Sony CDPCX255 Axiom M80Ti,VP150,QS8(4) HSU VTF-3 MK3

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#46671 - 12/08/04 12:13 AM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
edvacdude Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 61
Loc: DFW, Texas
Good things are worth the wait ...?
I finally received a new EP500 ... the one I received earlier emitted a hum whenever I turned it on. Axiom support had me remove a screw a the back of the sub which didn't fix it. They thought it was an amp issue caused by shiping damage, and sent me a new one pronto (which didn't have that issue). Brent at Axiom Support was extremely responsive/helpful -- their support team is a pleasure to work with.

The structured wiring guys were able to help me out. They cut open the drywall and ran two pairs of two conductor wires to each surround/rear speaker (they bound the pair with duct tape every 5 feet or so). They twisted the ends of two pairs and thus made a 12 guage wire from two pairs of 16 guage. Other than the dry wall fix (which should happen in a few days), I'm set.

In 1-2 days I should have everything set up, and I'll let you guys know how it worked out

Thanks for ALL the input.
Ananth
_________________________
Denon AVR3805, DVD2900 Panny TH-42PX60U Sony CDPCX255 Axiom M80Ti,VP150,QS8(4) HSU VTF-3 MK3

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#46672 - 12/08/04 12:19 AM Re: Axiom vs B&W vs Aperion vs JBL Northridge
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6250
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Glad everything worked out for you, Ananth.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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