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#48435 - 06/07/04 02:44 PM Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
jeffbridges Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 25
I didn't have the ballz to make my first post "M22 or M60's," :-), so I will ask it a different way! I am 60/40 HT / Music, and am trying to not have to compromise on one vs the other.

The biggest challenge I have is, not so much a weird room size, per say, but how we have it set up with furniture. I sit in a chair that happens to be directly in front of the right main. (8 ft away though) Additionally, there are large "holes" in the walls to go to other rooms, one of which must be 8X12. Also, there seems to be a friggin window everywere I wanna put a speaker, so... I guessed that pictures would speak louder than words so there is a drawing in the next post down - THANKS AJAX!

Specific areas I'd like your input. 1) Considering my mains will be 16 ft apart, yet only 8-10 feet away from the primary seating area; is that enough room for the M60's to "breath". With a little toe in, can I expect a seamless soundstage, or would I be better off with the 22's. 2) What do you guys think about my options, short term and long term for the surrounds? (Don't expect you will have much of an opinion without looking at the pic at the above url. If you do, you will see my dilemna) 3) lastly, the right main, if I go with the M60's would be closer to the wall that probably considered ideal (less than 10 inches.) I would like the front of the speaker to be no more than 34" from the wall (ever present WAF,)and since the M60s are SO deep (25")I might have an issue. M22's would work much better as I would have a bunch more room to play with, but again may not satisfy my craving for a more seamless mid bass experience.

I love bass, I like the rattle your foundation 20Hz stuff, but just as much like the PUNCH kind of bass with rock and roll. What I dont like is that sloppy bluh blu bluh kinda of muddy crap I hear, more often than not. I plan to add a HSU vtf3 sub, but wonder if it will blend well enough with the M22's (thus me already "almost" deciding on the M60s, (except for the space from wall limitation I have)) My neighbor has Silverlines (high end monitors) and a high end sub, but there seems to be something missing in the middle (even though he thinks it sounds great.) I suspect I am talking about the 60 - 100 Hz range. Highs are crystal clear, and bass will thump, something just sounds a little "off."

I would love to be able to save $400 bucks and get the M22's, even if only for the short term, then "demote" them to rears later and add the M60's as mains but after speaking to Jean-Frank at axiom, he dismissed that idea and suggested the QS surrounds. I tend to think he is right considering how close the rears will be to our ears. I likely would benefit from the wider spread of sound from the QS8s.
(again see the diagram and you will see what I mean)
I dont expect a perfect answer, and I know the best way to be able to tell is to buy both and return, but I am a tightass, and I am starting out from scratch. Oh yea, I am going to get the 3805 with plans to add a 2-channle amp later if I dont get enough OOPMF to satisfy me initially.

Guys - thanks for your advice, I am looking forward to it, and thanks Axiom, for a place like this to freely discuss the best options. Jeff Bridges


Edited by jeffbridges (06/07/04 03:01 PM)

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#48436 - 06/07/04 02:47 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6214
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Ta Da! Nice drawing, by the way.


_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#48437 - 06/07/04 02:59 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
Capn_Pickard Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 1056
Loc: Arlington, VA (NOVA)
Have you thought about changing everything up, or are you stuck with where your tv is?

Because, if you were to move teh TV onto the right wall, the front woudl be more symetrical. You could place the couch about five feet from the right wall (leaving space to walk behind it). This right wall woudl then be a perfect place to put your 7.1 in the future. Then, above where the TV curently is, you could put one surround and on the wall, in between the two hallways, you could put the other one.

That would give you a frnot spread of about 14 feet, and a viewing distance of about 15 feet (nearly perfect).

I guess the one drawback is that you'd be placing a TV in front of what is (I suspect) a very nice arched window (i.e. WAF = bad)

Anyway - you're definitely not up SH*t creek just yet. Your options are endless.

However, I'd get away from your current set-up if you can, just to align your viewing area with the TV, and have a more symetrical listening area.

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#48438 - 06/07/04 03:06 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
jeffbridges Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 25
Hey Capn - Yea, that arched window was about 3 grand and looks out over (what will soon be a rose garden,) so once again WAF rules... It One option I *might* have is to put the TV on the other side of the fireplace in the corner, but I dont think that would help me too much with what we are discussing here. So, with all that said, I am really trying to figure out how to make the best of this crap hand I have been dealt.

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#48439 - 06/07/04 03:11 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
Capn_Pickard Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 1056
Loc: Arlington, VA (NOVA)
How about moving the TV to the bottom left corner (where the sub is) and adjust accordingly? Maybe have the couch on the right wall (still five feet out or so - looking out the new window onto the roses) and place some of the other chairs around the top left of the room. Then, your couch will be perpendicular (sp?) to both the fireplace (focal point), TV (focal point) and looking right at the expensive windoe (focal point).

Again, you've got lots of options. Take a saturday, get some sweat pants on, invite a buddy over (entice him with beer, if necc.) and start moving stuff around and sitting to see how it feels. Get your wife involved - you never know what kind of input she may have that is more compromising than you first thought.

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#48440 - 06/07/04 03:33 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6214
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
First, lets get the obvious question out of the way. If the answer to this question is "NO," then I humbly apologize because you've been asked this question 800 million times and are sick of answering it. Are you THE Jeff Bridges?

OK. Definitely NOT and easy room. Lets get rid of a few misconceptions. First, according to Alan, our resident, Axiom employed, expert, the rear ported speakers can be as close to the back wall as 3 inches without causing any problems. Second, The M60s are 15 inches deep, not 25 inches. So, you could have the front edge of the 60s only 18 inches or so from wall.

Having the mains 16 feet apart, and sitting only 8 feet from then is NOT the ideal situation. However, because of room constraints, furniture placement, and the WAF, very few of us are able to achieve the ideal. Do the best you can, and don't worry about it. Any possibility of switching what is apparently a plant (just to the left of the fireplace), with the left main speaker? That would get the mains a few feet closer together an help the soundstage.

If you go with the QS series surrounds (and I agree with Jean-Frank that you should. They are fabulous surround speakers!), here's what the Axiom FAQ recommends:

"Ideally, surround speakers should be either wall-mounted or stand-mounted to either side of the couch or primary listening area, from one to six feet higher than seated listeners' ears, and slightly forward or rearwards of the listening area if you wish. Axiom's Quadpolar surrounds are especially versatile and can yield excellent performance with stand or wall-mounting to the rear as well as at side locations."

Let that be your guide as to placement.

In my opinion, you should go with the M60s. Here's my reasoning. That's a pretty good sized room (352 sq. ft.). I didn't notice ceiling height, but if it's only 8 ft, that's 2816 cubic ft. (and that's not taking into consideration the adjoining spaces). I feel the 60s would do a better job filling that space. Also, I had the 22s with a HSU STF-2, and felt a lacking in the upper bass/lower mid range with that combination. I replaced the 22s with 60s and I no longer felt that lacking. From what you had to say on that subject, I fear that the 22s with sub, "may not satisfy your craving for a more seamless mid bass experience." The 22s are fabulous speakers, and there are many 22 owners who have NOT had the same experience as I, so this is only my opinion. Were I able, I would have kept the 22s AND the 60s.

I think the VTF-3 would work well with either speaker, and provide you with tight, musical, yet substantial bass.

Keep us posted, and ask questions.

Just saw the ceiling height at 10 feet. So that means 3520 cubic feet.


Edited by Ajax (06/07/04 03:40 PM)
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#48441 - 06/07/04 03:47 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
i agree with ajax.. if you are over 3000 sq ft, the M60's would be the better choice. and you should have NO concerns with the VTF-3, that will have plenty of solid, stable, ample bass.

as you stated, your config is not the best in the world, but you can only make a hand with the cards you are given. at the very least, even with a 'not so great speaker placement', you will still have a delicious sounding system with the speakers you have mentioned. hooked up with that denon, and you will be living the high life.

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#48442 - 06/07/04 04:10 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
jeffbridges Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 25
You guys kick ass.. One point of clarification.. The main listening area has 20 ft ceilings, (maybe more) so I guess we are talking about 7,000 cubic feet. The 10 ft ceilings are the kitchen in the room behind the couch.. All the more supports the 60's, huh..

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#48443 - 06/07/04 04:13 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
jeffbridges Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 25
Ajax - I wish I was the "real" Jeff Bridges.. If I were, I would just hire you guys to come set it all up and have a big party!!!

Ajax said "Having the mains 16 feet apart, and sitting only 8 feet from then is NOT the ideal situation." Well, is there any validity to moving the right main on the other side of the TV? If we did this, then the right main would be on plane with my left ear... Doest sound good, but thought I'd ask.

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#48444 - 06/07/04 04:14 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
Capn_Pickard Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 1056
Loc: Arlington, VA (NOVA)
yeah - definitely go with the 60s. I bought a pair for a smaller room (with lots of bleed into other areas), and the M60s were recommended for me. Besides - this way you won't have the old upgrade-itise.

In any event - get the big ones - decide where to put em later.

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