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#48435 - 06/07/04 02:44 PM Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
jeffbridges Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 25
I didn't have the ballz to make my first post "M22 or M60's," :-), so I will ask it a different way! I am 60/40 HT / Music, and am trying to not have to compromise on one vs the other.

The biggest challenge I have is, not so much a weird room size, per say, but how we have it set up with furniture. I sit in a chair that happens to be directly in front of the right main. (8 ft away though) Additionally, there are large "holes" in the walls to go to other rooms, one of which must be 8X12. Also, there seems to be a friggin window everywere I wanna put a speaker, so... I guessed that pictures would speak louder than words so there is a drawing in the next post down - THANKS AJAX!

Specific areas I'd like your input. 1) Considering my mains will be 16 ft apart, yet only 8-10 feet away from the primary seating area; is that enough room for the M60's to "breath". With a little toe in, can I expect a seamless soundstage, or would I be better off with the 22's. 2) What do you guys think about my options, short term and long term for the surrounds? (Don't expect you will have much of an opinion without looking at the pic at the above url. If you do, you will see my dilemna) 3) lastly, the right main, if I go with the M60's would be closer to the wall that probably considered ideal (less than 10 inches.) I would like the front of the speaker to be no more than 34" from the wall (ever present WAF,)and since the M60s are SO deep (25")I might have an issue. M22's would work much better as I would have a bunch more room to play with, but again may not satisfy my craving for a more seamless mid bass experience.

I love bass, I like the rattle your foundation 20Hz stuff, but just as much like the PUNCH kind of bass with rock and roll. What I dont like is that sloppy bluh blu bluh kinda of muddy crap I hear, more often than not. I plan to add a HSU vtf3 sub, but wonder if it will blend well enough with the M22's (thus me already "almost" deciding on the M60s, (except for the space from wall limitation I have)) My neighbor has Silverlines (high end monitors) and a high end sub, but there seems to be something missing in the middle (even though he thinks it sounds great.) I suspect I am talking about the 60 - 100 Hz range. Highs are crystal clear, and bass will thump, something just sounds a little "off."

I would love to be able to save $400 bucks and get the M22's, even if only for the short term, then "demote" them to rears later and add the M60's as mains but after speaking to Jean-Frank at axiom, he dismissed that idea and suggested the QS surrounds. I tend to think he is right considering how close the rears will be to our ears. I likely would benefit from the wider spread of sound from the QS8s.
(again see the diagram and you will see what I mean)
I dont expect a perfect answer, and I know the best way to be able to tell is to buy both and return, but I am a tightass, and I am starting out from scratch. Oh yea, I am going to get the 3805 with plans to add a 2-channle amp later if I dont get enough OOPMF to satisfy me initially.

Guys - thanks for your advice, I am looking forward to it, and thanks Axiom, for a place like this to freely discuss the best options. Jeff Bridges


Edited by jeffbridges (06/07/04 03:01 PM)

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#48436 - 06/07/04 02:47 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Ta Da! Nice drawing, by the way.


_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#48437 - 06/07/04 02:59 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
Capn_Pickard Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 1056
Loc: Arlington, VA (NOVA)
Have you thought about changing everything up, or are you stuck with where your tv is?

Because, if you were to move teh TV onto the right wall, the front woudl be more symetrical. You could place the couch about five feet from the right wall (leaving space to walk behind it). This right wall woudl then be a perfect place to put your 7.1 in the future. Then, above where the TV curently is, you could put one surround and on the wall, in between the two hallways, you could put the other one.

That would give you a frnot spread of about 14 feet, and a viewing distance of about 15 feet (nearly perfect).

I guess the one drawback is that you'd be placing a TV in front of what is (I suspect) a very nice arched window (i.e. WAF = bad)

Anyway - you're definitely not up SH*t creek just yet. Your options are endless.

However, I'd get away from your current set-up if you can, just to align your viewing area with the TV, and have a more symetrical listening area.

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#48438 - 06/07/04 03:06 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
jeffbridges Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 25
Hey Capn - Yea, that arched window was about 3 grand and looks out over (what will soon be a rose garden,) so once again WAF rules... It One option I *might* have is to put the TV on the other side of the fireplace in the corner, but I dont think that would help me too much with what we are discussing here. So, with all that said, I am really trying to figure out how to make the best of this crap hand I have been dealt.

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#48439 - 06/07/04 03:11 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
Capn_Pickard Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 1056
Loc: Arlington, VA (NOVA)
How about moving the TV to the bottom left corner (where the sub is) and adjust accordingly? Maybe have the couch on the right wall (still five feet out or so - looking out the new window onto the roses) and place some of the other chairs around the top left of the room. Then, your couch will be perpendicular (sp?) to both the fireplace (focal point), TV (focal point) and looking right at the expensive windoe (focal point).

Again, you've got lots of options. Take a saturday, get some sweat pants on, invite a buddy over (entice him with beer, if necc.) and start moving stuff around and sitting to see how it feels. Get your wife involved - you never know what kind of input she may have that is more compromising than you first thought.

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#48440 - 06/07/04 03:33 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
First, lets get the obvious question out of the way. If the answer to this question is "NO," then I humbly apologize because you've been asked this question 800 million times and are sick of answering it. Are you THE Jeff Bridges?

OK. Definitely NOT and easy room. Lets get rid of a few misconceptions. First, according to Alan, our resident, Axiom employed, expert, the rear ported speakers can be as close to the back wall as 3 inches without causing any problems. Second, The M60s are 15 inches deep, not 25 inches. So, you could have the front edge of the 60s only 18 inches or so from wall.

Having the mains 16 feet apart, and sitting only 8 feet from then is NOT the ideal situation. However, because of room constraints, furniture placement, and the WAF, very few of us are able to achieve the ideal. Do the best you can, and don't worry about it. Any possibility of switching what is apparently a plant (just to the left of the fireplace), with the left main speaker? That would get the mains a few feet closer together an help the soundstage.

If you go with the QS series surrounds (and I agree with Jean-Frank that you should. They are fabulous surround speakers!), here's what the Axiom FAQ recommends:

"Ideally, surround speakers should be either wall-mounted or stand-mounted to either side of the couch or primary listening area, from one to six feet higher than seated listeners' ears, and slightly forward or rearwards of the listening area if you wish. Axiom's Quadpolar surrounds are especially versatile and can yield excellent performance with stand or wall-mounting to the rear as well as at side locations."

Let that be your guide as to placement.

In my opinion, you should go with the M60s. Here's my reasoning. That's a pretty good sized room (352 sq. ft.). I didn't notice ceiling height, but if it's only 8 ft, that's 2816 cubic ft. (and that's not taking into consideration the adjoining spaces). I feel the 60s would do a better job filling that space. Also, I had the 22s with a HSU STF-2, and felt a lacking in the upper bass/lower mid range with that combination. I replaced the 22s with 60s and I no longer felt that lacking. From what you had to say on that subject, I fear that the 22s with sub, "may not satisfy your craving for a more seamless mid bass experience." The 22s are fabulous speakers, and there are many 22 owners who have NOT had the same experience as I, so this is only my opinion. Were I able, I would have kept the 22s AND the 60s.

I think the VTF-3 would work well with either speaker, and provide you with tight, musical, yet substantial bass.

Keep us posted, and ask questions.

Just saw the ceiling height at 10 feet. So that means 3520 cubic feet.


Edited by Ajax (06/07/04 03:40 PM)
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#48441 - 06/07/04 03:47 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
i agree with ajax.. if you are over 3000 sq ft, the M60's would be the better choice. and you should have NO concerns with the VTF-3, that will have plenty of solid, stable, ample bass.

as you stated, your config is not the best in the world, but you can only make a hand with the cards you are given. at the very least, even with a 'not so great speaker placement', you will still have a delicious sounding system with the speakers you have mentioned. hooked up with that denon, and you will be living the high life.

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#48442 - 06/07/04 04:10 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
jeffbridges Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 25
You guys kick ass.. One point of clarification.. The main listening area has 20 ft ceilings, (maybe more) so I guess we are talking about 7,000 cubic feet. The 10 ft ceilings are the kitchen in the room behind the couch.. All the more supports the 60's, huh..

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#48443 - 06/07/04 04:13 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
jeffbridges Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 25
Ajax - I wish I was the "real" Jeff Bridges.. If I were, I would just hire you guys to come set it all up and have a big party!!!

Ajax said "Having the mains 16 feet apart, and sitting only 8 feet from then is NOT the ideal situation." Well, is there any validity to moving the right main on the other side of the TV? If we did this, then the right main would be on plane with my left ear... Doest sound good, but thought I'd ask.

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#48444 - 06/07/04 04:14 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
Capn_Pickard Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 1056
Loc: Arlington, VA (NOVA)
yeah - definitely go with the 60s. I bought a pair for a smaller room (with lots of bleed into other areas), and the M60s were recommended for me. Besides - this way you won't have the old upgrade-itise.

In any event - get the big ones - decide where to put em later.

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#48445 - 06/07/04 04:31 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Just my opinion, but I think it would be better to leave the right main where it is rather than move it. You'd end up with all the audio coming from the left of the TV which would be weird.

The problem with the mains being 16 feet apart, and you only 8 feet away from them, is that it may leave a hole in the center. Normally the center channel speaker can be used to fill in any such hole, but you've got a problem there as well. If you center the center channel speaker between the two mains, it will be to the left of the TV and dialog will sound like its coming from the left instead of from the TV. If you place the center on/below/or in front of the TV to get the dialog in the right place, you're back to potentially having a hole in the middle. However, adjusting the volume levels of the respective speakers, and properly setting their distances, in your receiver can help all of this. You'll just have to experiment.

I'll pass along Ray3's normal advice in a situation like this. "Sell the wife" and place things where they ought to go. (Please don't tell her I said that. Hell hath no fury......ya know! Actually I didn't say it. Ray3 did! )
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#48446 - 06/07/04 04:39 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Just remembered a fellow who had a situation similar to (but hardly the same as) yours. He was using the 22s, but this is how he solved his problem. Maybe it'll give you ideas. Maybe not.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#48447 - 06/07/04 04:54 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
jeffbridges Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 25
Sell the wife - ROTFLMAO... Yep - you are right - what in the hell were these house desingers thinking, I mean where were their priorities!!!! BTW - we just bought this house (15 yrs old) a few months ago, so just getting situated. Maybe we should have considered a different house. ;-)

One of the things I think may help me here is the 3505's auto tuning capabilitites. The way I understand it (and I could be being a bit optimistic here,) is that it will automatically adjust the timings so that each speaker's sound hits your ears or it's mic) at the same time. So the speaker that is 12 feet away will be slowed down relative to the other which may only be 6 or 8 away. Sure - it cant put sound where it doesn't exist, but certainly sounds like it can help for situations like mine.

Just think, if 10 years ago (im 32) you would have told me that my wife would even remotely get a say in where my speakers were to go, "BAHH!" Now I just say "yes dear." BUt im sure none of you audio studs hanging out here have ever said that.. lol

Guya - thanks for your advice - it is appreciated more than I could ever explain.. jb

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#48448 - 06/07/04 08:17 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
Ray3 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 2842
Loc: Rochester, NY
Hiya Jeff. First of all, the whole "sell the wife" thing is flawless, so don't dismiss it out of hand!!

With your room, ya gotta do the M60s. The separation is good and they will provide you with a "false front" effect to prevent holes in the front soundstage with your center. The QS8s are fabulous. Prepare to have your socks knocked off. If $$ are not an issue, take a look at the SVS 20-39 PC + or PC Ultra. BTW, the VTF-3 is a great sub.

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#48449 - 06/07/04 08:24 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
jeffbridges Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 25
Ajax - that is one sweet room.. My parents have a house in the mountains - sorted reminds me of.. Really sharp. I read you guys like pics, so I "snapped" yall a pano of my room. Not the best shot in the world, but will suffice. I won't post all 25 megapixels of it (6mp X 5 images minus some trimming), else you might be able to see what brand speakers are on the mantel. UGHH Yea - I'm a camera geek too! Later, and thanks again - Any more ideas, Im open to them.. Jeff _ i tried to cute with a hre but it was a bust.. Here is the direct link

http://photos.imageevent.com/br1dge/newhouse/large/Jeff%20HT%20-%20Living%20Room%20Pano_resize.jpg

It can look good, sound good, or your wife can like it. Pick any 2.

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#48450 - 06/07/04 11:09 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
Judging by that picture (very nice place, BTW) you ought to bring the left main in next to the TV. I would go 5.1 and put QS8s on stands either side of the main viewing area. When you get your surrounds too far away it just doesn't seem to envelop as much. Go big-ass sub (SVS PB2 or even dual SVS 20-39s) and consider M80s or M60s. My 2 cents (we oughta be gettin' paid for this ).

Oh yeah, get a big screen (HD CRT RPTVs 51" start from $1000). $3500 bucks and you'll have a smokin' system.

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#48451 - 06/07/04 11:17 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
i take it a new tv is out of the question?.... if you were to get a projector, plasma, you could easly fix all of your audio problems, by shifting the viewing area.....


just an idea, dont know if the wife will go for it, or if you even want to think about that, but that might honestly be the "easiest" solution... all be it, not the cheepest... but if you can swing it, you and your wife can both get what you want...

dont know if this helps... or just pointless, ramble, but it made me feel good!

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#48452 - 06/08/04 10:21 AM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
jeffbridges Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 25
BW and Dak - thanks for the advice.. A new TV is certainly on my list, but it will probably have to put in that existing Armoire in the picture. I have "decided" on the Sony 34XBR960.. Sweet tube tv, and fits that cabinet perfectly.. Does not help with positioning much, though, huh.

I am going to have to think on the suggestion of moving the Left main in closer to the tv (other side of fireplace.) If you look at the drawing in the top of this post, it may not seem as much of a good idea.... SO many factors to consider eh? Well, now that I know which product to buy, I can play around and find the best home for each without bugging you poor guys any more.. Thanks again for everything, Jeff


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#48453 - 06/08/04 10:30 AM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
You're welcome, Jeff. Don't be a stranger (well......any stranger than you are, anyway)
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#48454 - 06/08/04 02:24 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
njoyment Offline
buff

Registered: 04/15/04
Posts: 52
Loc: Gilbert, Arizona USA
Curious where you live Jeff. i know a Jeff Bridges and he is not THE Jeff Bridges either.

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#48455 - 06/08/04 03:43 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
jeffbridges Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 25
Just moved from Raleigh (Apex) NC, to Atlanta, GA.. Ring a bell?

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#48456 - 06/08/04 04:04 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
njoyment Offline
buff

Registered: 04/15/04
Posts: 52
Loc: Gilbert, Arizona USA
Different Jeff Bridges ...BTW I am using 60's,qs8's,vp150 and svs pb2plus (sub). I also have irregular shaped room with offset front speakers. With the adjustment capabilities of the Denon 3805 I compensated for things and it sounds great. You just have to play with it to get it to your liking.. Look into the SVS line for subs... American owned, made, and manufactured.. I love mine. Id offer you a demo but you can only feel the bass within two states and I live in Arizona.

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#48457 - 06/09/04 10:58 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
Michael_A Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/07/04
Posts: 418
Jeff,

One last suggestion. 2 nights, 2 bottles of wine, 2 of HER favorite movies. (Nudge her towards picking out 2 movies with something suitable for testing surround sound. Outdoors stuff like beaches, woods, maybe a festival or something.)

Setup the speakers where she likes them, calibrate them, and watch a movie. The next night, put them where these guys tell you to, calibrate them (of course, making sure to get it absolutely perfect this time), and watch the other movie.

She no doubt will hear the difference, and FORCE you to put them in the right place. I ruined my woman. She went to see Troy with one of her girlfriends, and then made me promise to let her invite her over to watch it on DVD when it comes out. She said the theater sound "just didn't cut it.". Your wife might not know it yet, but yes, even women appreciate great sound. She'll bend on the visual properties.
_________________________
M- M60s/VP150/QS8s/SVS PC-Ultra/HK630 Sit down. Shut up. Listen.

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#48458 - 06/09/04 11:44 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
MykeW Offline
local

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 289
Loc: Canada
Hey Jeff, I'm in complete agreement with dakkon. Seriously consider a projector. This would make your speaker placement close to perfect ( with a screen infront of the fireplace ). Both projector and screen can be easily made to disappear into a rooms surroundings more so than any alternative, and you can't get a bigger picture...

Look at the Infocus X1 or BenQ 6100, and particularily the Optoma H30, great low budject projects.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/recommended-home-theater-projectors.htm

Good Luck, Michael

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#48459 - 06/10/04 09:02 AM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
michael-

that was a good story about your 'woman'.(i dont know if that means girlfriend or wife).. anyway, i had the exact same experience with my wife. after watching a few good movies on the HT, we went to the theater and she was very disappointed. after we left, she said "unless you just want to see a movie on the big screen, i see no reason why we should ever come back here, our system sounds much better".. it was the first time she had referreed to the HT as 'our' and not 'yours'.. it just made my little heart go pitter-pat..

i am hoping to be able to use this angle for a new 42 inch HD flat screen next spring.

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#48460 - 06/10/04 09:03 AM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
It's in the bag, John.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#48461 - 06/10/04 10:10 AM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
ringmir Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/03/04
Posts: 619
Loc: boston
My girlfriend love the system and wants me to buy what she refers to as a "big-a$$ tv." She's a music and movie buff, and therefore welcomes any purchases I make in that direction. Then again, she's not a live-in and knows that I'm going to buy whatever I want regardless of her opinion, so she never really hassles me about any purchase I make.
_________________________
[black]-"The further we go and older we grow, the more we know, the less we show."[/black]

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#48462 - 06/10/04 12:30 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
Michael_A Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/07/04
Posts: 418
In reply to:

i dont know if that means girlfriend or wife




In this case, that means girfriend. We're both already married to our careers so spending quality time together is hard to do. Hers may be taking her far away soon. We'll have to figure out how to handle it from there. She's a great gal, though. One of the few career gals that I've met that likes the "traditional" roles - women/caretakers - men/providers. Of course, she's faking the non-provider part. Her salary is just slightly shy of mine. I have 45 folks working for me, she's only got 43. I get to tease her about me being the "big fish" in the house. I'm glad I'm not her competiton at work . She's ruthless in the business world.

She's definitely been bitten by the HT bug, though. She's threatened to get a bigger TV and M80s for her house if I didn't let her do the Troy thing here. I know when I've been beaten. Even the Duke had to walk away from a gunfight or two.

Too bad most of them don't take to things like 4 wheeling, shooting, golf, fishing, working on cars, and tailgating like they do to HT.

_________________________
M- M60s/VP150/QS8s/SVS PC-Ultra/HK630 Sit down. Shut up. Listen.

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#48463 - 06/10/04 12:46 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
well, my wife loves to go shooting/hunting, and we tail-gate all the time, but she aint to fond of none of that other stuff.

as a matter of fact.. when her friend graduated with her masters degree last summer, shannon took her out to the gun range with about 400 rounds of .38 and .45 caliber shells to "blow off some steam"!! now thats what i call celebrating!!

she loves to go camping also, but we have toned that down as of late due to her pregnancy.

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#48464 - 06/10/04 01:15 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
My wife and I used to go shooting out in the desert on a regular basis when we were dating. Drink a twelver and shoot up the cans from the tailgate. Nice, fun, cheap date.

Maybe I am a hillbilly!

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#48465 - 06/10/04 02:12 PM Re: Howdy Folks - Would like your input,
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16277
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
No way. Hillbillies don't have cute kids.

(apologies to any hillbillies present)
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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