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#53329 - 09/07/04 03:19 PM Re: Just because I'm a warmonger
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
I read Term Limits ... pretty good book. As for how to reduce the size of government... a lot of that gets to the "Civics Lesson" I mentioned yesterday... People really have no idea how much the government controls our lives...

If you get a check from the government, they own a part of you, and they know it. I wish I had the answer to getting people to truly understand how much better off we could be... but I don't.
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#53330 - 09/07/04 03:31 PM Re: re: Campaign reform
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
Giving a money to a campaign is "free speech"?

What do you consider "limits to free speech"? Are President Bush's "freedom zones" not limits to free speech? Are not allowing the press to show the flag drapped coffins returning from Iraq, not a limit to free speech?

It's not the ads that corrupt. It's where the money came from to pay for the ads. Do you not think that both the Dems and Reps have the Drug companies best interests in mind? What about the energy industry? You can't possibly think that there's no connection to the pro-energy policies of this current administration, and the amount of money and favors that it's received from them do you?

If those favors and money were eliminated, we'd get a more honest government. A government that did not bend over backward to big corporate money. This isn't a party issue, both sides are in so deep with corporate ties it's sick. No more flights on corporate jets, no more massive donations...end it.

527's...like the Swift boat people, and MoveOn.org, have every right to exist. That's free speech. But they too need to be closely watched. They need to receive money ONLY from personal donations. Corporations should not be able to support these groups. What donations they receive should be fully disclosed.

Are we a country of the people, or of the corporations? Corporations should stop receiving rights as though there were a person.

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#53331 - 09/07/04 03:44 PM Re: re: Campaign reform
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
Spiff, I understand why this is frustrating... But every law limiting campaigning is easy to get around. Outlaw corporations giving money ? Then the Board of the corporation will do it. Corporations are not people, true, but they are made up of people.

As far as limiting access to coffins... that is a practice dating back to WWII ... that is a reasonable limit, not politicizing death... For either side... The first amendment was primarily to deal in plotical speech, as the British government at the time would jail a person for disagreeing with the King.

And yes, giving money to the candidate of your choice is free speech....

Yes, I agree there is corruption, but outlawing the giving of money will ensure it is done in secret.... go with full disclosure and let the people KNOW what money was being given to whom, by whom...
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#53332 - 09/07/04 03:49 PM Re: re: Campaign reform
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
Why not audit their books? With all the corporate scandals of late, laws have been passed that require outside auditing. Why should campaigns not be audited? Eliminate the outside money, and insist on an audit of every penny that's spent. If they've spent more than they're budget, they've got some questions to answer.

Full disclosure is a good thing, but that won't stop the fact that these politicians will still be indebted to these huge donations.
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#53333 - 09/07/04 04:07 PM Re: re: Campaign reform
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
Spiff, All auditing would do is show who did the donating. The problem with auditing is time... by nature, auditing happens after the campaign is done. (Think income taxes) ... Full disclosure would do the same thing, and rather than have shadow groups, you have candidates or parties receiving the $$$$.

Of course, when this "pipe dream" gets passed... all you guys can abuse me... "That Friggin Craigsub, NOW we get to listen to candiate "A" tell us about Candidate "B" getting $4 million from the "Sheeplove Foundation" and "B" telling us how "A" got $4 million from the "Give each 5 year old an UZI" fund..." ...

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#53334 - 09/07/04 05:49 PM Re: Just because I'm a warmonger
TurboDog1 Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 342
Donald -

First of all, I can't believe you didn't get flamed harder about using the term "occupiers". Iraq is a functioning, independent, self-governed country. The interim government has FULL power to request that we leave. They have their own constitution (thanks Craig for the link).

That word seems to pop up a lot lately and it's discouraging. It seems like people forget that we do not invade countries like Germany did with intent on controlling or occupying. The blood of our soldiers paints the soil of other nations so that they can be free. Then, when we are done, we pack up our things, clean our wounds, and head home. Perhaps someone should go remind those ingrate Frogs of how many of our guys died so that they could eat their croissants and look down their nose at the Americans.

As far as the War For Oil argument, I really would like to have someone present a cogent argument in support of this position. It just doesn't make sense. We're not getting squat out of this. It's costing us a ton of money and I don't see free Iraqi oil pumping in here. If you want to slap an alternative theory onto why Bush took on this war, take a look at this article. Someone sent that to me one day. I'm not sure that I am fully on board with Buchanan on this, but it's a heck of a lot more plausible than the War For Oil position.

As far as term limits go, we should be looking at term limits for our Senators and Representatives instead of concerning ourselves with the president. The floors of Congress are where the real corruption lies. It's there that you have career politicians prostituting the country for their own gain. They serve their primary goal at all times.....to maintain their own power and position. Whatever good intentions they had going in fall by the wayside when they get a whiff of that corrupting scent of special interest.

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#53335 - 09/07/04 05:50 PM Re: Just because I'm a pacifist
Michael_A Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/07/04
Posts: 418
I was only playing with spiff on that one. My blaming of Senator Kerry was strictly tongue in cheek.

I also meant no disrespect when I addressed the President solely by his last name. I love the guy.
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#53336 - 09/07/04 06:00 PM Re: Just because I'm a pacifist
Michael_A Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/07/04
Posts: 418
Uhh...

The Supreme Court actually stepped in and PREVENTED the election from being stolen.

One of Mr. Gore's advisors, a Mr. Daley... from Chicago... remember him? He had a prior history of stealing elections. This attempt was simply another attempt that got thwarted...


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#53337 - 09/07/04 06:49 PM Re: Just because I'm a warmonger
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16267
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
In reply to:

perhaps we could stop terror by making all those caught listen to Mr. Buchanan 24/7 ...


Change that to Pat Robertson and you have yourself the definition of true torture.
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#53338 - 09/07/04 06:51 PM Re: Just because I'm a warmonger
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
Make it Pat Robertson and Hillary Clinton debating... Bi-partison Hell...
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