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#53809 - 10/11/04 03:48 PM Re: OT: Politics
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
I think Carter's presidency was catastrophic. Although I voted against Reagan, and thought his policy of increasing military spending to the point where the Soviet Union would break or go to war was reckless, his presidency will be remembered as a foreign policy triumph. He gambled and won! I think Bush I's presidency was forgettable, that Clinton gave us 8 great years and a couple of laughs (Monica was borderline, but had he done Linda Tripp I would have voted for impeachment and hanging for disgracing the First Penis); I think George II has been weak to poor on domestic policy, but towers over Kerry when it comes to foreign policy.

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#53810 - 10/11/04 04:03 PM Re: OT: Politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
That was a very refreshing post, pmbuko.

So it's official - you're voting for Bush now?

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#53811 - 10/11/04 09:11 PM Re: OT: Politics
Michael_A Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/07/04
Posts: 418
In reply to:

Have you heard about the error on the Michigan absentee ballot? Look at the way the arrows line (or don't line) up. This is not a joke.


Now that's hillarious. No need to worry about fixing it. The Republicans will be smart enough to know that you should just put the mark where the line should be.

It's all good...
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M- M60s/VP150/QS8s/SVS PC-Ultra/HK630 Sit down. Shut up. Listen.

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#53812 - 10/12/04 06:08 PM Re: OT: Politics
pmbuko Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16224
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Nope. Still not voting for Bush. Why? Because he's converted the US from Democracy to Psuedo-Fascism.

How can I say that? Well, how many of these 14 ways to identify fascism don't apply the USA, today?


Edited by pmbuko (10/12/04 06:36 PM)
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#53813 - 10/12/04 06:57 PM Re: OT: Politics
pmbuko Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16224
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Here's a slightly different 14 indicators of Fascism.

If you think fascism doesn't have a chance of taking root in our country, you are living in denial. Everybody needs to be worried, and vigilant.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53814 - 10/12/04 06:59 PM Re: OT: Politics
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Any reasonable analysis of those factors must lead to the conclusion that this country is not fascist nor is Bush or his followers fascist:

1. The first factor, "The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition" does not characterize our society. New age music, Art Bell, and discussions on the Sci Fi Channel of Stone Henge and Machu Pichu are not indicia of fascism. For a cult of tradition, go look at Osama bin Laden and the cult of IslamoFascists who want to restore the good old days of the Caliphates.

2. Neither the Republican Party, Bush nor the dominant ethos representing the broad part of the bell curve embrace a "traditionalism" which rejects "modernism." Our society is the embodiment of modernism. IslamoFascism, on the other hand, is the clear embodiment of the rejection of modernism, it is the center piece of their world view! No music, no science, burn the library of Alexandria because everything worth knowing is in the Q'ran!
In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. "For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason." Doesn't that characterize IslamoFascism where the penalty for conversion from Islam is death?

3. Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action's sake. This does not characterize US policy under Bush - Bush acted as a reaction to an attack on the US by non-governmental, but cultural forces. Action for action's sake is strapping explosives under your children's clothing and sending them off to blow up Jews in a pizza parlor, or attacking the symbols of US culture, the twin towers, Pentagon ... and murdering thousands of human beings, for what?!? For action's sake!

4. The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. Our culture distinguishes everything! We debate morality, ethics, politics, science, art ... IslamoFascists hang 16 year old girls for demonstrating a "sharp tongue."

5. "Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity. Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition." You live in a pluralistic democratic society here in the US. Ask the blacks of Darfur, or the Coptic Christians of Egypt, or the Assyrian Christians of Iraq, which society is racist. Where are the venerable Jewish communities of Baghdad, Damascus, Alexandria? Jews lived there for 2500 years, and now Islamic nations are Judenrein, free of Jews. PMB, really, you have a nerve to suggest that our society is fascist and intolerant.

6. "Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups." PMB, we enjoy a vibrant and secure middle class, one which characterizes the broadest part of our society.

7. "To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country. This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia. But the plot must also come from the inside: Jews are usually the best target because they have the advantage of being at the same time inside and outside."

Doesn't this factor characterize normative beliefs of every Arab country? You can't seriously suggest this factor applies to the USA.

8. "The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance."

Again, this sense of envy, jealousy, paranoia, an irrational conspiratorial "understanding" of the real world order characterizes IslamoFascism, not any part of mainstream USA.

9. "For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle."

The dominant values of our nation endorse a love of life, music, home, family, cars, audio equipment, good food ... this is a love of life. If you want to consider the obvious obverse, think of the homicide bomber and the culture which names streets after mass murderers.

10. " Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak."

King Fahd, King Hussein, King Hassan, Strong Man Hosni Mubarek, Tyrant Saddam Hussein, Ba'athist Fuehrer Bashar al-Assad. Bush was elected, we have elections here PMB. You must have missed the memo.

I'm not going to analyse the rest of the factors because I'm out of time, but PMB, you really hate the US don't you?




Edited by 2x6spds (10/12/04 07:06 PM)
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#53815 - 10/13/04 12:38 AM Re: OT: Politics
pmbuko Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16224
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
If by reasonable, you mean biased, then of course you can't see any fascist tendencies. You've got Islamo-fascists on the brain, and you cannot see anything excpet in comparison to it. You need to disconnect that part of your brain in order to critique the problems in your own country. Of course we're not as bad as the Middle East by any measure. That's not what this post concerns. Turn down your cultural contrast dial and you might see the fascist tendencies more clearly.

1. Tradition: Are you saying the religious right doesn't want to return the country to traditional values -- like America had in the 1950s? The religious right has a lot of pull with the current administration.

2. Rejection of Modernism: This administration has a bad relationship with science.

3. Action for action's sake: Too much thinking is a sign of weakness, in other words. Kerry is weak. Bush is strong for invading Iraq without a solid plan.

4. Making distinctions: You seem to have trouble making distinctions between Islamo-Fascists and other Muslims. "You're either with us, or you're against us." Labels aplenty. Black and white.

5. Diversity is bad: see the above quote. There is little room for difference of opinion in this administration. People who don't toe the line are fired.

6. Individual or social frustration: This administration fanned the flames of fear to gain support for its agenda.

7. Nationalism: Before 9/11, patriotism was not something many people felt to their cores. Now, patriotism is discussed, and questioned every day. People who question the administration's decisions are said to be aiding the enemy (plot from the inside), or even committing treason. And don't tell me xenophopia hasn't become a problem.

8. humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies: We are told that the enemy can hit at any time. Anywhere. But we are stronger and will hunt them all down, one by one. "Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak."

9. Life is lived for stuggle: It's hard work. It's hard work. "Life is permanent warfare." The dominant values of our nation/gov't also include: apathy towards the global consequences of our choices, our way or the highway.

10. Elitism: You are a perfect example of this. You refuse to even entertain the thought that your own culture is flawed, instead pointing out the flaws of others. Most of America does the same, I'm afraid.

11. Heroism: this point doesn't really apply as none of our military is eager to die.

12. The Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters: homophobia

13. selective populism: There is a distinct lack of equality of representation in the gov't, influenced heavily by economic background.

14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak: "Leave No Child Behind", "Healthy Forest Initiative"


And no, I don't hate the US. By saying so, you're exhibiting fascist tendencies.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53816 - 10/13/04 02:28 AM Re: OT: Politics
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Traditional values of the 1950s may be found in the media of the time, but your generation was conceived in the back seats of 1950'a Chevys, Fords, Hudsons, Packards, and for the lucky few, Nashes and Ramblers. Certainly, those were golden years economically, where in most cases a single bread winner could provide for their family, homes and cars were much more affordable - school shootings were pretty much unheard of, classrooms were orderly, children were respectful to adults ... I think those were more innocent times, in that we had not yet gone through the Vietnam experience nor had our faith in the truthfulness of our military and government yet been profoundly shaken. We struggled for civil rights and feared Joe McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover. Things aren't black and white PMB, at least not here, in our dynamic, evolving society. You appear to take our lack of perfection as proof of our depravity. A pluralistic society tolerates the Christian right. You seem to think that the right and democracy are incompatible. Very strange, very intolerant.

If you think the US is fascistic, permit the respectful suggestion that you have no idea as to what fascism or totalitarianism mean. It's one thing to criticize our society, it's another to deprecate it. One is constructive, the other a wrecking.

Whether or not this administration has cut some funding from scientific research is irrelevant to the contention that it is "anti-modern." I certainly hope that we fix the Hubble and am in favor of much broader guidelines for stem cell research. The fact that the Bush administration may under fund some of my favorite projects does not make it "anti-modern," or "anti-science."

I think Kerry is effete with an undisclosed agenda which is not in the US's best interests. That does not equate to endorsement of action for action's sake.

I don't have any trouble distinguishing between Islamo-Fascists and other Muslims. I think we can say Islam has reached a higher level of culture and civilization when it can make the distinction, rejects Islamo-Fascism and fights against it. Until that day, the distinction is indistinct.

Yes, 9/11 changed our national perception of our place in the world and how we are seen by Islamo-Fascists and their toadies, like the French.

I won't deal with the rest of your points individually because it's my bed time. I will say that you might want to examine your own values, how honest you are in reconciling the troubling facts of the religious war being waged against the West, and your tolerance of the cultures which spawn, encourage, finance, and celebrate the successes of those who are fighting against us - those who murder us without distinction or pity or care. Those are the folks who are in a state of permanent war ... it just took a while for them to get here and get at us. If we react, you accuse us of encouraging a state of permanent war? Strange. Perhaps a bit more tolerance of our own society and a bit less of those who are fascists and murderers and who make war on us would make a bit more sense.

Anyway, g'night all.




Edited by 2x6spds (10/13/04 02:34 AM)
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#53817 - 10/13/04 05:03 AM Re: OT: Politics
pmbuko Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16224
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
In reply to:

If we react, you accuse us of encouraging a state of permanent war? Strange. Perhaps a bit more tolerance of our own society and a bit less of those who are fascists and murderers and who make war on us would make a bit more sense.


And how is a "war on terror" anything but a permanent state of war? When/if we're done in Iraq, we'll have to go somewhere else next. Iran? Syria? You can no better win a "war on terror" than a "war on drugs."

Also, criticism of one's own society does not equate to tolerance of murderers. Again, my intent in the fascist -- I should say pseudo-fascist since we are not yet that far along -- posts was to hold a mirror up to our own society and view it independently of others. The inability to view something in a critical light is called Vanity.

I realize I'm being harsh in my analysis, but quite frankly, I don't have enough time or space to do a thorough analysis of the bad AND the good. I'm trying to be concise -- and argumentative.
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#53818 - 10/13/04 08:08 AM Re: OT: Politics
TurboDog1 Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 342
PM - First of all, I'm not sure I'd equate the War on Terror w/ the Ware on Drugs. Kerry stepped into that pile this week by making comments about getting back to a time when terrorism was a "nuisance" issue like the War on Drugs and Prostitution....a time (pre-9/11) when this issue didn't consume our lives. I'm sure the families of those sailors on the Kohl and those marines killed in the embassy bombings loved hearing that Kerry viewed terrorism in those days as a "nuissance". Perhaps if Clinton hadn't viewed terrorism as a simple nuissance and did something significant about it, we might not be as far down this road as we are. Back to my original point....Drugs and terrorism are not the same animal, because one is something that we have decided to fight, but don't have to....the other is something that we must address/fight and cannot turn a blind eye to. Simply burrying our heads back in the sand is not going to stop this one.

As far as you arguments about the US going down the road to facism, I have to agree w/ 2X6 in that it appears that you are stretching things a bit to paint this picture. Yes, there are things wrong w/ both society and this administration, but drawing parallels with facist states is a bit extreme.

Within your arguments, you make the point that the administration continues to "fan the flames" of fear and push it's agenda of war. Statements like these are exactly why we will never see eye to eye w/ liberals on these issues. What exactly is it going to take for you guys to recognize that we are truly at war. The devistation of 9/11 doesn't seem to have stayed fresh in your minds. Is it going to take a nuclear blast in one of our cities...the vaporizing of millions of our citizens...to make you guys realize that the war is on and there's nothing we can do to talk our way out of it. Our citizens should be scared....very scared. I listen to Kerry speak and I am scared.....scared because he doesn't get it either. Perhaps the war on terrorism isn't winnable in the traditional sense, but I sleep better knowing that our soldiers or CIA agents are doing whatever they can to put bullets in the heads of all those out there dreaming up these atrocities to be unleashed on the US people. I sleep better knowing that we have a President right now that gets this and will not abandon us because the political winds don't happen to be waving in support of his actions. I sleep well right now with a President that is as pissed off as I am about these parasites out there trying to end my child's life because she lives in a country that doesn't want to oppress her and perhaps stone her for talking back to her husband.

I really want to understand what's inside your head on this issue. I truly want to understand what level of disaster it will take for you to truly appreciate the war that we are in. I want to understand exactly how hard we have to be hit for you to finally say it's time to go out and kick everyone's a$$ that's involved in this....no matter how they are involved. Many of us are already there after 9/11. I'm curious what it's going to take for you to get there.

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