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#54089 - 11/07/04 02:10 AM Re: OT: politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.
-- James Madison, 1785 (context)
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#54090 - 11/07/04 03:57 AM Re: OT: politics
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
Did I miss something? Where's the hatred?


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"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

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#54091 - 11/07/04 08:58 AM Re: OT: politics
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
Spiff, PM is dripping hatred... and has no interest in anything someone from the conservative side has to say. Look at the absolute NASTY post/quote "from another forum". PM - You might try being civil, I consider you an American as rights, not a "Blue" a$$hole that needs publicly assaulted.

Rather than actually think for a minute about the ideas I suggested, they are summarily dismissed as impossible (not to be mean to you, but the Gay marriage bans passed in 100% of the "blue" states, so THAT idea is not working) ...

Until Americans start working towards freedoms for everyone, not much will happen.

And Spiff, If the Gay community WERE to come out for the things I proposed (they were not my ideas, by the way, people as far left as Jerry Brown and as far right as Pat Buchanan have suggested these ideas) , you would see a LANDSIDE of those agreeing with you. Ironically, where you would see the most resistance is from the left, though with the support of the gay community, it would have a groundswell.

I picture an America where people actually DO mind his/her own business, where people ARE given economic freedoms in a MACRO way, not by another piecemeal law, and where the government is LESS involved in our lives.

I have already petitioned Pres. Bush to look hard at these items, and believe me, let 40 million democrats start screaming (nicely) the same thing... "Scrap the IRS and income tax, give us a National Salest Tax instead, let ME control my OWN Social Security moneys, and eliminate the estate tax" ... and WATCH how fast it passes.

This would be good for Spiff, PM, Jack, Craig... EVERYONE.

Peace -

C
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#54092 - 11/07/04 11:48 AM Re: OT: politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
craig,

There was no hatred in my post from another forum. Perhaps I should have included the context, in which a red-stater accused a blue-stater of trying to impose his will upon other people. Whatever hatred you see is in your own eye.

As for me having no interest in hearing what conservatives have to say (read: you), that's simply untrue. While I honestly can't say I missed your presence in this thread -- I did miss it in the other threads -- that has nothing to do with the content of your message, but everything to do with its delivery. I'm probably guilty of the same.

And did I say anything at all about the validity of your suggestions re marriage? No. Does that mean I dismissed them? No. They are great ideas, but so is shrinking governement and removing and and all corporate control of it. Do I think that's going to happen any time soon? I don't think so. There's a big difference between what's possible and what's right. The way the system is set up right now, the most practical way of ensuring people's rights is by guaranteeing them through amendments. That's how our country works. I don't see it changing anytime soon.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#54093 - 11/07/04 01:17 PM Re: OT: politics
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
PM - I will accept your explanation that what you posted was a response to another post ... Though how I was supposed to know that is a challenge...

As for what is possible... at one time, the mere thought of America was impossible. Some exceptional men made it a possible thing. The only thing preventing us from becoming more free again is ourselves.

Everytime anyone, whether "conservative" or "liberal" rejoices in someone else losing a "right", WE allow the government to control us more ...

Regardless of one's political point of view, we have even seen the roll back of SOME government control in the last ten years. In 1998, It was passed by a Republican congress and signed by a Democratic president that the burden of proof in Tax cases would be on the government, not the citizen. One of our basic freedoms is "innocent until proven guilty", yet, from 1950 until 1998, when it came to the IRS, you were "guilty until proven innocent".

That was a major first step towards getting this freedom, and people laughed when it was first proposed, in 1995, that we eliminate that concept... "guilty until proven innocent".

For some interesting reading, go to Fairtax.org ... It is an already existing group which seeks the precise smaller government we all desire. It also explains in detail how the low wage earners are protected by this proposal... there are no taxes paid under this concept by people up to the poverty level.

And when a drug dealer buys a $1,000,000 boat, HE pays $230,000 in taxes....

It would be fun to have a few beers and talk about ALL the benefits of this...


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#54094 - 11/07/04 01:48 PM Re: OT: politics
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
On the surface I like the idea of a national sales tax, yet I don't know enough about the concept to back it yet. Tell me more.

How do low income family become exempt? What kind of rate are we talking? 23%, flat across the board for everyone and everything?


_________________________
"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

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#54095 - 11/07/04 02:15 PM Re: OT: politics
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
Take a family of four making $35,000 per year. They would get a $3600 "prebate" from the federal government, plus they pay no FICA or Income Taxes. Under the current system, they pay a total of $8500 including income taxes and Total FICA... (this includes the employer's share - the hidden tax people don't see.) ...

This means, under the current system, they have a net of $26,500 to spend on the family. To keep this simple, I won't put State and local taxes into the equation.

Under the National Sales Tax system, let's say they spend the entire $26,500 ... They would have a tax bill of $6095 ... or they would spend $32,595. When you add the household $3600 "prebate", they made a total of $38,600. This family would have ($38,600 - $32,595) $6005 MORE in REAL NET income.

NOW ... Take a "superrich" individual who sold his DotCom biz in 2000 for $100 million, and has $50 million in Tax Free muni-bonds paying 7% (WE cannot get this yield, but Mark Cuban can, bless his heart) ... Today, that person pays NOTHING in taxes on $3.5 million in income. NOW... if he spends $3,000,000 on yachts and Ferraris, he pays $690,000 in taxes...

Yes, It is a Flat 23% rate, with each household receiving a $3600 "prebate" ... and there is already a bill pending in Congress.
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#54096 - 11/07/04 03:04 PM Re: OT: politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
We can only hope that the super-rich, corporate CEO club doesn't lobby against it. Oh please oh please oh please.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#54097 - 11/07/04 03:16 PM Re: OT: politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
I thought the Nat'l Sales Tax looked like a bad deal, but I dunno now - it can't be any worse than the current system.

Something to consider: sales taxes generally hurt economic activity. With a tax of 23% on purchases, I may be more disinclined to buy stuff. Economic activity/growth is what drives our prosperity and fills the gov'ts coffers. If people stop buying stuff the economy will contract.

Back to gay marriage and how the Democrats can appeal to AMERICAN voters again?

"Whether or not it's the best solution or not, the only feasible way for gay and lesbian couples to have the same rights as straight couples is to allow us to marry."

If a compromise such as civil unions is not acceptable to you, spiff, I think your cause is doomed. If I remember right even the voters here in California are overwhelmingly opposed to gay marriages. Further, in Europe, where the citizens are apparently all enlightened and brilliant intellectuals , a couple countries allow only civil unions, right? If it ain't flying over there, how do you expect middle America to buy into it? Such social changes tend to take place over generations, not overnight through judicial rulings.

And just a reminder: "separate, but equal, is inherently unequal", and, "the separation of church and state", both come from Supreme Court rulings and are not phrases in the Constitution. With a different Supreme Court both of these principles could disappear.

BTW, I'm sure James Madison and the rest of the Founding Fathers would not be supporters of today's ACLU.


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#54098 - 11/07/04 03:19 PM Re: OT: politics
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
Actually, The Corporate world would LOVE this... the Idle rich may not, but show business how to reduce expenses, and most will be for it. But even the ones who don't support it won't defeat a groundswell of everyday people...

FairTax.Org has a GREAT slogan ... "Let's make April 15th just another day" ... and their TOP donor category is $125...
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