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#53989 - 10/29/04 05:14 PM Re: OT: politics
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
In reply to:

you're both hopelessly wrong



i know you are, but what am i?

politics aint fun. it is obvious that we just have core differences in how we think. what us right to you, is wrong to me, and vice versa.. it dont make either of us right or wrong, just different. regardless, i bet we could still sit down to some good music, drink a cold beer, and have a great time. you seem to get too rapped up in this bigwill.

i'm cool with ya man.. but it just makes no sense to call a man "hopelessly wrong", when your ideals and beliefs are a 180 degree opposite of the man you chastise. its like an apple, criticising a lemon for not being sweet enough.. thats just the way the lemon is. and if the lemon said the apple wasnt sour enough, would it make him right? nope. they are just two completely different fruits.

apples and lemons? next lesson is on the birds and the bees. dont miss it!!!

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#53990 - 10/29/04 05:54 PM Re: OT: politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
When an apple and a lemon get together, are you left with lemples or appmons?
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53991 - 10/30/04 01:09 AM Re: OT: politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
"Sure the Democrats are using the war as a political tool, but if you're sickened at them you should be far more sickened at the extent to which the Republicans are using the war as a political tool."

If Bush had re-election at the forefront of his mind, the Iraq war would never have happened. He could have guaranteed himself 4 more years by coasting in on the laurels of his 9-11 performance and the triumph in Afghanistan. In politics it is abundantly clear that doing what you think is right is much more difficult than doing what is in your own selfish interest.

This election should have been decided after the first debate - when Kerry trotted out his anti-war, anti-Bush, anti-US, "but I'll hunt the terrorists and wage the Iraq war even better" diatribe. Still an inside joke apparently.

We've sunk so low that siding with the enemy, thereby jeopardizing the lives of our troops, is "fair game". If it furthers your political agenda then it's a-ok. "Some of these Supreme Court Justices are going to be dropping dead, so do what you gotta do boys", eh?

I don't blame Kerry and his advisors so much as I blame the media and the dopey public. Kerry's attacks in the first debate should have been political suicide, but the media called it a brilliant performance, inexplicably the people were not offended, and here we are.

We aren't disagreeing about play calling in a football game, bigjohn. We're disagreeing about what it means to be an American.

Kerry, in his little tough guy speech today in front of his airplane, said, "...AS AN AMERICAN (I want to hunt down Osama and the other terrorists and kill them)." Tell me - what perspectives, other than that of "as an American", do we want our President to have? He might as well have said, "As an American, I want to kill our enemies... but as a pansy-ass liberal pussy I really want to indulge in some national self-loathing, question what we have done in the past to bring this on ourselves, seek sympathy from the rest of the effete Western world, apologize for our crass and uncultured anti-intellectual populace, and - above all - calculate how this can be used to further my do-nothing political career."

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#53992 - 10/30/04 03:53 AM Re: OT: politics
AdamP88 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 639
Loc: Omaha, NE
In reply to:

Kerry, in his little tough guy speech today in front of his airplane, said, "...AS AN AMERICAN (I want to hunt down Osama and the other terrorists and kill them)." Tell me - what perspectives, other than that of "as an American", do we want our President to have?




How bout "and as a citizen of the world?"

In reply to:

pansy-ass liberal pussy




Nice of you to raise the level of discourse, BigWill. Leave that kind of sophomoric crap out of here.

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#53993 - 10/30/04 09:04 AM Re: OT: politics
jorge016 Offline
local

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 247
Loc: Minnesota
Nice post Big Will-pretty much covers every stereotype that the GOP embodies. This election should have been decided fairly in Florida in 2000-then we wouldn't have had to read a diatribe like yours.
_________________________
M22's, VP150, QS4's, HK 630, HSU VTF3-MKII

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#53994 - 10/31/04 02:12 AM Re: OT: politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Yikes, BigWill! Have you been hanging around Ann Coulter lately? Or maybe Carl Rove?

In reply to:

We're disagreeing about what it means to be an American.


Thank goodness nobody holds a patent on that label, or else a lot of us would be in trouble.

Listen.

I am an American. John Kerry is an American. George W. Bush is an American. Michael Moore is an American. Eugene V. Debs was an American. Joseph McCarthy was an American. Richard Nixon was an American. Timothy McVeigh was an American. Ted Kaczynski is an American.

My family is American and your family is American, but our histories and experiences are different. Do you believe it within your power or right to claim that your are MORE American than someone else?

There is no single definition for what it means to be an American. We are a country of individuals, each with our own views of the country and the world, and our place in them.

Each time you resort to the anti-US or un-American label, you harm your argument's credibility. John Walker Lindh is about the only person who deserves that label.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53995 - 10/31/04 03:51 PM Re: OT: politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
You're projecting, pmb. I never said I was more American than any of you guys. I was simply stating that for a politician to undermine the war effort of his own country - for his own selfish political gain (and not because he is ideologically opposed to the war) - is unAmerican. Period. The voters accepting such behavior is more a reflection of media manipulation and psuedo-intellectualism than it is an indication of love of country.

Kerry says he will continue the war, but calls it a mistake. He says he supports the troops, but he blasts the Commander-in-Chief, the generals, etc... for every gaffe in the war - real or imagined. He said yesterday that if he had been President, he may have invaded Iraq, too. Yes, no, maybe, maybe not, depends, wtf?!

The dude is all over the map on every issue except "tax the rich", but with the lives of our troops, the lives of the Iraqi citizenry, the security of our country, and the credibility of our national resolve all at stake, this is one "issue" that he needed to be clear on.

Why are all the anti-war people voting for Kerry? Hasn't he publicly stated that he will continue the war in Iraq, and perhaps even expand the number of troops we have on the ground there? Why support one pro-war candidate over another? Wouldn't you rather have the guy who believes the cause is just in charge - rather than the guys who uses the war to inflame the anti-war voters, uses the war for loitical posturing, undermines our leaders and troops, encourages the enemy, but nominally supports the war? The war is a done deal - why change the current Pres, nat'l security advisor, secretaries of defense, state and homeland security, in favor of a DIFFERENT group of pro-war leaders?

BTW, if you like gambling (apparently you guys do ) sportsbook.com has Kerry the underdog at 6-5 and Bush favored at 5-7. Hope they're right.

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#53996 - 10/31/04 04:35 PM Re: OT: politics
Zarak Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 1849
Loc: PA
Bush has no exit strategy for this war and the feeling here is he is more likely to go after another country when and if this ever ends. Kerry wants to get help from other countries and is the more likely canidate of the two to try to plan on a way to come to an ending over there and get out.

I know this has been explained here before, but the people on the Bush side of things seem to ignore it and spout the rehtoric from their side instead.

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#53997 - 10/31/04 09:27 PM Re: OT: politics
AdamP88 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 639
Loc: Omaha, NE
In reply to:

Why are all the anti-war people voting for Kerry? Hasn't he publicly stated that he will continue the war in Iraq, and perhaps even expand the number of troops we have on the ground there?




Kerry has no choice but to continue the war. To pull out now would prove disastrous in Iraq. Bush got us into this mess, but quite frankly I don't trust him to get us out of it. And frankly putting more troops on the ground makes sense in speeding up the process of training Iraqis and hastening our exit.

In reply to:

Why support one pro-war candidate over another? Wouldn't you rather have the guy who believes the cause is just in charge - rather than the guys who uses the war to inflame the anti-war voters, uses the war for loitical posturing, undermines our leaders and troops, encourages the enemy, but nominally supports the war? The war is a done deal - why change the current Pres, nat'l security advisor, secretaries of defense, state and homeland security, in favor of a DIFFERENT group of pro-war leaders?




Why change? Because, for one, we believe the current president and his administration have made a lot of very big mistakes in dealing with this war, and in turn have refused to acknowledge those mistakes or opposing opinions, even when coming from highly knowledgable people. The war on terror is legitimate. The war in Iraq was not, in the eyes of many Americans, the next logical step in the war on terror. The administration used bad information to send our men and women to die and that war has cost us $200 BILLION.

Not only is it clear that the administration vastly underestimated the costs of this war, they also vastly underestimated just how hard this war would be to win. Beforehand they were predicting a 60 day war. Well over a year and a half later we're still there. Arguments from military brass that stated we needed more troops were largely ignored. Fairly extreme torture tactics (by Western standards) were approved by high-ranking officials for use on Iraqis, for little more than intimidation purposes. And to top it all off, Iraq has become a breeding ground for terrorists more than it ever was before. A seemingly forgotten aim of terrorism is to invite retribution, because it will rally the indigenous people to your cause. LOTS of scholars and military experts were speaking out on this well before the US went into Iraq.

I could go on - and that's only dealing with Iraq! Don't get me started on domestic issues... What it boils down to for me is this: this administration has been so pigheaded in it's stubborness, so unwilling to listen to opposing opinions, has made some very big mistakes, admitted so few of them, and been so disdainful of open communication with it's public (they're even deleting transcripts from the official White House website that contain quotes that aren't in line with their "vision") that I feel it absolutely necessary to change.

Is Kerry absolutely the best candidate for the job? No. But I have no doubt in my mind that he is better than Bush.

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#53998 - 11/01/04 01:59 AM Re: OT: politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
In reply to:

I was simply stating that for a politician to undermine the war effort of his own country - for his own selfish political gain (and not because he is ideologically opposed to the war) - is unAmerican. Period.


Since when are you the authority on what is American?

You want to talk about doing things for selfish political gain? Look at Bush/Roves smear tactics against McCain in the 2000 primaries. There is absolutely no contest here.

I just finished watching a Frontline episode that had been on my TiVo for a few weeks called "The Choice." It's an excellent and completely neutral documentary about both Bush and Kerry. It reinforced my choice for President, as I'm sure it would reinforce your choice, as well.

The reasons I am voting for Kerry mesh very well with the reasons I'm voting against Bush.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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