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#53959 - 10/22/04 12:00 PM Re: OT: Politics
jorge016 Offline
local

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 247
Loc: Minnesota
2X6-it's apparent you put no stock in the 9/11 Commission Report or the Deulfer Report. If you dismiss these reports as unviable it's easy to make a hypothetical link between Saddam and al Quaeda. Have you read either report-they are nonpartisan reports. Take a look.
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#53960 - 10/22/04 12:54 PM Re: OT: Politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
I think you're right about that. It's impossible to go back to those isolationist days.

So... You all know Kerry is a completely unworthy candidate, but you guys back him anyway because you think Bush and the Christian right will take us back to Medieval times. That's pretty wacko, but whatever.

jorge016, remembering back four years ago, I recall the race for President having much to do about "character". After the scandal of the Clinton Presidency (which should have been downplayed by both sides, IMO) voters wanted someone with "character". I think Al Gore is 10 times the man that Kerry is, but he was unfairly tainted by the fallout from Clinton and lost. I don't agree with his populist positions most of the time, but at least he stakes his ground and lets the voters know what they're voting for. OTOH, the desperate shenanigans Kerry and the DNC is pulling right now are harmful to the democratic process.

Bush has "character". He was governor of Texas. He developed a reputation for working well with both sides. He had some significant policy achievements in Texas. He surrounded himself with competent advisors and a strong VP candidate. IMO, he was well qualified and it has shown in the strength of his leadership. Even if you don't agree with what he's done, you have to admit he is strong.

BTW, 2x6's post above - that Arab culture won't sustain democracy - reminded me of more parallels with the Civil War. The Yanks did not think freeing blacks was worth spilling their own blood. They thought that if the blacks wanted freedom, then they should free themselves. They thought that the blacks were inferior.

But, if Bush is re-elected and democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan flourish and widespread long-term changes occur in the Middle East that improves the lives of the entire world - how will history view Bush? If we elect Kerry, and withdraw from the world, allow evil regimes to thrive, weapons to proliferate, corrupt int'l bodies to subjugate our nat'l interests and those of the masses in the 3rd World - how will history view US?

I had my doubts about democracy in the Muslim world until I saw the Afghans walking miles and braving violence (especially the women) in order to vote. Those people must think that voting is really, really important.

If that is universally true, then the threat to democracy in the Middle East doesn't lie in some inherent deficiency of the people, but in the viciousness of their tyrannical rulers. That, and the efforts of their religous leaders to control the people and resist modernity. While you guys want to wage war on our relatively benign Christian right, we would be better off tearing down Muslim fundamentalism.

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#53961 - 10/22/04 01:12 PM Re: OT: Politics
jorge016 Offline
local

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 247
Loc: Minnesota
Will I agree with you about Gore-he was tainted by Clinton but also proved unable to build on Clinton successes.

Bush's character (or peoples impressions of it) is a sticky issue. What did you think of his 2000 attacks on John McCain? That was a pretty despicable display of politics at their worst. He claims to have no direct tie with the Swift Boat Vets, yet he did nothing to stop them and they did Kerry a good deal of harm. Bush looks to me to be a lot like every other politico - get elected whatever the cost. With a man like Carl Rove in charge there's no limits.

Finally Bush and the Christian right do scare me. I grew up in a fundamental Christian home where the world is black and white. The older I get the less I agree with that. Regardless of popular belief Billy Graham and God didn't annoint Bush. He was elected with the help of the electoral college process.
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M22's, VP150, QS4's, HK 630, HSU VTF3-MKII

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#53962 - 10/22/04 01:43 PM Re: OT: Politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
The Deulfer Report said many things that supported the case for war. It also said that there was a 5% chance the WMDs were not destroyed, but disappeared, right? I haven't read the report, but I have read the exact text of the White House draft of the request for authorization of the war in Iraq. Nowhere does it say that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11.

http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/000554.php

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#53963 - 10/22/04 06:59 PM Re: OT: Politics
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
I never thought Saddam had anything to do with 9/11. I'm fine with the destruction of his Nazi totalitarian police state. I think you may have missed my points, Jorge.

The games Saddam Hussein played with the UN inspectors in conjunction with the FACT that his regime repeatedly used weapons of mass destruction on the battlefield and against civilians led to the evaluation of the risk that he had such weapons. The results of that analysis necessarily changed after 9/11. Hussein's Ba'athist Nazi regime could not be permitted to persist when the probability that he had such weapons was so high, and in light of the imminent failure of the sanctions regime. Hussein + enormous oil revenues + a history of development, possession and use of WMD resulted in the proper decision to remove his regime.

Europe has now made its peace with the remaining Ba'athist Nazi state, Syria, and have endorsed the development of WMD by Syria so long as Syria agrees not to proliferate. Europe's request is made within months of the use by Syria of WMD in Sudan. Except for England and Italy, our traditional NATO allies are no longer our allies. This is not a failure on Bush's part, it is a failure of policy and strategic decision making by the European community.
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#53964 - 10/22/04 09:36 PM Re: OT: Politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
2x6, is it possible that everybody knows what you're saying is true - but won't admit it in an election year? History is replete with examples of the good guys getting punished for sitting back and watching the bad guys get stronger.
How about the slave trade and 3/5ths compromises at the Constitutional Convention? If the founding fathers had had the foresight to tackle the issue early on, maybe we could have avoided the carnage of the Civil War.
If we can transform the Middle East now, what future, greater carnage might we avoid?

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#53965 - 10/22/04 10:26 PM Re: OT: Politics
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
BigWill, I may think the effort to establish a democratic state in Iraq is likely to fail, but it could happen, and you are correct, if the effort succeeded the benefits to the world could be enormous. Even though I'm a democrat, I'm rooting for Bush to succeed. We used to have a loyal opposition in this country. The relentless Republican attack on Clinton pretty much changed the landscape. I thought it was disgraceful. I think the same of the quality of the anti-Bush attacks.

Do you get the feeling that many anti-Bush folks are hoping his policies fail? That's partisanship raised above the best interests of the country.


Edited by 2x6spds (10/22/04 10:29 PM)
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#53966 - 10/23/04 01:30 AM Re: OT: Politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16274
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Here's some evidence to support the idea that democracy will not take hold:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52674-2004Oct21?language=printer

Remember that Abdel Aziz Hakim was once part of Da'wa, the organization the bombed the U.S. Embassy in Kuwait in '83. Hezbollah grew out of Da'wa.

Here's a quote from the guy:

"(The U.S. occupation) is primarily responsible for (the death of my brother) and the blood that is shed all over Iraq every day. Iraq must not remain occupied and the occupation must leave so that we can build Iraq as God wants us to do."

It seems like everybody knows what God wants these days.


Edited by pmbuko (10/23/04 01:37 AM)
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53967 - 10/23/04 10:32 AM Re: OT: Politics
Zarak Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 1849
Loc: PA
Is anyone else getting a TON of phone calls (mostly recordings) from different canidates trying to get elected? Apparently, the DO NOT CALL list does not apply to politicians. Perhaps they came up with the idea to put it together just so they'd have a list to make calls from. After yet another call this morning, I've come up with a new policy on who I am voting for in the lesser elections. Anyone that calls goes on a list in my no column, which means I am voting for their opponent. Is this the best way to choose a canidate, obviously not, but I've had enough. I never got this many calls from telemarketers. I've probably got at least another call or two coming today, not to mention the ones always waiting on the answering machine when I get home from work.

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#53968 - 10/23/04 12:27 PM Re: OT: Politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
zarak, congrats on living in a state that the candidates care about.
How about all the TV ads? Are they on all the time or what? I saw a 527 ad (on the news - nobody's wasting any money out here in California) for Bush that was pretty strong, IMO. The one with the little girl who lost her mom on 9/11 - seen that one?

2x6, what do you make of the election in Afghanistan? Different culture? Different circumstances - ie, not surrounded by Islamic states? It looks to me like that country is improving in leaps and bounds from the Taliban days.

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