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#58785 - 09/01/04 01:06 AM Re: SVS PCi 16-46 and the Axiom EP350-the thoughts
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16259
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
"My, what girth you have!" said the nervous listener.
"All the better to pound you with...er... to wow you with bass, uh, with!" replied the SVS.


Thanks for the review, Chess! Once again, we are shown that Axiom doesn't make a bad subwoofer, but the bang for the buck comes into question.
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#58786 - 09/01/04 03:34 AM Re: SVS PCi 16-46 and the Axiom EP350-the thoughts
TonyM Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 137
Hello Thasp,

Hope you are well. I think it had more to do with his room vibrations and squeeks dying down between notes. Sounds like you need a well dampened and nailed tight room to utilize that beasty. Friend of mine has two 16-46PC Plus in a home theater room with acoustic tiling and wall treatments, the whole nine yards. In that room they sound fantastic without vibrating the room structure, but they sure rumble your organs, eyeballs, popcorn, etc.... hehe. These are the 525 Watt versions with the aluminum Plus driver and different port design, and also incorporate a subsonic filter, which probably helps a lot with unwanted vibrations. I guess it is worth it to get the more expensive Plus model.

Looking at the frequency response graph the newer model has a ruler flat response from 16Hz to 100Hz, where the PCi model is tilted up in the lower frequencies and rolls off to around -5db down by 100Hz. Could make it boomy.

Later,

TonyM

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#58787 - 09/01/04 09:14 AM Re: SVS PCi 16-46 and the Axiom EP350-the thoughts
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
nice review chess, thanks.. i am pretty much sold on an SVS sub for my huge den(28x26). now its just a matter of saving up money, and finding a good deal on one.

i like the chess-thumping bass, so you have just flipped the switch, and heightened my anticipation a little more.. my wife thanks you!!

bigjohn
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#58788 - 09/01/04 10:32 AM Re: SVS PCi 16-46 and the Axiom EP350-the thoughts
ericb Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 123
Loc: Bedford, NH USA
Great review Chess. Many of the sub reviews I have read seem to lose sight of how a sub might be used as well as room considerations. Thanks for including that type of detail.

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#58789 - 09/01/04 10:57 AM Re: SVS PCi 16-46 and the Axiom EP350-the thoughts
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4788
Loc: western canada
Thasp, the lingering bass effect i am referring to was heard on songs like Hollly Cole's "I can see clearly now" which is one of our test recordings. There is a bass viol playing to start then Holly begins to sing. With the EP350, the viol note set 1st hits, ends, 2nd set hits and ends and Holly beings to sing. With the SVS, the viol note set hits and almost rolls into the second viol note set. The second viol note set hits and lingers into the start of Holly's voice. We are talking about a short time frame but the oxymoron of 'fast bass' is actually a reasonable description for the EP350 vs. the SVS. As i said in the review, for those who like a little more bass for their music, this won't be a bother.

Explanation?
Well of course room acoustics have to do with everything, but unlike the situation that TonyM describes, most people do not have acoustic panels and specifically designed rooms to control typical wall resonance that adds to things like bass. However, i am playing these 2 subs in the SAME room and SAME location so room effects are considered equalized in this situation. This means as we've made all other conditions as equal as possible, the observations being made are due to effects from the two different subwoofer brands and their build design.
The lingering bass of the SVS compared to the EP350 has to do with the length of the SVS tube. The notes linger because the tube is so much more long.
Let's take an extreme example.
If we had a 50 foot SVS tube in our listening room and compared it to the EP350, the EP350 would play a bass note, recover and then play another note. Depending on how fast the notes are being played determines how fast the driver should react. Now if the first note played is close to the second note, the relatively long wavelength of a low frequency sound wave travels a short distance in/around the smaller EP350 and then the second note begins. Now in the 50 foot SVS tube, that first note would play and the 50 foot tube would still be vibrating from note #1 (the subs are braced but far from perfect) and air would STILL be exiting the port of the tube 50 feet away long after the second note has been struck. Vibration from the long tube very much makes a difference in how 'much' bass sound comes from the SVS.
The long tube also greatly adds to the extension of the bass notes that the SVS is capable of hitting. Note how SVS makes their lower extension cylinder subs by making them taller in height (longer tube). Bass notes come from moving alot of air and you can do that primarily by using larger drivers, more powerful amps and bigger cabinets.
That is exactly what this SVS does and in comparison to the EP350, that greater air movement means alot more bass energy has to dissipate, hence the lingering bass notes.
Of course as i also mentioned in the review, you can compensate for this by turning down the gain on the SVS and therby creating less bass. However the issue i had then was at 30% or less on the gain, the movie bass was just not good enough for heavy explosions.
There are always trade offs to be made with any speaker design.
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#58790 - 09/01/04 11:45 AM Re: SVS PCi 16-46 and the Axiom EP350-the thoughts
curtis Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 1501
Loc: Manhattan Beach, CA
Chess,
What you just described with the 16-46 is the same that I experienced with the 20-39PC+ and PB1+...possibly to a lesser extent because the Plus subs have a nicer driver. Your example I think does a better job at describing what you heard. A friend of mine described it as "the attack transient and subsequent decay are not clean".

From what I have been able to read, the SVS Ultra subs are better at this.

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#58791 - 09/01/04 12:23 PM Re: SVS PCi 16-46 and the Axiom EP350-the thoughts
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4788
Loc: western canada
That's interesting Curtis.
I was wondering if the smaller subs such as the 20-39 or especially the 25-31 would reduce the effect. I would love to hear the Ultra series but with the EQ turned off for a more apples to apples comparison. The change in driver certainly could make a difference (aluminum vs. kevlar impregnated pulp otherwise referred to as darn strong paper).
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"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#58792 - 09/01/04 12:46 PM Re: SVS PCi 16-46 and the Axiom EP350-the thoughts
FordPrefect Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 1334
Loc: Ancaster, Ontario
Thanks for the fine review Chesseroo. Very well done and very unbiased.

If you remember, thanks to a post of yours, I ended up getting an EP350 (used) for $300 Canadian. I am still in the process of setting up my "enhanced tv" viewing room as relandscaping the back yard and rebuilding a 20 year old deck have taken over much of my life.

Sometime in the autumn I should be able to post some pictures of my modified 350 and it gets transformed into a Queen Anne 5 drawer cabinet, never mind why just accept the fact that it's going to happen .

Your post supported the view I already had of the 350, it's fine for a average sized room, and does very well by me. It's certainly more than worth the investment I have in it.

Again thanks ever so much for this comparison, it was worth waiting for.
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#58793 - 09/20/04 11:57 PM Re: SVS PCi 16-46 and the Axiom EP350-the thoughts
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
In reply to:

I would love to hear the Ultra series but with the EQ turned off




chesseroo, you can come down to Regina and try mine out anytime you like! I also don't use the EQ............ever!

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#58794 - 09/21/04 12:02 AM Re: SVS PCi 16-46 and the Axiom EP350-the thoughts
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4788
Loc: western canada
A tempting offer NH, but unfortunately i have only travelled to Sask. once in my lifetime, except for the return trip of course in which i had to pass through again.
Most often i just fly over it.
However, if i ever get the chance, i will be sure to drop you a PM before we travel.
If you do end up coming to the Peg, you are welcome to stop in and have a look see/llisten at our growing collection of audio pieces.

I hope you like big dogs.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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