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#61446 - 09/26/04 02:35 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
The guy comes looking for a recommendation on a new player and it turns into this. Oh well.

BrenR, there is no reason to defend Alan. (I spelled it right!) I was not attacking him in anyway shape or form. I'm just tired of seeing "Alan said" and people running with it like it's the gospel. He has stated several things that are based simply on his own opinions and nothing else. That is all I was trying to get across. Not that it matters but I have been reading S&V for just as long as you and I'm fully aware of who Alan is and what his past accomplishments are. The fact he chooses to promote the Axiom brand and Ian in general has no bearing on what I said.

As for the Burr Brown argument, call Guinness. I can hear the difference. Although I don't recall ever saying they are light years ahead of anything else?? I simply stated I prefer them. Apparently that is a no no in this place. State an opinion without a long winded scientific explanation as to why, shame on me!!! Who the hell do I think I am? Then when were done calling Guinness we need to call Denon, Parasound, Pioneer and a boat load of other manufactures and tell them the good folks in the Axiom forums have news they need to hear! They need to stop wasting there money on marketing the Burr Brown name in there equipment as it's a waste of money! Then we need to remind them to fire there engineers that spec Burr Brown because apparently they don't know squat either!


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#61447 - 09/26/04 02:45 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17781
Loc: NoVA
Whoa there, buddy, calm down.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#61448 - 09/26/04 02:56 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Slow down, why? I'm not picking on BrenR or anybody else for that matter but there seem to be more and more "We know more then you do" kind of posts around here lately and it's getting on my nerves.....sorry but I'm not the only one. I just seem to be the only one who will say it.

I think Burr Brown makes great DAC's. Not everyone agrees with that. That is fine to and it makes for good conversation.

If I did something wrong in my last post, I don't see it.

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#61449 - 09/26/04 03:00 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17781
Loc: NoVA
This happens quite frequently around here, someone will say something, other people say prove it, the first person says prove yours first, the other people say we have science on our side, the first person says I have my ears, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Normal conversation.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#61450 - 09/26/04 03:02 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Yes that I now know. We have the science crowd saying prove it and the other side (Like me) saying prove me wrong!

It's all fun but some need to relax a little....and I will include myself in that group!

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#61451 - 09/26/04 03:04 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17781
Loc: NoVA
That's all I was saying. I'm sorry I failed to say it to my own crowd.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#61452 - 09/26/04 03:20 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
In reply to:

we need to call Denon, Parasound, Pioneer and a boat load of other manufactures and tell them the good folks in the Axiom forums have news they need to hear!



Please... you dial and hand me the receiver... I'd relish an opportunity to point out the Emperor's winky is hanging out. As for the good folks in the Axiom forums - some of us work in the consumer audio industry, and some of us work in the pro audio industry where we're more likely to be using AMS Neve, Mackie, and Behringer products. That's one reason I skulk around here - lots of talent here.

In reply to:

They need to stop wasting there money on marketing the Burr Brown name in there equipment as it's a waste of money! Then we need to remind them to fire there engineers that spec Burr Brown because apparently they don't know squat either!



You hit the nail on the head with the marketing comment. "Player comes with highly refined Burr Brown DACs - the greatest of all integrated circuits... the chip that died on the cross for other chips' sins" sounds a lot better than "lets face it... we sound like everyone else - we're sorry, there are limitations to what technology can offer you, please choose us because we're a fine bunch of guys"

Bren R.

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#61453 - 09/26/04 03:31 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
I have never worked in the "Pro" industry per say but I'm again versed with most of the gear. I spent many years on the road playing guitar in a Rock band and we used a great deal of Behringer stuff from consoles to crossovers etc. My old guitar tech to this day uses Behringer amps in his HT set-up. Main reason is he can get them far cheaper then consumer amps. I went through a stage when I ran all Crown stuff but that was a long time ago.

As for the marketing part. Yes your right marketing of course plays a role as Burr Brown is a respected name and they are easy to promote but for every large company that I have worked for, the engineers spec it, and marketing figures out how to sell it, not the other way around. They must spec it for a reason..............and last time I checked most engineers didn't give a you know what about marketing.

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#61454 - 09/26/04 12:54 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
md55 Offline
local

Registered: 05/20/03
Posts: 284
Loc: Nevada City, CA
Call them parts, components or subsystems somebody is manufacturing them in a factory or many factories and assembling them in others. Saying we did it all ourselves or that nobody else has our subassemblies seems irrelevant to me. I would rather have a unit made up of proven components that others have found worth basing their business on; with prices reflecting the economies of scale of millions of units made where engineering, tooling, and quality control systems are paid for by small margins on millions of units rather than scrimped on and/or paid for on the markup of a few units.

Look at how performance and reliability rise on any technology while price drops as it goes into mass production. Whether something appears as brand unique is more marketing than substance.

I was a teenager when I first saw this come up as a big issue. GM was "caught" selling Oldsmobiles and Buicks with, Oh No! Chevy engines. People (my mother) thought they were buying something special when they paid more for an Olds and were outraged. My father, an industrial engineer, didn't give it a second thought. Did it really matter whether the same parts were sub-assembled on an Olds or Chevy assembly line? Most of what was different was cosmetic, and labeling. Of course there are differences but most of them are in the user interface and in small refinements that make the products distinct.

So what is the difference today between a Mercedes and a Dodge? More often it depends on the specific unit you buy than on the brand.

I prefer to look at how a particular model performs and is priced than on whether it is made up of proprietary parts. I generally prefer to know the parts have been deemed worthy by many manufacturers who chose among competing systems. This lets companies focus on doing a few things really well and others focus on assembling the parts well. From what I can see much of what makes one product better than another these days is how one “brand” selects and integrates the various components.

My first car was a Saab, one of the most unique small manufacturers in the world at that time. It had many advanced features in 1972: fuel injection(Bosch), dual system diagonal four wheel disc brakes, room for five large adults and a huge trunk in a small car package for $3200. It also had some weaknesses. Saab couldn’t afford to develop a new engine so they bought engines from Triumph and put them in backwards, flywheel in front for their front wheel drive design. The big weakness was the cooling system.

Saab just came out with the new 9-2x model. What is it? A Subaru Imprezza WRX restyled and dressed up to feel like a Saab. How does this happen? GM now owns 100% of Saab and 20% of Subaru. Could a small brand like Saab even exist today on its own? I doubt it, the costs of developing world class proprietary automobiles is far too high today. So is this a good thing or a bad thing. Id’ have to drive one to decide. But at least I know considering a new model that its chassis and engine have a proven history and design and development have received the benefit of far more resources that Saab alone could bring to bear.

I own Axiom and Outlaw Audio products. I understand that Axiom OEM’s for other companies and is very closed mouthed about this. Outlaw’s principle execs work for other companies and some of their products are identical to other OEM’s. They are sharing the design and manufacturing costs among different brands. What does this mean to me? It means I can by from an internet only company with great customer service at ½ the price for virtually identical products with a different label and cosmetics.

This is the global economy and why we can all afford some pretty amazing technology at ridiculous prices.

_________________________
Mark

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#61455 - 09/26/04 11:53 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
In reply to:

As for the marketing part. Yes your right marketing of course plays a role as Burr Brown is a respected name and they are easy to promote but for every large company that I have worked for, the engineers spec it, and marketing figures out how to sell it, not the other way around. They must spec it for a reason..............and last time I checked most engineers didn't give a you know what about marketing.



But it's not the engineers that make those decisions... no E/E is going to be holding court with Kunitake Ando (Sony's president) to give him a rundown of what ICs the new Sony line will contain. Some middle manager somewhere will go to a trade show, get wined, dined and 69ed by a manufacturer, a deal will be struck whereby they each scratch each other's back and salute each other's product until they get tennis elbow, and he'll come back with a disc full of the manufacturer's slick "Our Chipset Inside" graphic treatments and marketing claims and a tube full of their product.

To see the impact of marketing hype - see Betamax vs VHS, Bose vs Everyone, Monster vs Belkin.

Again, I insist the bigger fight here is manufacturers touting their chips as being the most accurate - hey, guys... why not make it a moot point, flip off the RIAA's concerns about perfect copies and give us the best possible connection between players and receivers in a digital signal? TOSlink, SPDIF - I don't care, I'm pretty easy.

Bren R.

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