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#61396 - 09/18/04 04:30 PM New DVD/CD player?
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
I'm contemplating buying a new DVD player and / or a CD player. I'm torn between a CD mega changer, CD/DVD mega changer, or buying separates.

I guess the first question I have is whether I would see / here an improvement over what I have now if I buy new toys. For DVD, I have the Toshiba SD-6200 and CD I have a Kenwood DP-M6650. I've had the CD for close to ten years and the DVD for about four years.

I definitely want the ability to play numerous CDs because the player is up in the loft and I don't want to run up the stairs every time to change a CD. It doesn't matter much about the DVDs, I don't watch much TV. One at a time works for me. I just want a good looking picture.

I see that Sony has some mega changers that play just about everything, but not DVD-A. I wonder how reliable they are though. Seems to me that's asking for trouble.

My TV is a four year old 46" Mitsubishi HD80. My receiver is a H/K 7200.

.....mike
_________________________


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#61397 - 09/18/04 05:28 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
demasoni Offline
local

Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 206
Loc: VA, USA
take a look at the HK DVD 22, it has awesome DVD and CD quality, that's what I'm going to get to match up with my HK 3480 receiver too, cost only about $199.

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#61398 - 09/18/04 05:37 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
I don't like MEGA changers but some here do. I had a hard time going to a 5 disc but it has worked well. I went with the Denon 2815. Very nice player that uses Faroudja processing.

It more or less has the same guts as the Denon 910 which is a very highly regarded player.

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#61399 - 09/18/04 08:06 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
ringmir Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/03/04
Posts: 619
Loc: boston
I have a sony CDP-CX455 and am quite happy with it. It's awesome to have my whole cd collection at my fingertips at all times. I have only put copies of my originals in it that have "cd text" burned on them (so it automatically displays cd and track info). This way, if it scratches a disk, or randomly looses my programmed track info (the two possible negatives I've found in online reviews), it doesn't matter.
_________________________
[black]-"The further we go and older we grow, the more we know, the less we show."[/black]

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#61400 - 09/18/04 11:35 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Mike, having enjoyed the convenience(and flawless operation) of a couple of megachangers for some time, I'd never again consider a single disc player and suggest that your experience would probably be equally positive. Even for occasional use, there's no good reason not to include DVD capability; consider one of the Sony models.
_________________________
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#61401 - 09/19/04 06:09 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
I checked out the Sony's. I'm having trouble believing that they can do everything that they claim for what they are selling them for. They seem to be too good to be true........Then I look at the Denon lines of universal players, and they are twice as much, and only play one disk at a time???? what's the big difference?

And what in the heck is Faroudja processing?
_________________________


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#61402 - 09/19/04 07:41 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
In reply to:

And what in the heck is Faroudja processing?




It is a Decoding Engine, for processing film, video, graphics or mixed-mode content. Like anything else in HT, you get what you pay for and there are a ton of different processors out there. Some are good and some are junk. Faroudja is one of the best out there.

I have yet to buy a DVD player and not looked into this aspect of it. For me there are only 2 or 3 processors out there that are worth a dam.

.................and just because I know someone is going to ask, these are some of the ones I like:

Silicon Image
Faroudja
Genesis (But only on a few models)


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#61403 - 09/19/04 08:03 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
By the way, Sony for the most part uses there own until you get into the high end players which is kind of funny. Anyway, when you get in to there high end player the 9000ES it uses Genesis. I always thought it was odd that they use there own till it hits the high end stuff, then they use someone else's!

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#61404 - 09/19/04 08:12 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Oh hell, I just noticed you are using a 6200 for a DVD player. Be prepared to be disappointed in whatever you buy. The DVD player you are currently running is a very nice one. You will have a hard time finding a MEGA that will come close to it's video quality. By the way, the 6200 uses a Genesis! There are a ton of "Experts" out there that think the 6200 is the best DVD player Toshiba ever made.

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#61405 - 09/19/04 11:08 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Thank you. That's the type of information I need. When I bought the 6200, the salesman told me it was the best unit on the market. He was preaching 'true' progressive scan, blah, blah, blah. He was convincing enough, so I dropped $600 on it. Only problem I have with it, is it's fussy with some DVD's. I have to reload them a couple times every now and then. Has done that from day one.

So what about CD sound quality. Should I upgraid to a new CD player? Something that will play the new SACD's, or go with a universal?? or should I just stick with what I have?
_________________________


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#61406 - 09/19/04 11:47 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
The loading is common with that player. If it works, just live with it for now. Are you hooked on a MEGA or does it really matter? If not and you can live without one, there are a lot of good stand alone CD players out there or you can do a little upgrading and get a great DVD player and CD player in one box.................but you will not get any MEGA recommendations from me. Sorry, I'm just not a fan. I don't trust em and I have yet to see one running anything in the way of guts I would own. If you could live with a 5 disc there are a few out there from Denon, HK and some others that will work.......or you could get the Denon 3910 and be in heaven !


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#61407 - 09/20/04 03:39 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
No, just looking at them. I definately want no less than five though. My system is upstairs and I listen to music downstairs on the Zone II. Quite a pain to run up and down the stairs when guests are over. What brought this about is that I've got a couple SACD's and they sound like crap. I was thinking it must be my player.
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#61408 - 09/20/04 04:02 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
mdrew- to playing the sacd's properly, you have to ensure that you have the cd/dvd player hooked to the receiver using the 6 analog connections. plus, when playing the sacd, you have to set the receiver to play the 'analog' or 'mulit-channel' input.. if you did this, then i am sorry for implying that you didnt.

in addition, i think to really get the full sacd experince, you need the full 5.1 set-up. unless it is a 2ch sacd, and i havent heard any of those myself. if you were playing a 5.1 sacd just thru your M80's and sub on the bottom floor, then you would be missing out on 3 channels of music(center and 2 surrounds).

bigjohn
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EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#61409 - 09/20/04 05:35 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
md55 Offline
local

Registered: 05/20/03
Posts: 284
Loc: Nevada City, CA
Integra has new universal 6 disc player, theDCP-8.5
_________________________
Mark

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#61410 - 09/20/04 07:56 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
JaimeG Offline
aficionado

Registered: 12/25/02
Posts: 556
Loc: Ashburn, VA
"...then you would be missing out on 3 channels of music(center and 2 surrounds). "

At least with both of my denon equipments, avr3300 and dvd2200, you can enter which speakers you are missing and itíll redirect sound to the mains. Although Iím not exactly sure if itíll redirect signal from surrounds to the mains spkrs in a 5.1 sacd w/ only a pair of speakers, I do know itíll redirect the center channel as well as the sub signal to both mains.
_________________________
The sailor does not pray for wind, he learns to sail. --Lindborg

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#61411 - 09/20/04 10:41 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
joninflorida Offline
local

Registered: 08/10/04
Posts: 282
Loc: Lake Worth Florida
I think you can still use em both, I have the Yamaha 940-c, it also has the Faroudja processing, plays SACD, and DVD-A, a 5 disc changer, that I run in multi-input - discrete 6 channel mode, it's awesome, but I have an older 200 disc Sony, that when we want to relax, have some company, a party, or work around the house, we load it up and random - let it rock! I Use the Yamaha for more detailed listening and viewing, but the ol 200 disc jukebox lets me drink some cold ones without fussin. Jon
_________________________
Sunfire amps & processor Sammy 50" Crown amp 2-SVS SS Maple Ultras, Axiom 60s,22s,150cc, QS8s

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#61412 - 09/20/04 11:12 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
oooh, I seem to have found my next disc player...
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#61413 - 09/20/04 11:23 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
I guess I'm odd. When I go into party mode I fire up my computer and let 10,000+ mp3's do there thing! I have my computer running through a decent sound card via a direct optical connection to my Denon 3805.

My problem is whenever I put in a disc, I consider it critical time and I get way to fussy! lol I also like the fact that the money I was going to spend on a MEGA changer can now be used for something else.

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#61414 - 09/21/04 12:45 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
I too have about 15 gigs of music on my computer. Itís just fine for when Iím tinkering in the office, but the sound quality is not to my liking on my main sound system. Probably because I screwed up and used WMA format when I first started loading the CDís. Iím not about to re-do several hundred in MP-3.

I know nothing about Integra. That 8.5 looks like a dandy. Is Integra a reputable, high end brand?? Iíll have to take a peak at that Yamaha when I get a chance. Whatís the average price tags on those two units?

_________________________


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#61415 - 09/21/04 01:03 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
integra is actually an upper end grade of onkyo's.

kinda like a toyota to a lexus..

their receivers look very similar, and have equal functions. i would bet the integras would be comparible to the onkyo 801's or 901's and higher..

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#61416 - 09/21/04 01:11 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
md55 Offline
local

Registered: 05/20/03
Posts: 284
Loc: Nevada City, CA
Integra is Onkyo's high end brand like Lexus, Infinity, or Acura.
_________________________
Mark

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#61417 - 09/21/04 01:29 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Just in case it hits your radar, stay clear of the Onkyo 701. A great example of a really bad 6 disc player.

Only problem I have with the Integra line in terms of there DVD players is very little is actually there own. The DVS-939 for example is nothing more then a Pioneer 45a with some subtle changes and then re-branded. I guess what gets me is they take an Onkyo, then re-brand it Integra which in turn is a re-branded Pioneer? Can't they just build there own? lol

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#61418 - 09/21/04 02:42 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
In reply to:

Just in case it hits your radar, stay clear of the Onkyo 701. A great example of a really bad 6 disc player.


Oh Really? I've had one for quite a while now and haven't had any problems with it. What about it makes you say it's "really bad"?
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#61419 - 09/21/04 03:16 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Ajax, One word, reliability. Did you know that this player has one of the highest return rates in Onkyo history? I got that right from an Onkyo sales rep. For every 5 sold, 3 came back within the first 6 months. Some folks have had no problems but a ton of people and I mean a ton of people have had problems with that player. My brother-in-law went through 2 of these in less then 60 day's before going with a Sony.

I hate to say it as I don't like cutting up stuff other people own but I could go on about this one. I thought the video quality was average at best, overall build quality was average at best. About the only decent thing I could say about it when my brother-in-law had it was it seemed to be a decent transport.

Please don't get pissed at me, I'm just posting what I know about that model. Yours may be perfect and who knows maybe in later runs they got some stuff fixed and looked after the massive chroma problem that player had. I still however back my first post, I would advise most to stay clear of it as there is far better out there for the same money............and I also don't like the 702 which Onkyo put out as a speedy replacement.

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#61420 - 09/21/04 03:17 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
joninflorida Offline
local

Registered: 08/10/04
Posts: 282
Loc: Lake Worth Florida
I really like my Yamaha, it also is a nice match with my rxv-1400 amp, it retails at 499.00 (U.S.) seems to be going for abount 360.00 at the low price on-line electronic places - plus shipping. I got mine through an awards program, don't know of the others availavle, you can tell the difference over my conventional DVD player on a big (50") screen, the discrete 6 channel audio really makes for an enjoyable movie experience, and although limited, the SACD is a whole new sound, IMHO Jon http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/DVD/DVDC940.htm
_________________________
Sunfire amps & processor Sammy 50" Crown amp 2-SVS SS Maple Ultras, Axiom 60s,22s,150cc, QS8s

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#61421 - 09/21/04 03:24 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Yeah the Yamaha is a nice player but I must admit I have not fooled around to much with the multi disc stuff from Yamaha. Not many people know this but Yamaha made what many consider to be one of the best DVD players built to date........the DVD-2300MKII. Awesome player with a picture that is to die for. The picture is as good as the Denon 5900 for 75% less money.

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#61422 - 09/21/04 04:44 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
No problem, John. I was just curious as to why you thought it a bad player.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#61423 - 09/21/04 05:22 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Thanks Jack. There is one thing I would like to point out now that I have had a little time to reflect on my original post. My thoughts on the 701 are my own. Jack and others have this player and it works peachy perfect for them. I branded this player with a little to broad a brush. I do believe strongly that this player may have had some issues when it first came out but going from Jacks experience and others, it sounds like the problems were identified and fixed.


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#61424 - 09/22/04 01:50 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Where can I buy Integra on line? I have not been able to locate an on line dealer.
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#61425 - 09/24/04 01:06 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Well the Integra's out. Only custom installers or select high end audio shops sell it, all of which in AK do not. So I'm screwed there.

Any other five or more universal players (or killer non-DVD) that I should be looking at? I've had it with my CD player. Dam thing is starting to skip and wont play some of my newer CDs. Heck, I couldn't even get my Toshiba or Kenwood to play the new "The Calling" CD, and my pick up CD player plays it just fine. What's up with that??
_________________________


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#61426 - 09/24/04 02:06 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
The Denon 2815 is a nice player...........at least I like mine. I would also take a peek at Yamaha and if you want to spend a few more bucks, NAD.

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#61427 - 09/25/04 12:12 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Thanks N/H. I looked at the yamies and I got to tell you. I'm a little miffed. One unit plays everything but SACD, and the other plays everyting but DVDA. I also looked at NAD, but again, limited formats. What a bunch of crap that is??? Dam dummies. What do you think about the Onkyo DVCP802. Looks just like the integra and plays everything. I reckon that seeing how I'm looking at $500 - $800, I might as well go with a universal player.
_________________________


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#61428 - 09/25/04 03:10 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
If I'm not mistaken the DVCP802 is another example of Onkyo rebranding somebody else's player. It's basically a Pioneer chassis and a few other Pioneer parts. If your bound and determined to get a multi disc universal player, I would wait until some of the new stuff hits the streets.

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#61429 - 09/25/04 07:33 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
md55 Offline
local

Registered: 05/20/03
Posts: 284
Loc: Nevada City, CA
What is wrong with using parts from other manufacturers? This is pretty typical across the board, electronics, appliances, cars. It is what makes stuff more affordable. Look at what you can but that is entirely proprietary $$$.
_________________________
Mark

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#61430 - 09/25/04 11:26 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
There is a nothing wrong with using parts. Read my post again. I'm not talking about just parts, some of the players we are discussing here are far more then just parts. It's a re-brand and I think that's BS. If whoever manufacture can't figure out how to make a DVD player or whatever on there own, they should not be in the DVD player business.

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#61431 - 09/25/04 01:44 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Thanks for the advise. You're probably right and I should wait. But I'm too dam impatient!! haha... That Sony mega changer is starting to look better now. It plays everything. I'm not convinced it can do all it says it can well though. For what they're claiming it can do, it seams to be an incredible bargain.

So which Pioneer is Onkyo copying? The closest I could find to it in a changer was the DVC36, but it isn't universal.

While I got your ear, I keep seeing 'Burr-Brown' audio chipsets referred on the higher end CD players. Is this something I should be looking for? Is so, which one, there's several.
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#61432 - 09/25/04 01:59 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
But the Sonys don't play DVD-As. Not that those seem particularly popular around here, anyway. I personally have my doubts about many things being released on SACD or DVD-A in the long term; it seems that more focus is being put on downloadable music (and the associated DRM). In the mainstream media and geek media, you just don't hear about SACD or DVD-A.

Or maybe it's just sour grapes 'cause I can't rationalize a new player right now...
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#61433 - 09/25/04 03:22 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Ken i've never seen you sour. Maybe somewhat bitter at times, possibly even salty, but not sour.
Maybe Peter knows about your sweet side.

Mmm, i have this crazy urge for a Boddingtons.


Edited by chesseroo (09/25/04 03:23 PM)
_________________________
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#61434 - 09/25/04 03:23 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
Oh goody, now I have flavors. What, you haven't seen me [flowers]sweet?[/flowers]
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#61435 - 09/25/04 04:37 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
joninflorida Offline
local

Registered: 08/10/04
Posts: 282
Loc: Lake Worth Florida
the Yamaha DVDC-940 plays BOTH DVD-A and SACD, although I don't think the web site states this. It's right on my box, and stamped on the unit, I have played em both, Now excuse me while I wait for the 2nd hurricane to slam me in less than 3 weeks!!!!!!!!!!

"all systems sound the same when the electric is out"-----------AGAIN, should be a couple of hours now
_________________________
Sunfire amps & processor Sammy 50" Crown amp 2-SVS SS Maple Ultras, Axiom 60s,22s,150cc, QS8s

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#61436 - 09/25/04 05:05 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
In reply to:

I keep seeing 'Burr-Brown' audio chipsets referred on the higher end CD players. Is this something I should be looking for?




Yes you should be! As a matter of fact I would go as far as to say make it a requirement! Look for Burr Brown, I do on almost everything I own. There are some good DAC's out there but I have always been a Burr Brown fan.

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#61437 - 09/25/04 05:34 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
joninflorida Offline
local

Registered: 08/10/04
Posts: 282
Loc: Lake Worth Florida
you might find this link helpful, it hits on quite a few points http://www.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1843
_________________________
Sunfire amps & processor Sammy 50" Crown amp 2-SVS SS Maple Ultras, Axiom 60s,22s,150cc, QS8s

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#61438 - 09/25/04 08:24 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Thanks again for all your input, this is getting quite educational.

That's odd that the web sight doesn't list DVDA on the 940. I was looking at the CX 1 also, but it doesn't list SACD. I think I'll call and ask if it does. The CX 1 has the Brown Burr and weighs 23 pounds where the 940 weighs 13 pounds. Must be a stout unit.
_________________________


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#61439 - 09/25/04 08:45 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
joninflorida Offline
local

Registered: 08/10/04
Posts: 282
Loc: Lake Worth Florida
it's kinda weird, I don't know if this is more prevelent with Yamaha, but if you check my RXV-1400 amp. web-stes etc. It shows that it does NOT have dolby pro logic llx, but mine and later models do, I undersatand that Yamaha will "upgrade" the earlier models that did not at no charge at a factory authorized dealer. Seems like timing and all these changes (technology) occur quicker than they make/market these things, I am just happy as hell to still have power!! right now.
_________________________
Sunfire amps & processor Sammy 50" Crown amp 2-SVS SS Maple Ultras, Axiom 60s,22s,150cc, QS8s

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#61440 - 09/25/04 08:49 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
yeah, take care, dude. Looks pretty hairy over there...
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#61441 - 09/25/04 10:30 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Mike, I'll repeat my suggestion of the Sony megachanger. Next, whether the DACs are made by Burr-Brown is no longer of any particular significance. Ten years or so ago Burr-Brown(now a division of Texas Instruments)was considered a clear leader in the field by many. Now however, as Alan and others have pointed out, DACs are a mature technology. Although TI will supply excellent Burr-Brown DACs to manufacturers in quantity for as little as $1 each, other suppliers such as Analog Devices and Cirrus Logic are equally good. Although some of the old Burr-Brown mystique still exists in some circles, there's no factual basis for it, and it shouldn't be a factor in a purchasing decision.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#61442 - 09/25/04 10:51 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Dam did I just get kicked in the teeth again! Every time I turn around tonight I got somebody posting that what I just posted is BS!

Take it for what it's worth, stick with Burr Brown as it's still of significance for some................although it appears they dwell outside of this forum.

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#61443 - 09/25/04 10:59 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
Eh, don't stress on it. That's what JohnK always posts. Although you and I are often on different sides of the issue, it's still nice to have people with differing views on the forums.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#61444 - 09/25/04 11:05 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Stress? Nah I stress when I'm out of beer or Doritos. The stuff in here is fun. We are all armchair experts.

I would however like to point something out that drives me nuts. No disrespect to Allan, but just because he said it, does not make it a fact.

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#61445 - 09/26/04 01:28 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
Well, I'll defend Alan (one L - last name Lofft - two F's) here... I read his articles in the trade mag Sound & Vision Canada long before I knew about Axiom. The fact he was standing behind what Ian was doing was a big decision in my trying out the Axiom brand sound unheard.

As a long time reader of his, he's never once written anything I didn't believe or didn't have proven to me in time.

On the other side of the coin, I was playing with digital audio when IBM was still selling PCjrs with a Charlie Chaplin lookalike - built a basic audio digitizer out of a 0820ADC in the Commodore 64 days, there's really nothing to analog-digital or digital-analog ICs - ADCs are actually a bit more finicky than DACs. As for a certain chipset being light years ahead of another brands... one only has to cut through marketing hype and remember what the circuit does. A basic 16-bit DAC takes a digital number between 0 and 65535 and translates it into a voltage (say for simplicity 0-1v).

There are error-diffusion and oversampling DACs as well. Oversampling DACs simply take adjacent samples (or a series of samples) and extrapolate intermediate values between the actual sampled values. Technically, in the purest sense, this is distortion, but the manufacturers mean well - and it works - to a point. Put it this way - you see your wife at 3 - she's happy, at 6 - she's happy, at 9 - she throws a pan at you. Using interpolation, you'd say she was happy all the way from 3 til 6 (when really, she might have cried at a chick flick and gotten mad when she stubbed her toe, then realized she stubbed her toe on her birthday present from you, which made her happy again - all of which your interpolation missed), then you'd say she was 33% angry at 7, 66% angry at 8 on her way to becoming 100% angry at 9. None of which may even be remotely true - you're just connecting the dots between known samples. Not the worst technology in the world, but not exactly something to write home about either.

The error-diffusion type ICs use various mathematical equations (like 1 bit delta-sigma) to pass along the remainder of each sample to the next sample, this happens at the sub-sample level (less than a 1/65535 of total amplitude in a sample by definition!) so we're talking about a very minimal level of audio "sweetening". If you can hear the difference between samples at say binary 1111111111111111 and 1111111111111110, then call the Guinness people.

The bigger question SACD-P owners should be asking is "why am I even allowing them to screw me this way?"... we finally get a digital datapipe between components and receivers in TOSlink and SPDIF - then they panic about perfect digital copies and revert back to 50+ year old analog technology? Next they'll bring back the cassette tape so there will be generational loss with each copy.

Bren R.

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#61446 - 09/26/04 02:35 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
The guy comes looking for a recommendation on a new player and it turns into this. Oh well.

BrenR, there is no reason to defend Alan. (I spelled it right!) I was not attacking him in anyway shape or form. I'm just tired of seeing "Alan said" and people running with it like it's the gospel. He has stated several things that are based simply on his own opinions and nothing else. That is all I was trying to get across. Not that it matters but I have been reading S&V for just as long as you and I'm fully aware of who Alan is and what his past accomplishments are. The fact he chooses to promote the Axiom brand and Ian in general has no bearing on what I said.

As for the Burr Brown argument, call Guinness. I can hear the difference. Although I don't recall ever saying they are light years ahead of anything else?? I simply stated I prefer them. Apparently that is a no no in this place. State an opinion without a long winded scientific explanation as to why, shame on me!!! Who the hell do I think I am? Then when were done calling Guinness we need to call Denon, Parasound, Pioneer and a boat load of other manufactures and tell them the good folks in the Axiom forums have news they need to hear! They need to stop wasting there money on marketing the Burr Brown name in there equipment as it's a waste of money! Then we need to remind them to fire there engineers that spec Burr Brown because apparently they don't know squat either!


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#61447 - 09/26/04 02:45 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
Whoa there, buddy, calm down.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#61448 - 09/26/04 02:56 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Slow down, why? I'm not picking on BrenR or anybody else for that matter but there seem to be more and more "We know more then you do" kind of posts around here lately and it's getting on my nerves.....sorry but I'm not the only one. I just seem to be the only one who will say it.

I think Burr Brown makes great DAC's. Not everyone agrees with that. That is fine to and it makes for good conversation.

If I did something wrong in my last post, I don't see it.

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#61449 - 09/26/04 03:00 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
This happens quite frequently around here, someone will say something, other people say prove it, the first person says prove yours first, the other people say we have science on our side, the first person says I have my ears, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Normal conversation.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#61450 - 09/26/04 03:02 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Yes that I now know. We have the science crowd saying prove it and the other side (Like me) saying prove me wrong!

It's all fun but some need to relax a little....and I will include myself in that group!

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#61451 - 09/26/04 03:04 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
That's all I was saying. I'm sorry I failed to say it to my own crowd.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#61452 - 09/26/04 03:20 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
In reply to:

we need to call Denon, Parasound, Pioneer and a boat load of other manufactures and tell them the good folks in the Axiom forums have news they need to hear!



Please... you dial and hand me the receiver... I'd relish an opportunity to point out the Emperor's winky is hanging out. As for the good folks in the Axiom forums - some of us work in the consumer audio industry, and some of us work in the pro audio industry where we're more likely to be using AMS Neve, Mackie, and Behringer products. That's one reason I skulk around here - lots of talent here.

In reply to:

They need to stop wasting there money on marketing the Burr Brown name in there equipment as it's a waste of money! Then we need to remind them to fire there engineers that spec Burr Brown because apparently they don't know squat either!



You hit the nail on the head with the marketing comment. "Player comes with highly refined Burr Brown DACs - the greatest of all integrated circuits... the chip that died on the cross for other chips' sins" sounds a lot better than "lets face it... we sound like everyone else - we're sorry, there are limitations to what technology can offer you, please choose us because we're a fine bunch of guys"

Bren R.

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#61453 - 09/26/04 03:31 AM Re: New DVD/CD player?
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
I have never worked in the "Pro" industry per say but I'm again versed with most of the gear. I spent many years on the road playing guitar in a Rock band and we used a great deal of Behringer stuff from consoles to crossovers etc. My old guitar tech to this day uses Behringer amps in his HT set-up. Main reason is he can get them far cheaper then consumer amps. I went through a stage when I ran all Crown stuff but that was a long time ago.

As for the marketing part. Yes your right marketing of course plays a role as Burr Brown is a respected name and they are easy to promote but for every large company that I have worked for, the engineers spec it, and marketing figures out how to sell it, not the other way around. They must spec it for a reason..............and last time I checked most engineers didn't give a you know what about marketing.

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#61454 - 09/26/04 12:54 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
md55 Offline
local

Registered: 05/20/03
Posts: 284
Loc: Nevada City, CA
Call them parts, components or subsystems somebody is manufacturing them in a factory or many factories and assembling them in others. Saying we did it all ourselves or that nobody else has our subassemblies seems irrelevant to me. I would rather have a unit made up of proven components that others have found worth basing their business on; with prices reflecting the economies of scale of millions of units made where engineering, tooling, and quality control systems are paid for by small margins on millions of units rather than scrimped on and/or paid for on the markup of a few units.

Look at how performance and reliability rise on any technology while price drops as it goes into mass production. Whether something appears as brand unique is more marketing than substance.

I was a teenager when I first saw this come up as a big issue. GM was "caught" selling Oldsmobiles and Buicks with, Oh No! Chevy engines. People (my mother) thought they were buying something special when they paid more for an Olds and were outraged. My father, an industrial engineer, didn't give it a second thought. Did it really matter whether the same parts were sub-assembled on an Olds or Chevy assembly line? Most of what was different was cosmetic, and labeling. Of course there are differences but most of them are in the user interface and in small refinements that make the products distinct.

So what is the difference today between a Mercedes and a Dodge? More often it depends on the specific unit you buy than on the brand.

I prefer to look at how a particular model performs and is priced than on whether it is made up of proprietary parts. I generally prefer to know the parts have been deemed worthy by many manufacturers who chose among competing systems. This lets companies focus on doing a few things really well and others focus on assembling the parts well. From what I can see much of what makes one product better than another these days is how one ďbrandĒ selects and integrates the various components.

My first car was a Saab, one of the most unique small manufacturers in the world at that time. It had many advanced features in 1972: fuel injection(Bosch), dual system diagonal four wheel disc brakes, room for five large adults and a huge trunk in a small car package for $3200. It also had some weaknesses. Saab couldnít afford to develop a new engine so they bought engines from Triumph and put them in backwards, flywheel in front for their front wheel drive design. The big weakness was the cooling system.

Saab just came out with the new 9-2x model. What is it? A Subaru Imprezza WRX restyled and dressed up to feel like a Saab. How does this happen? GM now owns 100% of Saab and 20% of Subaru. Could a small brand like Saab even exist today on its own? I doubt it, the costs of developing world class proprietary automobiles is far too high today. So is this a good thing or a bad thing. Idí have to drive one to decide. But at least I know considering a new model that its chassis and engine have a proven history and design and development have received the benefit of far more resources that Saab alone could bring to bear.

I own Axiom and Outlaw Audio products. I understand that Axiom OEMís for other companies and is very closed mouthed about this. Outlawís principle execs work for other companies and some of their products are identical to other OEMís. They are sharing the design and manufacturing costs among different brands. What does this mean to me? It means I can by from an internet only company with great customer service at Ĺ the price for virtually identical products with a different label and cosmetics.

This is the global economy and why we can all afford some pretty amazing technology at ridiculous prices.

_________________________
Mark

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#61455 - 09/26/04 11:53 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
In reply to:

As for the marketing part. Yes your right marketing of course plays a role as Burr Brown is a respected name and they are easy to promote but for every large company that I have worked for, the engineers spec it, and marketing figures out how to sell it, not the other way around. They must spec it for a reason..............and last time I checked most engineers didn't give a you know what about marketing.



But it's not the engineers that make those decisions... no E/E is going to be holding court with Kunitake Ando (Sony's president) to give him a rundown of what ICs the new Sony line will contain. Some middle manager somewhere will go to a trade show, get wined, dined and 69ed by a manufacturer, a deal will be struck whereby they each scratch each other's back and salute each other's product until they get tennis elbow, and he'll come back with a disc full of the manufacturer's slick "Our Chipset Inside" graphic treatments and marketing claims and a tube full of their product.

To see the impact of marketing hype - see Betamax vs VHS, Bose vs Everyone, Monster vs Belkin.

Again, I insist the bigger fight here is manufacturers touting their chips as being the most accurate - hey, guys... why not make it a moot point, flip off the RIAA's concerns about perfect copies and give us the best possible connection between players and receivers in a digital signal? TOSlink, SPDIF - I don't care, I'm pretty easy.

Bren R.

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#61456 - 10/06/04 01:24 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Figured an update was in order seeing how so many of you took the time to help me out with this. I ended up buying an Integra 8.5. I just happened to be at a A/V store (yíall know how that goes right??, just like I Ďjust happenedí to end up sitting in an 05 vette on the showroom floor too), and low and behold, they had just received a shipment of the 8.5ís. They had sold about a dozen of the units, had time to play with it and compare it to other players they sell, and all the salesmen gave it the thumbs up vote. Maybe they make more money off Integra than the other brands they carried, but I didnít get that impression. They also sell Yamaha, Denon, McIntosh, Rotell, Sony, Pioneer, Krell, and a few other brands that I spell as well as the others Iíve listed. Yep, I canít spell worth a crap. I slept through English.

Iím still screwing around with the dam thing. It has more options and functions than I care to learn how to manipulate. Hell, Iím still figuring out the Toshiba 6200 Iíve had for about three years. I simply hooked up the analogue two channel cables up to it that were going to my old Kenwood CD player, the optical and component cables that were going to the Toshiba and popped in a couple CDís that I wasnít all that impressed with in the Kenwood. I didnít notice any earth shattering differences with sound, but Iím pretty convinced that they sounded cleaner, crisper, and generally better. But maybe Iím trying to justify the $700 purchase. I then popped in a new DVD (Alamo) and thought the picture was worse than the Toshiba. It was, but that was because the Integra was not playing in progressive mode. Last night I figured out how to select Progressive, and the picture is every bit as good as the Toshiba, and possibly better. Iíll do some more comparing and post my observations on a new post later. I also have some cable questions to float by yíall. Two things about this that I donít like are: 1) can not select progressive scan when the DVD is playing (has to be stopped) 2) the Toshiba will let me increase picture size and this one will not.

Thanks again, and Iíll post an audio/video idiotís perspective of this unitís performance after I have time to play with it some more.

_________________________


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#61457 - 10/06/04 04:23 PM Re: New DVD/CD player?
joninflorida Offline
local

Registered: 08/10/04
Posts: 282
Loc: Lake Worth Florida
Congrats, what another 700 bones right?? You did say you are running componant video right? I don't believe you can run progressive scan unless you have componant (red, green, blue) My video quality was/is better, but not "wow" better. The biggest difference for me was on the audio side, I also initally ran 2 channel from the old DVD player, but when I went to discrete 6 channel, and a little tweaking = awesome! With many discs, depending on the recording, or encodeing, I guess, the difference is emense.
_________________________
Sunfire amps & processor Sammy 50" Crown amp 2-SVS SS Maple Ultras, Axiom 60s,22s,150cc, QS8s

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