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#77183 - 01/17/05 12:21 AM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Occam's razor. Trust your ears before you misapply a theory like "cognitive dissonance."

Respectfully, I think we must use this theory to 'shoe the other foot.' Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation. It therefore occurs when there is a need to accommodate new ideas, and it may be necessary for it to develop so that we become "open" to them.

Trust your ears before you trust theory that says you shouldn't. The music comes first, theory much behind it.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#77184 - 01/17/05 01:02 AM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
joema Offline
local

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Nashville, TN
In double-blind controlled tests people cannot tell any difference in AC power cables. That has been tested many times.

However if it sounds better to you, then I say go for it.

There are many things we do which make no measurable performance difference but make us feel better. Some people swear their cars run better after cleaning out the interior or changing the oil. How much faster does chrome trim make your car?

If changing your power cable or putting stabilizing pads under your amplifier improves the sound (to you), then don't worry about it and enjoy.

Just keep track of the money you're spending and always compare that to alternatives, such as buying more discs, upgrading some other component, etc.

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#77185 - 01/17/05 09:15 AM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
Misfit_Toy Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 346
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Well...a lot has happened whilst I've been off the forum.

I can see how you would be skeptical of something like this. Heck, I was. It came with a 30 day money back guarantee, so I thought I had nothing to lose. And I didn't. But just as others have brought out the theory of "I'm trying to justify my purchase" I also have a theory. "Don't knock it till you try it". Which seems to be one that many people on forums these days suffer from.

Though I must say that many of you have been very open minded. I heard what I heard, others heard it. What can I say. It's my ears, and their ears having actually done A/B against people saying "theorhetically it doesn't make sense." Maybe not, but it works. What else can I say. Science isn't the answer to everything.

Try it or not, I just thought I'd offer up an option to those who are curious about trying to make improvements in their sound.

So once again, because I am very forgetful on how to do the quicklink, here is the site to which I owe my thanks http://www.signalcable.com.

Thanks to all for listening...
_________________________
"We're on the island of Misfit Toys"

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#77186 - 01/18/05 02:30 PM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16258
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Occam's Razor actually works against you here. Given that measurements taken during controlled scientific tests indicate that using differnet speaker wires or power cables of at least adequate construction do not result in perceptible differences, which is more likely the case:

a. that any differences perceived by the human ear actually do not exist and are a result of other factors.

or

b. that any differences perceived by the human ear do exist, meaning that the human ear is some sensitive than scientific measuring devices.

Since it can easily be proven that scientific measuring devices (waveform analyzers, current/voltmeters, decibel meters) are MUCH more sensitive than the human ear, this is also why cognitive dissonance (CD) plays a role. CD is a given since you to continue to assert that your ears are far superior to said tools for the purpose of detecting differences.


Edited by pmbuko (01/18/05 02:32 PM)
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#77187 - 01/18/05 04:28 PM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
Misfit_Toy Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 346
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Ahh...scientific equipment. I have countless times run across things that sound different but someone will tell me because you can't measure it with these tools it's wrong. It's like in Star Wars II. "Master Kenobi, if it is not it our records it does not exist!" ...and how wrong she was.

All I can say is, to all the people who are on the fence listening between people who have clearly found their place on one side or the other. Keep an open mind and see for yourself. Go to a high end store that carries multiple products such as after market cords for interconnects and power cables and take a listen. It's free, and you can hear for yourself what you think.

...and for those who don't want to. More power to you. You'll spend less money than me

I look at home theater like a car hobby. I'm modding my system to get a different (and hopefully better) performance. It's the hobby that never sleeps.
_________________________
"We're on the island of Misfit Toys"

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#77188 - 01/18/05 08:28 PM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16258
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
I just want to make it clear that, despite my penchant for espousing upon the scientific merits of various "audio improvement techniques," I'm definitely not arguing against listening for yourself. Ears are attached to the brain, and your brain is the final judge of all things personal.

That being said, I think it's important to hear both sides of the debate. Even if you leave scientific measuring equipment out of it altogether and perform a double-blind experiment that makes use of human ears alone, results of listening tests indicate the inability to distinguish between cables and wires. Use of the force is optional, of course.


Edited by pmbuko (01/18/05 08:33 PM)
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#77189 - 01/18/05 08:46 PM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
Ned Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 117
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Debate......uuuhh yea right. Just something else to drive people away from this place.
_________________________
Axiom Denon Paradigm SVS

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#77190 - 01/18/05 09:41 PM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
BBIBH Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1032
Loc: Canada
If the debate remains civil, it can add credibility to this place.

Having spent several decades engineering electronic/electrical devices, I have yet to see a scientific device that can measure things like -sibilance, gleem, sparkle, neutrality, impact, brightness, forwardness, and many other terms that are commonplace on this board. You can relate measurements to ideas, that is not in debate here.

Having said that, as I have said many times, you should listen, utiltize any measurements that exist, read reviews from "experts" and non experts - then make your decision.
_________________________
Regards,

Mike

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#77191 - 01/18/05 10:41 PM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
Michael_A Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/07/04
Posts: 418
Ok... I think we're dismissing this far too quickly.

The aftermarket power cords have MUCH better connectors on each end than the "let's toss something in the box that gets the AC from the wall to the power supply" that the manufacturers use. No matter how you slice it, a better ground connection in and of itself is better for the entire signal path. Everything in the system from wall outlet to speaker connection is referenced to ground. It could make an audible difference.

Secondly, the new power cords have larger gauge conductors in them. Larger = less resistance, so (theoretically at least), the amps can get more current on demand when the need arises. There is also a basic electronic principle taught in every basic to advanced electronic course that I have ever attended, called "The Maximum Power Transfer Theory", which I have copied here: "The Maximum Power Transfer Theory states that the maximum amount of power that can be withdrawn from a battery or a source of voltage is directly dependent on the resistance of the external load and the internal resistance existing within the voltage source.". Adding larger wires with less resistance changes the source (AC at wall) to external load (AVR power supply) impedance ratio which again, could be audible. Alan Lofft himself has said many times on this very board that "the louder speaker tends to sound better". More power to the amp probably results in a louder output. (This is also my vote as to why he perceives anj audible difference.)

Finally, the difference between ordinary phone wire, and cat 5 network cable is that cat 5 is carefully manufactured with a certain number of twists per foot. The conductors in cat 5 wire are much more tightly twisted. Typically, 3 to 4 twists per inch compared to 3 to 4 twists per foot for category 3. The web site Misfit pointed to mentions that the conductors are twisted, which is proven to induce less unwanted noise. The magnetic fields created by the changing voltages and currents in the wire "slice" through at various points along the conductors in different directions and at different angles. The induced currents tend to cancel each other out because they are being induced in different directions at different strengths as opposed to all "pulling or pushing" in the same direction. Noise on the line, neutral, and/or ground conductors will most likely get filtered by the power supply, but some portion could make it's way to the signal path, and become audible.

My point is that there are plenty of sound, scientific principles behind the product. If Misfit says he can hear the difference, then we have no choice but to believe him. Personally, even knowing the science behind it I would have a hard time spending $300 to find out.

I am glad to hear that Misfit is happy with his purchase, and we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions. After all, we aren't in his living room listening for ourselves. He went out on a limb by exposing himself to the criticism that he apparently knew would be coming his way. I thank him for giving us his honest opinion.
_________________________
M- M60s/VP150/QS8s/SVS PC-Ultra/HK630 Sit down. Shut up. Listen.

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#77192 - 01/18/05 11:43 PM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
Misfit_Toy Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 346
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Thanks Michael_A for your words of encouragment. And thank you also for the science lesson. I for one appreciate the time you've taken to explain this. Fascinating to say the least.
_________________________
"We're on the island of Misfit Toys"

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