I just got back from picking up the RB 1080 amp along with the RC 1070 preamp, man this is nice stuff! Thank you Rick (wid) for giving me so much help along the way.

Looks like the 80s won't be ordered untill a couple of more days...$$$. Oh well, I suppose I'll make it!

That is going to sound AMAZING! Did you get the black or the silver/black?

Pictures! Pictures! We want pictures!

I got the black/silver combination, and as was telling Rick a moment ago I'm thinking they MIGHT just get connected to the 60s for a couple of days...Hmmmmm!!

You are wecome Rick.I hope you get as much pleasure out of yours as I have mine.

The combo does sound pretty darn great IMO

Do you have M60ti's already?

Confused.

Yea, I have a pair of 60s along with the 8s, 100 and 350 connected to an H/K 635 for HT in the den. The Rotel and 80s will be for 2 channel music out front in the living area.

That's about going to do it for me for a long time to come!

Thanks again and I do believe they will sound great together.

Then what are you waiting for man? Hook those 60's up!

Well, since you twisted my arm and forced me to Craig...;)

I'll be back in a bit!

If you get the time could you post a picture of those bad boys?

Sure will Ford, and BTW, the other 'stuff' will be a few more days. I didn't order the 80s yet.

I did connect the 60s to the Rotels, wow is all I can say!

All we get is a wow

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All we get is a wow

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Nope, to be honest I really wasn't expecting much of a difference but I am really surprised, the clearity is amazing and I can tell that these are just begging for the 80s...although the 60s really sound incredible.

Seems like the Rotels really get going with some power, I cranked them up for a few minutes (wife is home) and man they were not bashful about giving you all the clear, crisp sound you want. SRVs 'Little Wing' from the Essential was the first song played. Incredible!

What's your player? If you say the RCD-1072 I'm really going to hate you.

Bob:
Sorry, I've been gone for a few days and am a little behind on my reading:
Just to be clear, are you saying that your M60s sound better through your Rotel stuff than whatever you were using previously?

Mark...don't be starting any trouble. Let the man enjoy his new toys!

Nope, actually it's a Sony RCD-W500C/W100 cd player/recorder. I have the Rotels and the cd player on the den floor in front of the HT system for access to the pair of 60s. I did this just to hear the Rotels, whenever the 80s get here the whole music system will go in the living room. I am amazed by the sound so far, I'm not believing the clarity.

Mark, I'm running the 60s with an H/K 635, ran them through the smaller Onkyo and yes the Rotels, to me, (and my wife) the sound is quite a bit more clear and crisp. We had the 60s at 100 db a little ago and the feel in the upper torso was complete bliss, the sound wasn't (again, to me) nearly as crisp and clear with H/K. But, for the difference in price and through the research I expected it to be better. I wasn't disappointed.

Most often for me it's overwhelming with all of the techincal details, but sometimes ignorance is bliss. I'm hearing a difference with nothing but my own pair of ears.

Well said Rick,No one can tell you that you don't hear a difference...............with you ears

not to start anything but.. what onkyo were you running before and was there a considerable dif when you moved to the h/k?

Sankeyes, I had the 502. Yes the H/K does sound better than the 502, but it should for the difference in price, but I'll say also that I really liked that little Onkyo. That so far has been the easiest to learn, the manual is very understandable even for dips like myself.

To me, there is more of a jump in sound difference from the Rotels to the H/K than there was from the Onkyo to the H/K. I do like the 635 though.

I wasn't looking to start the whole "can you hear the sound of amps" thing again. I've never gotten involved in that discussion in the past.

Yet, when someone moves to a "higher level" amp and, with the same speakers/room says he hears a difference, I'm interested. It's not blind A/B, and it's not scientific, but I'm interested nonetheless.

I'm a skeptic at heart...athiest... the whole bit. But I really think my old NAD separates sounded better than other receivers I had used at the time.... so I'm not closed minded to an amp sounding better. I'm just trying to get at what it IS that makes some people perceive it as better. Quicker transient response, more peak power (even for only milliseconds), a non-flat frequency response that imparts a warmth or a flat one that offers neutrality beyond other amps?

Skeptic, yes... but curious minds want to know...

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To me, there is more of a jump in sound difference from the Rotels to the H/K

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Given that you doubled the power, it should sound a little louder at lower volumes and of course with more watts, you should be able to get more db out of the M60's (3 or so)................but, yeah here it comes, I own the HK630 and spent some time with the RB1080 and I honestly thought they sounded close to each other. The Rotel has more snap when the volume gets up there but overall when I did my side by side, I thought the HK630 held it's own real well given it's just a box and not a separate. Now that is not a slam on the Rotel, if anything it's a compliment. I have owned a ton of receivers and have yet to hear anything in the $1000.00 to $1500.00 range come close to the HK. To be brutally honest, anytime I have A/B'd HK and Rotel, I have a hard time picking them out if the difference in wattage is factored into the overall volume level and if the system is running in pure direct. The one thing I did notice is that the Rotel has better control. Hard to explain what the hell that means, but some of you here will get it.

Now don't get me wrong, I like Rotel..................a lot. I looked hard at a few of there 5 channel amps but I could never get one for the price I was willing to pay, so I looked at something else.

Anyway, I think you have a very nice 2 channel system in the works and when you spend some more time with it, I would be curious to hear more detailed thoughts on why you feel the Rotel is better then the HK. You may peak my curiosity again and I may have to run to my dealer and borrow another RB1080 and do the side by side all over again!

Mark, you are asking the wrong person if you were asking me...all I can tell you is that I have a less than 2 week old H/K 635 with a less than day old Rotel 1080 amp/1070 preamp and I can audiably tell a difference with the very same speaker used for both.

I believe the A/V HK 635 will do it's job just fine with the 60s HT system in the den and I equally believe the Rotel/80s will fit my bill to an absolute 'T' in the main and larger living area. If not, I'll ship the 80s back before the 30 day limit and look elsewhere, I've never been bashful in that department.

Scientific data? Couldn't tell you a thing about it, but I will say my wife and I both feel that the Rotels sound better than the HK running the 60s. As long as I feel like a great choice was in both directions, that's all that matters to me...and my wife!

Hey, I guess I'm late to this thread, but I just wanted to say congrats, BrotherBob!

You know, as much as I love my 2-channel HK/M60 system, you've infected me with a case of upgradeitis! Darn you!

Enjoy the new system

Thanks Wegiz...I really like the H/K 60s combination also, it's a very good system!

You are more than welcome to come over anytime for a listen whenever you want, my door is always open to good audio friends!

well I'd be there now if it wasn't for a few miles.:)

If only you lived in Ann Arbor, Bob. Or I lived in Florida.

Btw, I am extremely happy with my system, it's just that even if the Rotels don't sound any better, they're works of art just to look at, imho.

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If only you lived in Ann Arbor, Bob. Or I lived in Florida.

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Oh, don't you worry. Sooner or later you'll make your way down here.

I'm also very happy with my reciever and 60s, wouldn't trade 'em for nothing. It's good to know that at the very least we ALL have good taste in quality!

Where are those pics? We want to see your new toys!

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Where are those pics?

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HA! Of all people!

hehehehe...

So you like the Rotel-Axiom combination... I'm interested in the M50s. Thinking about the Rotel RX-1052 receiver @ 100Wpc or a NAD C352 integrated @ 80Wpc. Leaning toward the Rotel though 'cause I've read that the M50s are warm and casual with their midrange dip. The Rotel is said to be less warm than NAD and a bit more "in yer face". Sounds like the right combination.

Don't bother with those descriptions. I read into them a year ago, and it nearly drove me insane.

The only way an amp would be "bright" or "warm" is if it had a 3 or higher dB lift or recession in any one frequency range while driving the speakers. Axioms are an easy load, so if the response changed this drastically while powering them - that amp is trash. Solid state amps have been around for over 25 years. By now they know how to make them with low distortion, high damping factor, flat frequency response, low stereo crosstalk.. you get the idea: neutral enough so that outside of power, if it's well designed there's not much else to compare.

The NAD and Rotel are both great amps that measure well. if they're halfway decently designed, and you're not driving two drastically different models(50 wpc vs 380 wpc), they'll sound the same.. Save yourself the headache and go with the better deal.

When comparing two well designed amps that measure well, blindly: I challenge anyone to hear a difference.

Well, a nice gent from this site is selling a Rotel RX-1052 receiver and emailed me a couple days ago....I guess I'll be in the Axiom/Rotel club!

... and you will not be sorry!! It was the other way around for me: from Rotel to Axioms. I am happy all the way!

YES!!!! THANKS AGAIN!!!

LOL...I kinda had an 'inkling' where the Rotel reciever was coming from. Enjoy!

Oh yes Rick (BrotherBob) you guessed it well, below is copied from my recent posting at Club Rotel:

""""Finally, somebody decided to buy my RX-1052 receiver (for sure he will not be sorry, great all-in-one unit). Immediately I went to my dealer... Anyway to make a long story short I came home with a brand new RB-1070 and RC-1070 combo. I was able to negotiate it down to USD1094 (of course plus VA tax). I think it is a good price.

Now, I came home, hooked it up (already purchased a second SilverCats IC from Doug), and... oh my God!!! When is this ever gonna end?!! Awesome sound, great dynamics, music had like "a big punch", and especially the bass was so much improved. Highs were more pronounced and crisp as well. Honestly, I did not think I will hear a bid difference from my rx-1052 receiver. Anyway... I am happy now.

Unfortunately, my dealer had to special order RB-1080 so I bought RB-1070, also because he gave a 30 day upgrade note on this one, I can swap it for the 1080 and they can special order it if I decide so. Until they get it, I can keep my 1070 home. But, I don't know if this would be necessary. 1070 sounds great to me, and I cannot imagine if 1080 can sound any better. Guys, please help! Do I need to go for 1080?

I ran a mini - mono cable from rc-1070 out to RB-1070 in 12v trigger and works fine. How about my RCD-1072? there is only one 12v trigger out on RC-1070, or should I run it from 12v trigger Out on my RB-1070 to the CD player? You think this will work?? (putting all three on standby mode, while pressing power button on RC-1070 remote).

I would like to know what do you think guys about my setup!!"""""

To continue with you BrotheBob, I am more than happy. And yes it costed me much more money to go to separates, but it is worth it. Besides, I don't care to much for radio, thus I did not need a tuner. My RX-1052 is a great unit, and I knew it I could sell it quickly. In fact, I did not even post it at ebay at all.

I was wondering what you decided on Skerdi, man congrats on the decision and we need to leave the upgrade questions to our resident 'Rotel expert' Wid...he's very knowledgable with the Rotel and usage.

Sounds like it worked out great for everybody!

... and by the way Rick (BrotherBob), thank you very much for all the advise on Rotel equipment...

Skerdi,

Congrats on the new Rotel gear.I had the RB 1070 in my system for a couple of weeks and do think I could have been very happy with it.That is one fine amp you have there.I had ordered the RB 1080 and the 1070 was on loan to me.I didn't get to do a side by side comparison with the two.If you are happy with the 1070 I see no need for an upgrade to the 1080.I went with as much power as my wallet (and wife) would allow.Also don't forget the RB 1070 is a bridgeable amp so later on if you feel the need for more power you could buy another and run two mono amps @ 360 watts per side.Of course you do have to have an 8 ohm speaker to do so.I forget if you have the M60s or not.

Thanks wid!!! I do have M60s. Later on, when I purchase a surround processor, I may find another use for my RB-1070. Until then, I will enjoy my music.

rb-1080 + rc-1070 + rcd-1072 + M60 is a great combo. However, i think M60 is still not a perfect match to Rotel. It's a little harsh to me. But, M60 with Denon gears is perfect. This is just my taste.

That is what I thought about my M60s when I got them first - harsh. However, after a week or so they sound much better, especially now that I have RC-1070/RB-1070 combo. I am not going to start arguing whether it is the speakers that broke in or my ears, but I really think they are much better now than they were 3 weeks ago, when I got them brand new.

And I don't know AudioFan, should I really spend an extra $300 and swap my RB-1070 for RB-1080? Is it worth it? I have 30 days time to do this.

I couldn't disagree more...but I guess that's what makes this hobby so fun. One man's gold is another man's garbage. I personally LOVE my Rotel and Axiom mix.

You say that as if their frequency response is actually different from each other.

They're both flat. I doubt either of them has a 3-6 dB recession/peak, so I'd say it's placeabo, not the amp causing this "brightness"

EVERYBODY HIT THE DECK! INCOMING!

Perhaps that was a bit harsh. Yet I still stand by my point.

A site I used to go to about audio compression, where lots of development for audio codecs(LAME MP3, ogg vorbis, MPC) was done required people to post ABX test(blind test) results each time they made a claim such as "this new version at this bitrate cuts the highs off too much on this song", because if it wasn't blind, it's impossible to not hear a difference. When you're looking for a difference between two different products that create identical sound your mind makes the difference for you. I was amazed with this: I consistently thought a WAV sounded different from another in the midrange detail when I tried to find a difference back and forth.

Point is, odd claims like that made without any kind of test, that are claimed wrong by measurements make me cry foul. ABX is a great thing.

I do believe you have a valid point.If a ss amp is of good quality it should not introduce a sonic signature.I do think if a person buys an amp like Rotel they are getting one of better build quality then the amps supplied in most recievers.When I play my music I do like to push it on occasion.This is where I think a person could tell the difference in a reciever and a good amp.Where the reciever starts to crap out on ya the amp will keep the sound nice and clean.Is it worth the extra dollars spent,to me I think it is.YMMV

I don't know if I totally agree. To me whenever I have gotten a nice amplifier be it home or car audio, the amp makes a fairly large impact at lower volumes. Bass just always seems to tighten and music is fuller and more dynamic. Perhaps it is a wattage thing where it is just that instantaneous demand that is supplied without effort compared to a lesser amp or receiver not being able to provide just that nanosecond of high wattage. . .. I don't know but I have noticed the difference at very low volumes on the same setup minus an upgraded amplifier.

Just some thoughts

Thasp,

Yes, ABX is indeed a wonderful thing. It's staggering the degree to which psychological bias, in the absence of blind comparisons, persuades us to believe we're hearing certain qualities. When ABX protocols (or similar scientific controls) are introduced, these differences evaporate.

That said, there are reasons why some audible differences occur with fairly casual listening comparisons. If you are comparing two receivers, and send the signals through the preamp/tone control sections, the latter will often introduce slight emphasis or de-emphasis right in the midrange, where the boost/cut section of the controls "hinge," which is exactly where our hearing is most acute.

These preamp sections are never perfectly flat, which may explain why some find the H/K units "warmer" than some other brands.

The only true test of the amp sections of receivers or integrated amplifiers would be to use the "amp-in" jacks on both receivers, equalize the playback levels, and then instantaneously switch between them.

Believe me, I used to be a believer (along with an old friend, Kevin Voecks, the designer of Revel Loudspeakers), until I participated in really controlled comparisons of various amplifiers at the NRC in Ottawa. Kevin and I also used to believe there were significant audible differences in CD players (the analog preamp output sections may have errors in frequency that could be audible). After lots of tests that really bruised our egos, we changed our position.

Certainly power output into lower-impedances may introduce audible differences, but so long as the amplifiers (I'm only discussing solid-state designs), are not driven into clipping or near-clipping (distortion rises quickly as an amplfier approaches clipping), distortion is less than 0.5%, and the frequency response measures flat, then well-designed solid-state amplifiers that I've compared do not exhibit audible differences.

Regards,

My world has been shaken! Alan says H/K receivers might be warm?!!!

Their heatsinks must suck.

I'm surprised preamps can do that: I thought that since it is a relatively mature technology, all the nonlinearities would be worked out by now. Interesting.

Since I've been playing around with the idea of using a pro grade soundcard as the source/preamp(M-Audio Audiophile 2496, etc) for a while now, I'm kind of interested in what kind of effect it'd have vs a seperate preamp. $100 for a source and preamp would be a steal.

Alan, you were a {gasp} believer?!!

Oh the interesting little snippets of information one learns.

chesseroo, don't tell me you didn't believe any wacky things about audio until you learned better.

Hell, from MY point of view... I was probably the worst of the worst. I remember my grandparents had a friend of the family that built custom speakers (during the wood-panelling party rec room era) build them some pretty impressive stereo speakers. First time I'd ever seen multiple drivers and porting in an enclosure - when I hit 13 and knew everything, I made a crack one day in front of him how some Monster speaker cable would probably make those things sing.

No one gives a dismissive cold stare like an old German craftsman. I thought he was just an a-hole until I got my start in pro audio.

After my grandparents moved into a home, I took them down. The craftsmanship was incredible (they were ply, though - no MDF in those days) - interior bracing throughout, and even with 25-30 year old driver technology, they sounded pretty damned nice.

I should actually save them from storage behind the furnace at my parents' place.

Bren R.

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don't tell me you didn't believe any wacky things about audio until you learned better.

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I came here first and learned from the best.
It pays to start info searching at the top.

I'm not sure what things i 'believed' in before researching audio hard core. Never really thought about it all that much to be honest.

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I'm not sure what things i 'believed' in before researching audio hard core.

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i know at one point, i thought Bose speakers sounded good! now, i'm just a idiot, not certifiably insane.


man, it took a lot to come clean about that....rather cathartic!