Looking for personal opinions on the:

SVS PB-12 Plus (500 watt 12")$1450 Cdn [delivered]
EP 500 (500 watt 12")$1430 Cdn "OR" $1285 fm factory [dlvd]
SVS 20-39 PC Plus (525 watt 12" tube)$1150 Cdn [delivered]

I know the EP 500 hasn't been out that long compared to the SVS subs. Reviews are sparse, so if anyone has opinions or actually heard or compared these I'd like to hear about. I did read a comparison between the EP350 and the SVS 16-46 PCI.

I am putting this sub in my HT system (M80, VP150, QS8's for side & rear). The room is about 4000 cu/ft.

http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pb12_plus.htm
http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pcplus_20-39.htm
http://www.axiomaudio.com/en-ca/epicenter500.html

Thanks for your opinions,
Troy

Oh that's a tough one. First, remember that you have to add brokerage fees to the SVS models, something like $75 CDN. Taxes apply equally to all.

I have not seen a single comparison yet so there's not much to go on except "analysis" which is always dangerous.

- cylinders are always cheaper to build so the PC+ is always going to be slightly better "bass for the buck" than the nice box subs like EP500 and PB-12+

- power is about the same between them all... cabinet size is bigger on the PC+ and there is no EQ so best guess is that the PC+ will do a slightly better job of filling a really large area than the EP500

- SVS bass response droops as you get below 30 Hz (not much but you see it in the SVS plots); EP500 is ruler flat. Two schools of thought on this -- pro-SVS is that room gain will correct for the droop in response giving you essentially flat system response, pro-EP500 is that ear sensitivity drops in the deep bass so what you want is flat anechoic response then room gain steps in to give you flatter perceived response

- EP500 has the DSP built in so there is the potential for all kinds of cool things in the future via firmware upgrade (but no mention or commitment from Axiom for any of that)

I would give Axiom a call and talk to them about sub vs. room size etc...; 4000 ft3 is fairly big.

Just guessing, but I think you will find EP500 vs. SVS Px+ to be a much closer competition than was the EP350 vs. 16-46 PCI (that seems like an odd match, doesn't it, I would think the 25-31 would be a much more relevent comparison).

This bad boy shouldn't be overlooked if you're in the subwoofer market.

Yes, I would agree with the comparison between the 350 and the 16-46 as 2 different styles of sound. The 350 is probably a lot more accurate and tight verses the less accurate but boomy tall version of the SVS.

That is one of the reasons I was comparing to the mid size tower of the 20-39 Plus. It may be the middle ground between the 500 and the 16-46 PC Plus(using the 350 review comparison between the others)It would be a bit tighter but still with some of the lighter side of the boom.

About room size, SVS also mentioned moving up to the PB12-2(2 x 12" plus drivers). That would be comparable to the EP600 in price, not sure about the sound. I replied to this suggestion that we were nearing $2000 cdn. That is more then I am willing to spend. The tech spec from SVS suggested checking out PSB and Paradigm up in Canada.

On one other comparison, Axium has a great warranty on the rest of their speakers, but 1 year on the subs. SVS has a 3 year. Chances are most problems should occur soon after purchase but, who's to say. I like the fact a product is backed up confidently with a better warranty. I don't think this says it is better in all cases though, just because it has a longer warranty period

I am price wise going to have to live with a sub it seems may not be enough for my rec room. I initially thought 500 watts and a 12" driver was going to be enough. I listen to everything music wise and really enjoy movies, biggest reason for the surround purchase.

thanks for your thoughts,

Troy

As far as the HSU. I like it. When comparing to 350 watt subs like the EP350 and the SVS PCI subs it stands up well. I guess it is my room size that is forcing me to go bigger, within my $$ limits. I have thought about 2 of these in the room but that really puts the price again beyond my limit.

Too many good choices out there!
Not a bad place to be I guess,
troy

When looking at wattage, the only way to compare is if all things within the sub are equal....different configurations, electronics, and drivers have different efficiencies.

That said, if all things are equal, to get a 3dB increase in SPL, you have to effectively double wattage.

On top of all that, at normal listening levels, you can not assume that the subs sound the same.

At 4000cu. ft., all the subs mentioned should be able to handle the room. Also remember, Hsu has a Canadian distributor.

Have you talked to Axiom yet ? Wouldn't hurt to give them a call.

Just to be clear, ANY of the subs you mentioned will be more than enough for very dramatic HT performance... you just might find that when everyone is out and you are cranking up the volume as high as you want, there might be a few seconds in a few movies where you need to back off just a few dB so the sub doesn't groan.

It just occurred to me that the EP500 has some DSP smarts to adaptively back off when you are about to overload driver or amp, so you might actually find that you can get as much or more effective volume out of the EP500 as the SV. Not sure...

For a reference point, my PSB 6i (12", 200W, relatively small cabinet) is running happily in my brother in law's 8000 ft3 basement (not counting the rooms it opens in to) and it has FAR more power than they need.

Any of the subs you mentioned would be fantastic -- your question was "which would be best" and that's a tough one to answer.

HSU's Canadian affiliate. Who would that be? I know bash amps are used in different sub companies.

Yes, I did talk to Axium and they suggested the EP 500 for this size of room, Actually the 350, 500 and 600 would work, but different peolpe listen at different levels. Saying that they all can be used in this room size. I figure bigger can't hurt you as long as you can afford it. The 600 would probably be best, but the 500 is more in my price range. Possibly placing it closer to the seating area may help.

I am sure that you could find differences in each sub, each with it's own advantage and disadvantages.

decisions, decisions!!

Thanks again,
Troy

Here is a thread with information on Hsu in Canada:
http://hsuresearch.com/forum/showthread.php?t=964&highlight=distributor

A call to Hsu will probably get you more info.

If you've got a large room and you like tight bass and SPL's then how about putting two 10"er's in the room? Put one by the couch for the rumble effect. The SVS sight when talking about doubling up on subs estimates a 6db increase (seems a little optomistic to me, but I'm no expert). To keep to a reasonable budget you could go with two HSU STF-2's at $550 cdn a piece HSU Canada . I seem to recall from a previous thread BrenR mentioned there is a dealer in Winnipeg. If not, you can contact the HSU cdn distributor and ask for the nearest dealer. If nothing is close they may make you the same offer they made me when I was looking for a sub. They were very nice and said they'd ship it to me (Edmonton) for an extra $10.

You mentioned you were more comfortable with a manufacturer that has a long warrantee. I don;t think you'll do much better than HSU, the website states "Warranty: 7 years on the woofer, 2 years on the electronics, parts and labor included".

Happy research and shopping - Paul

EEK! Not to interrupt the HSU sales pitch, but I heard the SVS 20-39 (not the PC+) and it was anything but boomy.
Since you're in Canada and will get hit by those import duties with the SVS and HSU (what happened to NAFTA?) it seems like the Axiom EP500 is a no-brainer. I've never heard it but it sure seems like a fine piece of equipment.
That's my $.02.

Who said the SVS was boomy?

Just to clear up one or two things:
First, i think Troy may be referring to the review i posted on the EP350 and SVS PCi back here for the comparison b/w the two subs.
I agree that a PCi 20-39 would have been a better matchup against the EP350, but that was noted in the review. Unfortunately the SVS owner did not want a lesser model and hence the 16-49 was all i had to audition.
I do wish he had at least bought the Plus version though. I hear the driver is much better than the pulp cone of the lesser models.

Second, there are no duties on these speakers coming to Canada, only taxes and shipping. Since taxes come from Axiom as well, the only difference in speaker price comes from shipping. There can be a brokerage fee but it is usually rather insignificant (we are talking about units over 1k already so another thirty or forty bucks is irrelevant) depending on the shipping company. NAFTA is in effect for loudspeakers and i'm sure the folks at Axiom are happy with such arrangements. Keeps the prices even lower for the Americans buying Axiom.

Third, wattage is a hard thing to put into perspective. Although the idea of doubling wattage might add x dB of sound applies, it also depends on the build quality of the amp section. I've opened the amp section of the EP350 before and its not particularly stunning. I had a larger amp section in a 10 yr old Technics bookshelf system rated at a whopping 30w/ch over 2 channels. The EP350 amp does the job, but compared to the beefier components in the newer EP500/600 amp sections, it is rather weak. The flat curve idea is also researched by the likes of SVS and hence toting the new EP series as 'better' in this regard is debateable at this point.
Room will still be the final factor on observed frequency response.
All of these subs are still excellent choices and each will do a very good job, of that i have no doubt.

Lastly, there is a Hsu dealer in the Peg now. I believe Bren bought his at American Hifi.

Chess, I clicked on the link you posted but the curves it showed (for 20-39 and 16-46) DID have that gentle rolloff between 30 and 40 hz that I mentioned. The EP500 is very flat in the same region, ie is effectively 3-4 dB higher at the 20-25 Hz range.

Is that "better" ? Well, that's where the debate comes in. On balance I would argue that the EP500 response is more likely to be the most pleasing, but there are real good arguments for both sides..

both companies use EQing in different forms to get their desired anechoic curves.

It would be nice to know what EQing was done to get the curves, because you usually can not do any EQing without giving something up.

Good point... you don't need a DSP to EQ, do you.

Now this is why I post my questions here. You guys provide insightful responses I can build from. Someday I might figure this stuff out!

Now where are all those EP500 owners. Looking to hear from your personal in home experience.

Thanks again for your posts,
Troy

In reply to:

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The EP500 is very flat in the same region, ie is effectively 3-4 dB higher at the 20-25 Hz range.

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Actually the EP500 b/w 22-35Hz also varies by about 3dB. The EP600 varies by even more.
However the nose dive of the curve does not start until beyond 15Hz for the PCUltra 16 while the sharp dive begins at about 18Hz and 20Hz for the EP600 and 500 respectively.
Whether a consumer will notice these slight differences, i'm not sure, but the change in volume is at a level humans can perceive. With the notes being so low on the frequency scale, it is hard to say whether it would be picked out consistently.

All these subs are excellent in their performance. Price and aesthetics are primary remaining factors in my opinion. Personally i think both these options are overkill for music unless one enjoys that dance club beat or runs the units at about 10% gain.

I remember a thread like this a long time ago that got me in all sorts of trouble so I will stay out of this one...........as I'm already on the verge reading parts of this thread.

With that being said, I will throw out two things. First, SVS subs are not boomy! I have heard a ton of SVS subs in different shapes and sizes and they are not boomy. For that matter neither is HSU.................Ok I'm done now.

SVS and HSU are a great bang for the buck! All the glowing reviews across the net from not only owners but third party reviewers can't all be wrong.

Agreed. I don't think any of the subs mentioned in this thread are innately "boomy". I think any of them can be made to sound boomy by poor placement and poor calibration / level setting, though.

Yep...I've heard two different SVS subs, and three different Hsu subs, and none of them are "boomy". They certainly sound different from eachother, but "boomy" doesn't come to mind at all.

Hey all!

First off, let it be said...I LOVE my M80s, VP-150 and QS-8s. Second, let it be known...I have NEVER heard an Axiom sub, but I have heard MANY other subs (and most were pretty good ones!)

I own the dreaded SVS 16-46 PCi. It is not overkill. I have had it in several different rooms in my house...big and small, open and closed. I EQ using a BFD. I have been able to get a flat room response within +-1 db in every room I have put it in. (takes quite an effort and a lot of math!) I do NOT run hot. My sub is adjusted to output the same as my other speakers...a flat response sounds a little lifeless at first, but after a bit I concluded that lack of overpowering bass energy alows for a clearer overall music experience.

My SVS is now in a small (11'-4" X 16'-0" X 7'-0") sealed room. It is turned WAAAY down to output only as much as the rest of the system. The sub plays very clean, flat, and loud without a hint of strain. With many music recordings, it is either boomy or nonexistent. This is due to the recording EQ done at mastering, not the sub. On good recordings, the bass is natural and well balanced. On well recorded movies, the sub quietly sits back and produces faint bass notes as required until called upon to unleash its beastly fury.

Yup, my 16-46 PCi looks like a black hot water heater covered in felt. It sits unobtrusively in a dark corner of the room and produces sounds that cause EVERY newcomer to our theater to gasp and smile, then ask what the heck is creating the sound.

It IS that good. I would buy the same PCi again. The PC+ might be overkill in a room my size, but the PCi, at the $599 price I bought it for a few years ago, is an absolute steal.

On a final note, I also love the Hsu subs, but I honestly think that the SVS subs, at the same price point, are a better value. Just my $0.0175.

Bill

VOICE COILS & DRIVERS:: If anyone can clarify the differences in these, I would appreciate it. Can a 2" voice coil actually exceed a 3" voice coil capacity, and what is a dual 3" voice coil?

EP500/600: 3" dual voice coil
SVS PCI : 2 to 2.5" voice coil
SVS Plus : 2" voice coil that exceeds electromotive capacity of typical 3" voice coils
SVS Ultra: 3" aluminum voice coil

Between the EP500/600 they both get as low as 16 or 18HZ. The SVS tubes have the option of going down lower to 20/16/12 HZ through the use of plugs. They say you lose top end to go down low. Now, where do the Axiums stand in regards to low and top end. Do the Axiums get both without giving anything up?

Thanks,
Troy

My 20-39 has made me very happy - I didn't have a need to keep hunting for anything else! I haven't heard any Hsu, (or the Axioms for that matter) but even the SVS guys will tell you you can't go wrong there either.

The SVS is tuned to, for instance, 20hz in the case of the 20-39. It has three ports. By plugging one port, the tuning drops to 16hz, and by plugging two, down to 12.

(The 16-46 is already tuned to 16, with no plugs.)

The result is, necessarily, a drop in output across the board, something like 3db with each plug.

Having said that - my 20-39PC+ has no plugs in it, and can be felt shaking my floor down to 10hz (this is using a demo disc with tracks starting at 6hz). I can't really "hear" it til 14 or 16. And the subsonic filter prevents it from really thumping until you reach the tuning point.

This one goes to eleven.

Don't take my word for it but through some of my latest correspondence with Axium;

Axium is now offering:::

"5 YEAR" "PARTS & LABOUR" on their subs.

From my research that has not been matched anywhere. This to me expresses their confidence in their product to perform as stated. With their new technological advances, it will not allow you to mistakingly take the sub beyond its capabilities. For guys like me, that is a great design feature.

I was having a tough time deciding what sub to buy as many great sub manufacturers were thrown out there, but I came down to the SVS and the Axium. The others like HSU don't have any larger then 350 watt and I have a 4000 cu/ft area to fill so wanted to make sure the sub could do that without taking it to the limits. The SVS had a better warranty, 2 year, so I was leaning that way as the prices were comparable. This is due to shipping charges as SVS does not include shipping charges in their price.

Now, in my opinion, I was wobbling back and forth between these 2. I was driving my wife crazy with the amount of time I was researching this new HT system. I didn't want to make my decision without fully uncovering every rock out there.

When Axium came out with the "5 YEAR PARTS & LABOUR", I stopped wobbling and fell completely over, bruises and all. It made my decision a no brainer. They built a product that they are confident enough in, to back it up with one of the best, if not the best warranties out there. This warranty matches the one they have on the rest of their line, and we know how we feel about them. "Twice the speaker with half the price".

Now don't just take my word on it, check it out yourself. I am sure the website will be updated shortly.

All I can say now is, I can't wait for the EP600 to show up at the doorstep. The wife might not say it on the forum but, she thanks those fine folks at Axium for helping me make my decision. Home theatre heaven!

Troy

I must thank Ajax for correcting my ongoing spelling error in this thread. I have been spelling the companies name wrong throughout. Axiom, I got it now. Thanks Ajax. My apologies if anyone took offence. I was paying more attention the the numbers then the letters!

Troy

Awesome. I'm envious.

>>All I can say now is, I can't wait for the EP600 to show up at the doorstep.

Cool. A sub like that with a 5 year warranty is hard to beat. Congratulations !!

There's nothing wrong with spelling phonetically.
Some nights, its how Ken gets anything comprehensible typed.

That reminds me of when I was in college and taking math ans physics courses. I misspelled theorem as "theorum" until I discovered my mistake during my junior year.

I still think my original spelling looks better.

Hey Chess... when are you and I getting together to compare (speakers, sickos!) and wanna buy my STF-2 off of me? Ignore my message in another thread where I state it's popped a screw!

Bren R.

Oi! Mi spel gud.

In reply to:

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Hey Chess... when are you and I getting together to compare (speakers, sickos!) and wanna buy my STF-2 off of me? Ignore my message in another thread where I state it's popped a screw!

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I'm up for auditioning anytime. I would suggest though that we do this at my place. The M3s are considerably easier to put into a car. My M60s would need their own seatbelts which means i would have to remove the baby seat first...

Perhaps we can borrow a screw from the EP350 for your STF2 and see if the sound changes hmm?
Or we can go right crazy and swap amp sections.
Ooooh.
Nasty.
Think that would invalidate the warranties?

winterpeg was over a couple of weekends ago. I think he's sold on Axioms, but i could be wrong. You know how i try to push people on those Monitor Audios and all...

Bren have you called Hsu about your sub being under warranty.Doesn't seem like you have had it all that long.

Your right, there is nothing wrong with spelling phonetically until someone points it out.
On the note of system purchases, after seeing your setup Chess, I new it would fit perfectly. Thanks again.
I certainly did put my order in for the "Axioms". When you guys are done your speaker comparisons we'll have to get together at my place as well, maybe we can try out your friends SVS sub, the EP600 and Bren can bring along his HSU. It might have to wait until I've finished the yard work (new yard). It will probably keep me busy all summer long. Expect an invite though.

Troy

Troy, you can put the thumb screws to Bren. He's busy alot, and with good reason. That MTS Centre is nothing w/o Bren!

And Bren, Troy picks some excellent wine. Drinker or not, even the labels are nice to look at.
Perhaps next time he will sample the homemade bread.