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#99122 - 06/16/05 10:58 PM 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
A comment was made on a different thread on this board about not running your receiver/ amplifier without a load (speaker). It is my strong opinion that any "good" audio amplifier should be designed with both short circuit and open circuit protection just as a matter of fact. Operation without a load (speaker) should cause no problem, period. Of course, we all know that there are well designed receivers/ amplifiers and then there are others that are not so well designed. So, maybe, the comment errs on the side of safety.

Anyhow, it made me wonder what you folks with 7 channel receivers/ amplifiers do with the unused channels if you are only using 5 speakers???

1. Has anyone tried to turn off the 2 unused channels? Can you even do it?

2. Has anyone tried to terminate the output in some sort of load?

3. For those of you who eventually went to 7 speakers, did the two unused channels work when you hooked up the speakers?

What say the tribe?
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The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99123 - 06/16/05 11:07 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
On my speaker setup, I have the back surrounds set to none. I assume this works for speaker connections and preouts. On the monos, if a speaker is off, the amp goes to standby. Also load conditions must not be a problem because the amps are set to music on and the stay on for 10-15 minutes after I power down the receiver.

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#99124 - 06/16/05 11:15 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7395
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
On my HK 7200 I have the option of using the second set of rear speaker inputs as part of the 7.1 system or to power a set of speakers in a separate room. Just have to make a change in the menu.
I'm running a 5.1 set-up. The receiver doesn't sense any speaker connections for the extra rears and sends no signal. There is a graphic on the front of the receiver which shows which channels are running. The speaker icons blink when switching between sound formats (DD5.1 to DTS) because there is no signal for a second.

Unless I move to a larger room, those second inputs will not be used. But I like having that option.
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#99125 - 06/17/05 12:24 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Here's one BIG difference between tube and solid state amps. You CAN'T run a tube amp without a load ... for more than a few seconds. Power tubes will 'run away' stuff will fry.
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#99126 - 06/17/05 12:29 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7395
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Thanks 2x6. That's one thing I make sure to do if I'm switching speakers between amps. Don't want to burn anything up.
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"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose

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#99127 - 06/18/05 12:35 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
2X6: I still maintain that ANY audio amplifier that doesn't have open circuit/ short circuit protection is poorly designed. Doesn't matter if it is tube or solid state.

For the price that some tube manufacturers are charging you ought to be able to run them all day, shorted, open or at rated load.

Just one man's strong opinion.
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#99128 - 06/18/05 03:49 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Anyone here bought the new Denon 4806 yet?????
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#99129 - 07/02/05 04:51 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Anyone here bought any new amplifier lately??

Bug excepted.

LOL!!
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The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99130 - 07/03/05 12:44 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
There are many tube amp circuit designs. I don't know about OTL amps though I hear they sound terrific, but the tube amps I've had all require a load to avoid trouble.

I think sound quality should be the overriding design goal of a tube amp. I've had tube amps for years and have never come close to driving one without speakers on line. I guess once you know not to it's simple. I'd agree that solid state amps should be idiot proof given the mass market target.
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#99131 - 07/03/05 04:25 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7395
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
In reply to:

Anyone here bought any new amplifier lately??




I don't know if this counts, seeing how this is a 7 channel amp thread, but I've been running an Odyssey Audio Khartago amp to power the main channels in my HT set-up. I've had it for about three weeks now. Still going through the manufacturer's recommended "break-in" period. Ran it for two channels the other day. I'll give it another spin tomorrow with some CDs.

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"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose

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#99132 - 07/03/05 09:09 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Can you post a link?
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#99133 - 07/03/05 12:49 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7395
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
The website is outdated. Some of the products are not listed.
odyssey audio

Here is a site that has pictures of the khartago amp.
http://show.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/shm.pl?0&1&cont&Brooklynaudio&home&&&

And over at Audio Circle there is a whole forum dedicated to the manufacturer.
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"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose

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#99134 - 07/03/05 01:13 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
I think an interesting 7 channel (or 5 channel) project for a second HT system would use 4 x $20 T-Amps (8 channels) and a dedicated processor. A nice Sony TA E9000ES 5 channel processor (SUPERB sound quality!) can be had for $300-500 on ebay with 3 T-Amps and some power supplies and some M22s or M3s/VP100/150s up front would be superb - I think (haven't tried it myself)

Another thought, if you have a 2 channel amp or a 3 channel, seems to me that the T Amp would be perfect for the side/back surround channels.
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#99135 - 07/03/05 01:38 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7395
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Yeah, but then I'd have to buy another tv. . .which I may end up doing. Looking to move pretty soon and will have an extra room to play with. Just gives me a good excuse to buy more toys. Looks like there are quite a few mods available for the T amp, and, let's face it, for a beginner DIYer a $20 amp is the perfect project to work on.
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"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose

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#99136 - 07/03/05 10:29 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Thanks for the links. I recall going to the Odyssey website. I thought it strange to rate an audio amp from 1 to 500,000 Hz. 20,000 Hz is probably beyone the hearing of most people.

Oh well!!!!
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99137 - 07/04/05 03:28 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
Odyssey has some interesting stuff. Wish their web site was up to date.

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#99138 - 07/04/05 04:35 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Any manufacturer that specs an amplifier from 1 Hz to 500,000 Hz is missing the boat, in my strong opinion. Either they are grossly overspecing their amps or they are trying to appeal to those who know little about real audio requirements.

In today's market, not having your website up to date can be the "kiss of death." There is really no excuse for that. Period!

I ordered a SVS subwoofer today. It is the SV20-39PC Plus. After re-reading the specifications and considering the power/ price, I decided to go with the little better unit. I'm not sure that I would ever be able to tell the difference between it and the baseline, but who knows. For a couple hundred bucks, it just wasn't worth the risk!

Happy 4th of July to ALL!!!!!!!
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99139 - 07/05/05 12:40 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7395
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Congrats on the new sub. Kinda fitting getting the sub on the Fourth of July.

As for the Odyssey website, I think it's in the process of getting updated. Klaus is a busy guy. One of the strengths, depending on how you look at it, is that you need to call to place an order. Klaus will give you recommendations based on your equipment and wants/needs. I don't know what to say about the extended frequency response. For me, I've never based my decisions on specs alone. But that's just me. I know we can't hear anything above 20,000. I know I've seen some amps rated up to 30,000 Hz, which is still out of hearing range. Yeah, the 500,000 Hz is a huge number, but I didn't pay much attention to it. Maybe it will have that whole Spinal Tap "it goes to 11" type effect on some people. Who knows.

Rat, you could give Klaus a call and ask him about the specs--it may be worth it, maybe not. Man, it feels like I'm trying to defend my purchase. Thanks alot, you guys. Grrr.

I just know that the amp is capable of driving my speakers and playing music. For me, that's what it all boils down to in the end. Plus the amp isn't a mini-heater like my H/K and tube amp. A major plus in these summer months in So Cal.

Also, when I was shopping for a sub I looked hard at the SVS line. I knew I'd be happy with the entry level line, but I knew I'd have to start with the PC Plus or Ultra to quell the little "what-if" gremlin who hides in my subconscious. In the end, I went with the Hsu VTF MkII. I saved myself fifty bucks in shipping by driving the twenty minutes to go pick it up!
_________________________
***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose

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#99140 - 07/05/05 10:25 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
No need to "defend" your purchase. If you're happy, just enjoy them!!!!!

I think that I am just going to wait and see what happens in the pre/ processor and receiver worlds. Only the Denon 4806 peaks my interest. I heard that Denon may be coming out with a revised 3805. If it has internet upgrading and HDMI switching, I may consider getting it and then big 5 channel amp. I have thought about using a receiver as just a pre/ processor and forgetting about its internal amplifiers. It may actually be cost effective.
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99141 - 07/05/05 11:07 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
Congrats on that sub purchase. Can't wait to hear your reviews.

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#99142 - 07/05/05 12:16 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
I went back and re-read the SVS information a couple more times, and then some of the comments on this board, and then a couple of the reviews.

Maybe I'm getting more subwoofer than I can use or can notice, but, at least, I'll be satisfied (I hope?).


Edited by ratpack (07/05/05 12:18 PM)
_________________________
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#99143 - 07/05/05 09:04 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
You may be getting more in terms of louder. It's the "lower" part that I think will impress you. You probably won't use more than 25-35% of volume control. Get your best action dvd ready for the trial.

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#99144 - 07/06/05 10:52 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
That's got to be U-571 with all of the depth charges going off!!!!

But, I probably won't watch it again until I get the new HD TV and that may be next month.
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99145 - 07/09/05 08:49 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
SVS arrived yesterday and it sounds fine. I'm going to listen quite a bit this weekend. Wonder how the NASCAR will sound?

By the way, I saw some separate amps where you could buy anywhere from 1 to 7 and put them in a common enclosure. I wanted to go back and look at them again, but can't remember where I saw them.

Help anyone? What was the brand?

I've been looking at so many receivers and separates, that they are all becoming a blur.
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The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99146 - 07/09/05 11:44 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
This may be the one you want to look at. You might have to call or email about getting 2 to 5 modules.



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#99147 - 07/09/05 12:56 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17741
Loc: NoVA
That thing is so wicked cool. I wish I could afford one. Sigh...
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I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#99148 - 07/09/05 11:27 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
No, Bug, that's not the one.

Thanks anyhow.
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99149 - 07/11/05 12:29 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
JohnK Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10362
Bernard, just in case you're running out of receivers to consider, if you haven't read about the new Pioneer 74TXVi supposed to be out next month, of course it'll blow away all that came before it.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#99150 - 07/11/05 12:38 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
richeydog Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 1201
Loc: Fresno, CA
Wow John, she looks like an animal! Very interesting info. Thanks for the link.
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AV123 Refugee - X-LS Encore, X-Voce, X-Omnis, Elt-Dpa's
Denon AVR-591
Magnavox NB500MGX BDP


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#99151 - 07/11/05 07:20 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Thanks John!

This new wave of audio receivers is very exciting! They appear to have the features that I am looking for in my next audio purchase.

Unless my Kenwood dies, I think that my best bet is to wait a little while longer and keep up with all the new gear.

Watch, Denon will introduce a 3806 or 3807 or 3808 this Fall.
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99152 - 07/11/05 10:18 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
The upconversion on the Pioneer is a great feature.

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#99153 - 07/11/05 03:47 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Why would one want to upconvert in a receiver?

From what I have read, you would want to do it at the DVD or TV. Some say do it at the DVD, others at the TV. I think that it really depends on the quality of your electronics at either the DVD or TV.
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99154 - 07/11/05 04:21 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
<<Perhaps most exciting of all at these price points, they also include not only component video switching, but also 2-in, 1-out HDMI switching and conversion of all analog video inputs (composite, S-video, and component video) to HDMI.>>

Sorry. I mean conversion as to composite all the way to HDMI. You can plug different video sources into your receiver and only have one ouput to your tv.

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#99155 - 07/11/05 04:42 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Sorry, my bad!

I thought that you were talking about video format conversion. I have been reading a lot about that lately and had it on my mind. Here is a pretty good article on HDMI.

HDMI
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The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99156 - 07/11/05 07:54 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
I'd like to be able to use HDMI but my plasma is component only.

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#99157 - 07/11/05 10:25 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Well, I'm not sure that you would actually see any difference. Some of the component connections are super.
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The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99158 - 07/12/05 12:12 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
When I had Voom, you could see a huge difference in the picture quality of 1080 over 480. It practically jumps off the screen. Too bad about Voom.

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#99159 - 07/12/05 07:31 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
My bad again, I was talking about the cables, not the picture quality. No doubt going from 480 to 1080 would be a GREAT difference in picture quality. I've seen the two, and, boy, what a difference.

But, a "good" component output to input connection compared to a HDMI connection, I believe, would be difficult to discern, at least from what I have read.
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99160 - 07/12/05 02:42 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
The rating of 1 Hz to 500 kHz is the rated power bandwidth. In all amplifiers there is phase distortion present within its rated bandwidth. That distortion is audible. When an amplifier is designed with a larger bandwidth the phase distortion is shifted to a higher frequency. The larger the power bandwidth, the further the phase distortion is shifted from the audioble range. Therefore, from the standpoint of phase distortion, the larger the bandwidth, the better. One of my former amplifiers (Adcom GFA-535II) had a bandwidth of up to 150 kHz.

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#99161 - 07/12/05 04:29 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16259
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Bruce, the audibility and significance of phase distortion is a highly contentious subject, and current research downlplays its importance. See Daisuke Koya's conclusion to his master's thesis titled "Aural Phase Distortion Detection."
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#99162 - 07/12/05 04:52 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
A linear amplifier is supposed to be just that, a linear amplifier. Phase and amplitude distortion present problems.

If phase distortion exists, it is my opinion that its effect should be contained in the Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) numbers.

Comments?
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The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99163 - 07/12/05 05:07 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
Wow. Lots of theoretical mathematics! I agree with you. That is one of the reasons why there are so many different types of speakers and amplifiers, etc. out there. Not everyone hears the same. It is highly subjective. If one looks at the output of a tube amplifier versus solid state, some people prefer the sound of the tube which typically has a lot more distortion. It is the type of distortion that is "pleasing" to some ears. I think that some people can hear the phase distortion, albeit subtley. They may use the term "more transparent" to describe an amp with a large frequency bandwidth. I know there are lots of people who don't hear the difference.


I guess what it comes down to is that a lot of manufacturers use the numbers game to play into marketing. For some people, the numbers seem to be a significant factor. Others don't care and are happy with a HTIB. Then there are those who can hear the difference. Those are the most unfortunate as they end up shelling out big bucks for what they perceive sounds better.

I would always caution someone who asks "what is the best ...?" with respect to home audio equipment. While someone can be given a myriad of options that may sound great, it comes down to what sounds good to their ears. Perhaps the best advice comes down to what their budget can afford? That is where I find Axioms great due to the "bang for the buck".

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#99164 - 07/12/05 05:46 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16259
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Well said, Bruce. But perhaps I should first say welcome to the boards. Have you been a lurker long?
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#99165 - 07/12/05 06:43 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6246
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Amen, Peter. Welcome Bruce. I find myself spending a lot of time on other forums hammering away at the point that "better" is a subjective conclusion. My "better" may be your "worse."
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"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#99166 - 07/12/05 10:35 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7395
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Yes, well said Bruce. And welcome to the boards! Lots of different people will hear lots of different sounds out of audio gear. Since this hobby is so subjective there are a lot of flame wars going on. Healthy, friendly debate is much more preferable.
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"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose

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#99167 - 07/12/05 10:50 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
sssutherland Offline
local

Registered: 02/19/05
Posts: 243
Loc: Ventura, CA
I love the battles concerning cables and discernable audio differences and amplifiers with their bright/warm sounds etc etc. I love that there are people so far on each side of the fence. People that are sure that they can hear a difference and people that are sure that nobody can hear a difference. That is what makes life fun. Being different. Look at political opinions, religious etc. I have always hated that people say, "we can talk about anything as long as it is not politics or religion" or whatever highly debatable topic, but that is bull. It is so fun to hear the spectum of ideas and thoughts and logic. The science arguments the faith arguments the I can hear subtle differences arguments etc etc.

As opposed to idle chit chat these things are acutally interesting to talk about. Although I would have to agree that there is a way to debate that is friendly and understanding and not negative and belittling.

Just my thoughts. . .
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Where are you Axiom owners?

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#99168 - 07/12/05 11:04 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7395
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
No doubt, sssutherland. I like reading about this stuff, too. It just seems driven by ego and machismo more often than not. They are kinda fun to read in a voyeuristic kind of way.

Besides, it'd be boring if everyone had the same opinion. . .
_________________________
***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose

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#99169 - 07/13/05 07:23 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Something to consider: when it comes to electronics, there are engineering principles and laws of physics; when it comes to listening enjoyment, there are opinions.

The two are NOT the same!!!

Fact not Fiction.

Enjoy your audio gear!!!
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99170 - 07/13/05 07:41 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
F107plus5 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 2034
Loc: Fla. Orig. Mich.
Even within the relatively narrow confines of the Axiom world there are strong opinions!!

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#99171 - 07/13/05 10:31 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
LOL!!

This is true!!
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#99172 - 07/13/05 11:57 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
Just got clued in recently. Funny thing is that I have only been introduced to Axiom audio fairly recently through a review comparing them to Monitor Audio speakers. It is a shame that I ended up purchasing a pair of Monitor Audio GR-60s prior to finding Axiom speakers. I will, however be purchasing Axioms to complete the surround sound system.

I came across the board this week "by accident" researching 7-channel amplifiers.

What I would like to buy and what would pass the WAF are two completely different points of view. It has to be good quality but affordable. My options have so far included Anthem PVA-7, Adcom GFA-7607 and Rotel RMB-1048 (low power but a well-built room will compensate). The trick is finding a good source where there is not so much mark up. I was also looking at the Rotel RSP-1068 and Anthem AVM-30 (does not pass WAF due to price).

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#99173 - 07/13/05 12:13 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Bruce: do you have any requirements for HDMI switching, or inclination to want/ use internet upgrading, or any use of USB/ IEEE Firewire ports?

If so, you might want to consider one of the newer receivers with separate mono-block amplifiers for the fronts and center.

Bug has done something like this and I sure am thinking about the new Yahama RX-V4600 receiver with three Outlaw 200 W amps. Haven't totally made up my mind yet, but a combination like that sure looks nice.
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#99174 - 07/13/05 12:14 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
I have one friend who has no idea about stereo equipment, but valued my opinions and tastes enough to purchase similar equipment. He told me he could not hear the difference between certain speakers (sometimes I think I envy him for that...it would certainly save on the bank account). Regardless, he ended up buy the same brand of speakers (at the time I had Mirage M3-si speakers and he purchased the M7-si). I had moved from a house to an apartment with my wife so the M3-si (135lbs each) had to go into storage at her parents place (for 3 years!). In that time, my buddy wanted to buy my speakers from me and it wasn't until we moved into another house (small at 960 sq ft) where I realized that space was too much of a premium. I ended up selling my M3-si speakers to my buddy (they were just broken in!) in order to "downsize" to the Monitor Audio GR-60s.

He wanted the speakers only because they matched his existing speakers in form (the new Mirage speakers were a different build and shape that were not to his taste).

I loved the sound of the Mirage for two-channel music since they created a pseudo-surround experience which made you feel like you were at a concert. However, after a while you realize that, while it sounds great, it is a very diffuse sound and not localized. That is, I found it detracted from the surround sound experience with multiple speakers. I decided to go back to conventional forward firing speakers.
So here is a perfect example of one person's opinion.

I have another friend who loves his Mirage speakers (uses Rotel equipment) and will not go to a surround system because he is happy with the pseudo-surround type of sound.

To each his (or her) own. That being said, I too also like to hear discussions about different equipment and people's experiences. There is always a better mousetrap out there but with so many different opinions to draw on, it can help one to narrow down the choices (ever pick up an equipment guide from Audio magazine -HUGE! - so many numbers to look at).

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#99175 - 07/13/05 12:20 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7395
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
In reply to:

That being said, I too also like to hear discussions about different equipment and people's experiences.




Bruce, to make things easier just send me your MA GR 60s, and I will post a review.

Don't worry, you'll get them back.


Eventually. . .
_________________________
***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose

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#99176 - 07/13/05 12:34 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
I have considered HDMI switching. At least, my yet-to-be-built media room will have conduit in place to accept cabling. The new Anthem AVM-30 (soon to be released) will support HDMI (as well as an increased price tag). That is my ideal but at $4000 Cdn, it is too pricey.

I had purchased one of Yamaha's top of the line receivers once (Prologic model) and was disappointed with the sound (having come from an Adcom 535II). It is my understanding that Yamaha has come a long way with their processing and they are not dull and lifeless as they used to be. Unfortunately Ihave not had a chance to audition one of their new offerings (a little gun-shy perhaps after my first experience).

I have been hearing some good things about the Outlaw amps. I am not sure if my GR-60s will like being paired up with one but the value is definitely there.

That brings to mind another point of my own experience. Having demoed some equipment at my local "audiophile" shop, I listened once to the Anthem AVM-30, PVA-5 and the Paradigm reference speaker system. I was blown away. To me, that was what home theater should sound like. I brought my wife in a couple of weeks later to listen to the same set up however they replaced the Paradigm reference with Monitor Audio Silver series speakers. I was not as impressed. I had come to the conclusion that the only offerings from Monitor Audio that I do like are the Gold series. However, the point was to impress on my wife the difference and impact that really nice equipment can have on the home theater experience. She was impressed but I don't think she approved of the price tag - followed up with a quick, "that's nice dear, can we go now?").

The sales rep even mentioned how one customer had replaced his amplifier with an Adcom and his wife (who did not normally care about home theater) noticed and did not like the difference. When he immediately replaced it with the Anthem amp, she loved the sound.

In my past experience, the Adcom 535-II was a VERY nice amp (I think it was only 55W per channel). In stepping up to the 545 or 555 amps, they were a little more "harsh" (Danger Will Robinson - opinion alert) sounding. I stuck with the lower power and nicer sound.

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#99177 - 07/13/05 12:43 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
They are indeed nice speakers.

I think I am biased. When it comes to speakers, I will only look at or buy from those companies made in Canada or Europe. There was one time I would not look at Paradigm as they used to build (load) their cabinets in such a way to colour the sound (made them a little bass heavy). Their new speakers (Reference Series, in particular) are very nice (have you seen their center channel? It's HUGE). The downside - price. Once again, my hat is off to Axiom.

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#99178 - 07/13/05 01:00 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7395
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
I haven't heard the GR 60s, but did listen to the GR 20s. I didn't listen for long though, I knew I couldn't afford them and didn't want to become "attached." What finish are your 60s in?
_________________________
***********
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#99179 - 07/13/05 01:04 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7395
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Oops! Didn't mean to steer this thread off-topic, but then, when do these threads ever stay on-topic?
_________________________
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#99180 - 07/13/05 01:54 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
sidvicious02 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 973
Loc: Brandon, Manitoba
if anyone is looking for a decent 7 channel amp, they may wish to look at Sherbourn. They have numerous different options and have a 5 channel amp available (that I own and enjoy) that you can add an extra two channels to in the future.
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#99181 - 07/13/05 02:01 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
They are the cherry finish. I was tempted to go for Rosemah but I wanted a lighter finish to stand out more. Mind you. NOw that I see the Axiom Boston Cherry, I wish I had gotten the Rosemah finish.

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#99182 - 07/13/05 09:25 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
Ratpack,

Try that Sherbourn link above. Is that the amp your were asking about?

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#99183 - 07/13/05 10:33 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Bug: I looked at that one, but, no, that is not the amp that I am talking about. I will probably run across it when I am looking for something else.

Right now, the Outlaw 200 watt mono-blocks look like the best bet.

I have read where Samsung is delivering their 1080 P HD TVs. I want to see one in person before I finally decide and Tweeter's says that they will have one on the 22nd. The TV will most probably be my next purchase since my current one is on its last legs.
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#99184 - 07/14/05 12:05 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
rcvecc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 608
Loc: east haven ct
a friend of mine has the sherbourne 7x200 running paradigm studio 100s-that amp is a powerhouse.not too much money either

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#99185 - 07/14/05 01:56 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7395
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
In reply to:

They are the cherry finish. I was tempted to go for Rosemah but I wanted a lighter finish to stand out more. Mind you. NOw that I see the Axiom Boston Cherry, I wish I had gotten the Rosemah finish.




Yes, the Rosemah is nice, but I too went with the cherry finish. Love it.
_________________________
***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose

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#99186 - 07/16/05 09:39 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
I've asked before, but I'll ask again, maybe someone else will see it.

Anyone know of a separate 3 channel amplifier?
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#99187 - 07/16/05 12:18 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
EBAY TODAY

SONY TA-N220 2, 3, 4-Channel Power Amp A++ $1.00
1 Jul-15 11:04
Adcom GFA - 2535 Multi Channel Amplifier 3 or 4 channel $100.00
1 Jul-14 11:19
New TOA 900 Series 3 channel Mixer POWER AMPLIFIER L@@K $24.99
- Jul-13 20:41
B&K Reference 4430 600 watt 3 channel amplifier
like Adcom, Krell, Levinson, McIntosh
$256.00
$800.00
3
Jul-13 20:05
Bryston 5B The Perfect 3 Channel Home Theater Amplifier
STILL 14 YEARS WARRANTY
$660.00
9 Jul-13 14:05
SONY TA-N220 2, 3, 4-Channel Power Amp…EXCELLENT!!!

_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#99188 - 07/16/05 12:23 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
Niles, Crown, Adcom. I've heard of but never seen any of them. I'd bet there are others.

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#99189 - 07/18/05 11:12 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Thanks!

I'll go to some of their websites and see what the specs are.
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#99190 - 07/18/05 10:27 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Bug: did you try just 2 amps for the fronts before adding the third for the center? I can't remember if you tried that or not.

I would be interested in knowing if "freeing" up the receiver power supply from the fronts was enough to make a difference on/ for the other channels.
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#99191 - 07/18/05 11:20 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
Actually I used a single on the center because only one arrived. I was so impressed that I ordered the third that evening. When the second arrived, I changed to L&R. Added the center when the third arrived.

Did it make a difference in the surrounds? Can't say that it did. I can tell you that the Denon still runs very warm without even running the mains and center.

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#99192 - 07/18/05 11:33 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Do you think that your Denon just naturally runs hot? Seems a little strange that it would be hot with the "majority" of the power load eliminated. My old Kenwood runs pretty cool even when I run it loud, but, then again, everyone knows that loud to me is not necessarily loud to them.

I thought that you said that you noticed a difference in the sound quality. With just the center? With just the fronts? With center and fronts?

By the way, the Samsung 6168s are being delivered. I hope to see one at Tweeters this weekend.
_________________________
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#99193 - 07/18/05 11:36 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5279
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
My HK runs hot at idle, and only gets hotter when under load. 7 channels doing nothing still burns a bunch of power.

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#99194 - 07/19/05 07:23 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
This is strange. Most of the receivers/ amplifiers that I have been looking at claim power efficiencies of 80% or more using class F, G, H (or something else that wasn't invented when I was in college).

So where is all the heat coming from? It shouln't be from the power amplifiers, especially when they aren't doing much.
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#99195 - 07/19/05 09:33 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5279
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Ahh, you're looking at fancier stuff than me. As far as I know the HK amps (except for the digitals) are good 'ol class AB, which does dump some waste heat at idle (although not much, multiply it by 7 and all of a sudden you're getting warm).

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#99196 - 07/19/05 08:02 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
<<I thought that you said that you noticed a difference in the sound quality. With just the center? With just the fronts? With center and fronts? >>

With only one on center. Center sounded better. With 2 on fronts. Fronts sounded better. With 3 on center and fronts. ALL sounded better.



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#99197 - 07/19/05 08:07 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
It seems strange to me because the monoblocks are cool.

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#99198 - 07/19/05 08:41 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5279
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
There is something tricky about the way the outlaw monoblocks work -- something about a low power class AB amp plus a high power class "something else" that automatically kicks in as the volume goes up.

Ahh, here we go -- "The Model 200 operates as Class A/B power up to 80 watts, transitioning within 2 microseconds (2 millionths! of a second) to Class G above that. This allows a remarkable combination of signal quality, high power levels, high efficiency, and low operating temperatures without the use of a cooling fan. The transition to Class G is absolutely inaudible, because the 2 microsecond transition lasts about 1/25th the duration of a single cycle of 20 kHz audio. For the Class A/B operation mode the output stage uses four 15-amp bipolar transistors, while the Class G operation employs two 40-amp high-power MOSFETs. "

http://www.gspr.com/outlaw/200.html

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#99199 - 07/19/05 08:58 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
I understand the cool of the monos. Part of the reason I bought them. It's the warm Denon that makes me wonder.

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#99200 - 07/19/05 11:11 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
When I was in college there wasn't any such thing as class "G."

Guess that I'm old as dirt.

I going to get a set of definitions of these new classes of efficiencies and print them out for ready reference.
_________________________
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#99201 - 07/20/05 11:32 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
I am truly gun-shy about eBay nowadays. I think many people are as characterized on The Simpsons where Homer purchased a cowbell off of eBay. It broke in his hands after ringing it and he yelled "Damn you eBay!".
Any way I had purchased my Monitor Audio GR-60s off of eBay after making sure that the speakers were in new-mint condition. When I received them the base plinths were all beat up and they were missing the gold cones and floor discs. I had to go the way of an insurance claim to make things right, however the fault was not the shipping service, it was the seller. The point is that eBay is not what it used to be and deals are few and far between. You do not get what you pay for. Too many people selling on eBay are deceptive and just try to sell their abused goods. This of course is just based on my experience. I have had a lot of good experience on eBay as well. You really have to do you research on the seller. If they don't respond to your emails or edit your email so that they are not answering the original question or they have ANY negative feedback, move on.

That being said, if you can find eBay sellers in your area, that would be ideal so at least you can inspect the equipment. Some of this equipment is just too much money to not get what you are expecting.

eBay's feedback system does not work either. You can not leave feedback after three months. If a transaction takes longer than three months due to a problem that requires action by the seller, good luck in getting any further cooperation after leaving negative feedback at the three month mark.

I was tempted to buy an Anthem PVA-7 off eBay but received no response to my questions about the product. (alarm bells ringing). Too much "buyer beware" for big ticket items.


Sooooo, aside from all this paranoia talk about eBay purchases does anyone have any price comparisons between Anthem and Sherbourn? From my local sellers Anthem PVA-7: $3000Cdn plus tax and Sherbourn 7/1250A power amp: $3400Cdn plus tax.

I'd like to hear from those people with experience in going with three channel amps (main left and right and center) and leaving the surrounds to the receiver. Is this marginally acceptable, i.e. do you find it will be a temporary measure versus an acceptable permanent solution? Are the power levels of your receiver the same or close to the separate amp(s)? I currently have a HK AVR-320 (5.1; one of my problem purchases from eBay) but eventually want to move to 7.1

One avenue of thought I had come across stated that purchasing (as an example) an Anthem AVM-30 and using the internal amp(s) of the receiver would yield dramatically better results. This of course was a temporary measure for economic reasons to those who would eventually purchase separate amps.

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#99202 - 07/20/05 11:42 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
In reply to:

The point is that eBay is not what it used to be and deals are few and far between.




I agree with you. Is it just me or does it seem odd to anyone else the amount of bids being placed by people with no feedback who just registered? Granted everyone has to start out from scratch at one point but it sure looks to me like more and more sellers are using alternate id's to bump up the selling price.

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#99203 - 07/20/05 12:16 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
That is indeed a very likely possibility. On a number of bids I have seen my maximum bid price reached a little too often. Granted some are a result of people putting in a lot of incremental last minute bids. I have often missed a bid thinking "Darn, I could have afforded another $25".

I think the best deals are to be had (with some patience) from dealers having close-out specials. A prime example is when I bought Mirage M3-si speakers at about $3600. After a year or two, Mirage discontinued them and they cleared them out at $2650. That's a big mark-up! They were the speakers that I had a great experience with my first Adcom GFA-535II with passive preamp. That is why I was considering a multichannel Adcom until someone mentioned they are no longer the company that they used to be.

The option I like is used/demo equipment from the dealer.

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#99204 - 07/21/05 09:32 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
The old saying of "Buyer Beware" is just as accurate today, as it was 30 years ago.

You just have to be careful of where you shop and the folks that you deal with.
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99205 - 07/21/05 10:28 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
Outlaw announced the specs on their upgraded 7100 in an email today.

The 7125:

Power Output: 7 x 125 watts RMS at 8O, all channels driven from 20 Hz to 20kHz with less than 0.05% THD 7 x 190 watts RMS at 8O, all channels driven from 20 Hz to 20kHz with less than 0.05% THD Frequency Response: 20 Hz - 20 kHz ±0.1 dB at rated output Total Harmonic Distortion (THD): Less than 0.05% at rated output, less than 0.01% at 1 kHz Intermodulation Distortion (IMD): Less than 0.05% at rated output Power Bandwidth: 5 Hz - >125kHx +0/-3 dB Damping Factor: Greater than 400 from 10 Hz to 400 Hz
Crosstalk: Greater than -90dB from 20 Hz to 20kHz
Gain: Voltage Gain of 28 dB
Slew Rate: 50v/uSec
Input Impedance: Nominal 50k Ohms
Input Sensitivity: 1.0 volts for full rated output Remote trigger voltage: 3 - 32 VDC at 5ma or greater Dimensions (HxWxD): 5.0" x 17.2" x 16.2"
Product Weight: 51 lbs.
Power Requirements: 115VAC ±3%, 50-60Hz.
Power Consumption: 1,200 watts max


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#99206 - 07/21/05 11:51 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Bug: Thanks!! Good Find.

Did they mention a price?

Was that second power number (7 x 190 watts) at 8 ohms or 4 ohms?
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The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99207 - 07/21/05 12:19 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
Here's the full text of the newsletter.7125



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#99208 - 07/21/05 01:05 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
sidvicious02 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 973
Loc: Brandon, Manitoba
Rat,
here's a good website with lots of info on different amp classes: Educypedia

I have not looked through the whole thing, but hopefully there is some info in there of use to you.
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"Chickens don't clap."

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#99209 - 07/21/05 09:56 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Hey thanks!!!!!

I had no idea that there were so many different classes of amplifiers. As I said, when I was in college they had A, B, and C combinations and flavors.

What is the world coming to? LOL!!

I'm going to read those articles.
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#99210 - 07/22/05 03:15 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
In reply to:

The 7125:
Power Consumption: 1,200 watts max




Wow, that leaves just enough room on the typical circuit for a processor and maybe a DVD player.

This is where it is nice to see one breaker in your panel leblled "amplifier".

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#99211 - 07/22/05 04:34 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Bruce: we've been through this discussion on another thread. That number is for all channels driven to full power simultaneously.

We have one data point that indicates that listening at very loud levels, peak power requirements are 40% of that stated number.

So, I wouldn't worry about tripping any 15 or 20 amp breakers.

That amp looks very nice. Its on my "review" list.
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#99212 - 07/23/05 01:29 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
And here I was ready to install that new 12 ga power wire from the panel board.

Aw heck I'm going to do it anyway.

Only one problem is that I ran out of circuits and need a new panel board .

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#99213 - 07/24/05 08:53 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
An extra 20 amp circuit never hurts. However, the full panel (breaker) box may present you with a challenge.
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#99214 - 07/26/05 02:50 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
Yep, I can either replace the entire panel $$$ or add a sub panel from the existing one. Either way, I have to replace my panel mounting board which will involve the power company turning off the power.

I have a question for those owners of Outlaw Audio amplifiers. I have been looking at their 7x125W amplifier versus the 7x200W amplifier. Has anyone tried the two and found a sound quality difference? Is the 7x200W simply louder? Their contact person (Scott) has been very helpful and very forthcoming with answers to all the questions I have had for him. His opinion seems to be that going to 200W is only required for inefficient speakers. The combination of Monitor Audio and Axiom speakers that I will have seem to be plenty efficient to warrant sticking with 125W per channel.

Comments?

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#99215 - 07/26/05 11:31 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Just how loud do you want to listen?

Do you have a SPL meter?
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#99216 - 07/27/05 12:04 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
JohnK Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10362
Bruce, being an owner of either of the two units probably wouldn't be helpful in answering your question. The transparency of each in amplification would be a given and the question would simply be one of the relative maximum power capabilities. Although the difference between 125 watts and 200 watts appears large from just the numbers, the logarithmic nature of the calculation of sound levels shows that the difference is only 2.04dB. For example, if a certain momentary peak could be played at 110dB using 125 watts, it could be played at 112.04dB using 200 watts. It's highly unlikely in the real world that this would be significant, keeping in mind that at a comfortably loud average listening level the speakers will be using about 1 watt.
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#99217 - 07/27/05 12:09 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
Ok, my ideal level will probably peak in about the same range as the louder theaters. I don't know if anyone here has actually measured this as a reference. Anyone? I am one of those unlucky few that procrastinated with the Radio Shack buyout and thus am sans SPL meter.

I have heard comments with some amplifier manufacturers that the higher power models "sound better" due to their "ability to control the speakers" as a result of the increased available power.

I could speculate that a good amplifier manufacturer should be great all across the board and thus it comes down to a simple matter of dB. Dynamic headroom?

I understand that the Axiom speakers are quite efficient and thus should not require a lot of power. In addition, if I construct a media room properly to contain the energy of the sound, I should theoretically require less power (as compared to those who place their systems in living rooms where the systems experience lots of loss - hence the need for bigger subwoofers). Also my media room would be classified as "small" at approximately 14' x 23' x 7'.

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#99218 - 07/30/05 09:15 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Bruce: did you notice all the sales that Outlaw just announced?

Probably time to make a decision if you want some of their gear.
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#99219 - 08/08/05 05:09 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
Indeed! I have been waiting for the 7125 and M990 combo to come out. Unfortunately for me the wife wanted to go camping and I missed the order deadline to get an additional $100USD off the price tag.
Argh!

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#99220 - 08/09/05 08:18 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
What a bummer!!!!

They may have another sale, of some sort, before the Summer is over.
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#99221 - 08/09/05 10:40 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
I told the wife I was going to buy the Outlaw combo (even have the money for it) and she told me to wait. We have a leaky basement that needs repair and wanted to make sure we had enough money to fix it (wanting to take money out of my Home Theater Fund ). I emailed Outlaw thanking them for the opportunity to buy at a reduced price to save a couple of hundred USD and he responded saying they still have the promotion on (even though their web states it ended at the end of July). There is no word of when the promotion will end but he will let me know. I got an official quote this morning for some epoxy injection for my basement cracks at about $400. That leaves plenty for the Outlaw combo .

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#99222 - 08/09/05 10:54 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Hey, sounds like you really lucked out. I would order that combo, right now, if that is what you want. Why pay more later, if you can still get the discount.

I still haven't made up my mind as to what I really want to get. Several manufacturers will have new models to introduce over the next 2-3 months. There is another thread on this board talking about the new Denons.

I am just about ready to "pull the trigger" on a new HDTV. I like the 61" Samsung 1080P. I have been reading quite a bit about it. I have satisfied all of my concerns except one. I WANT to see on in person before I buy it. Tweeters, here in town, says that they will have one the end of this week. If they do, I will go by and take a look.

After I get everything "squared away" with the new TV, I'll resume looking at audio gear.
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The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#99223 - 08/18/05 10:34 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Any rumors that the "new" Axiom amps may be 2 or 3 or 5 or 7 channel amps?
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#99224 - 08/19/05 04:39 AM Re: 7 Channel Amps
JohnK Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10362
Bernard, Gene DellaSala's comparison in his Axiom tour article with the power delivery of a conventional 7 channel amp appears to imply that it's 7 channel.
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#99225 - 08/19/05 03:06 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
I am actually going to wait and see if it is a better option to an Outlaw Audio 2175. I say "better" because I want the sound quality first and budget second and also Axiom is located in Canada. The OOutlaw 2175 looks very nice especially considering the deal they give purchasing it in a combo setup with their 990 processor.

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#99226 - 08/30/05 11:17 PM Re: 7 Channel Amps
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Thanks John.

I read that article and I agree with you that there are strong indications that it is a 7 channel amp. I was hoping that there would be a little more information in the next newsletter, which came out today, about it.

Oh well, I'm in no big hurry.
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