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Are we hurting Axiom?
#100743 06/29/05 12:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
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Let me state right up front that I have, in no way, shape or form spoken to anyone at Axiom about this topic, and have no idea what their reaction would have been to this topic or what it will be when this is posted. This is simply an observation on my part. Further, I'm not pointing fingers at any forum members here; I have no idea who has done this in the past and who hasn't. Either way, I could just be talking out of my hat… or worse. Capn Pickard, does this suffice for the layman?

Frequently in these forums, members casually recommend to potential Axiom clients to just have Axiom ship them a bunch of speakers as they can return what they decide they don't want. Or, they're told to order a set of speakers to try for their 30 days, allowing that they can be sent back to Axiom at N/C if the customer decides to go with a "bigger" model. As a businessman, I cringe every time I read this.

I'm not the "Axiom Police", but it seems that those suggestions are sometimes made too nonchalantly. We know that "returned" speakers are sold at substantial discounts to family members of employees, and those discounts (plus the initial shipping costs from Axiom to the customer and sometimes again back to Axiom) require a substantial loss to Axiom. I have absolutely no idea of the financial integrity of Axiom (and it's none of my business) yet I can't help but cringe when someone here makes a casual suggestion that will (needlessly) cost Axiom hundreds of dollars. Maybe it's part of their business model, with the thought that if they can just get them in people's homes, 95% of people will love them.

We all know that the in-home trial is important to Axiom. I for one, felt that Axioms were likely "too good to be true" for their selling price, and the 30-day return allowed me to feel confident in ordering them. Further, some people honestly are not sure of the best model for them and might make a wrong decision and wish to change to another model. So I'm not suggesting that the recommendation to do this should not be made at times…. Only that it's sometimes made too casually.

I first became aware of this when someone wrote (essentially) "just order the 60's even if you really think you want the 80s. It won't cost you anything to upgrade to the 80's down the road." I think that's simply unfair to Axiom.

We all know that we truly are not shills for Axiom. Despite their hosting this forum, we've never ever been made to feel that we can't speak our mind on any topic, even including recommending a competitive product sometimes. But I think that, without shilling for Axiom or being a bunch of brownnoses that we should at least be aware that casual recommendations such as the above will cost Axiom many dollars needlessly.

[Soap Box Mode] My personal opinion is that 30-day return policies should be used as a last resort. It's not even just an Axiom thing. I've read often in audio forums of people who "try" a multi-thousand dollar component for awhile in their home when they're really doing nothing more than in-home playing. "Well, I went in to check out DVD players, but they had this awesome $2500 receiver that I thought was really cool. I figured I'd take it home since they have a 30-day return policy. I'm not gonna keep it, but I wanted to see what kind of a difference it would make in my setup". We've all read posts like that before. Maybe I'm too sensitive to it, but I equate it a bit with theft. If your intentions are not to keep it, then don't take home an unopened box that, once opened, the store will have to sell for hundreds of dollars less. Don't buy an RS SPL meter to use once and return; tell your wife and girlfriend that it's wrong to buy a dress, wear it to a function and return it. It's perverting the intentions of the store to allow returns to ensure that customers are happy. And, in the end, we all pay for it through adjusted pricing. Or, maybe it's part of why there are no more "stereo" stores on Main Street anymore.

I know it can be argued that if that person keeps the $2500 receiver in their home for awhile, they just might like it too much to return it and the store makes the sale so sometimes it works out. But much more often than not, customers just take advantage of the policies for their own gain. [/Soap Box Mode]

Sometimes it's warranted to make use of a 30 day trial….pure and simple….especially with a product like Axiom speakers that aren't available for demo in local showrooms and are dependant upon room acoustics. But for those of us who make recommendations to potential Axiom customers, we should at least keep in mind that a too-casual recommendation on our part can cost Axiom hundreds of dollars in lost shipping costs and reduced sale price of the speakers.



[donning flak jacket but hoping that if I need to defend myself, it will at least bring me over the 1k-post mark!]


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100744 06/29/05 12:38 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 295
local
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local
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I couldnt agree more with your post. It is unfair for businesses to have to take a hit because somone wants to have some fun for a month. We all end up paying the price....and by all I mean those of us that actually buy something because we have done our research and taken advice from experienced users of the same product.

30 Day Trials are Great...but I feel that businesses should charge for return shipping if you just dont like it.... However if you decide you want bigger they should waive return shipping and just upgrade you.... I think that would work better in the over all scheme.




-------------------------------------
Denon 4308
M80x2,VP150,EP600,4xQS8
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100745 06/29/05 12:58 PM
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Posts: 2,034
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Right you are, Mark!

I've fallen into using that phrase all to often myself(kinda like "be sure and send pictures")simply because others have recomended the 30 day deal for comparrison so often that it almost seems natural to do so, too!

Think I'll file that recomendation into the "last resort" slot.

Good point!
Rich.

Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100746 06/29/05 01:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
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I have no profound answer to your questions, Mark. But, I'll throw out a couple of thoughts for discussion.

1.) Would Axiom institute a policy that hurts the company? We have absolutely no idea of Axiom's profit margin, and it is, quite frankly, none of our business. But, I suspect that even at the discounted price the returns bring, Axiom makes a richly deserved profit.

2.) Might this return policy not result in more sales than returns? I.E., do more people keep the speakers than return them?

3,) The customer who is ordering just to indulge his curiosity, with no intention of buying, is appropriately punished by having to pay return shipping, which, at the least, acts as a deterent for that kind of irresponsible behavior. The customer who returns his speakers to move up to a more expensive (larger profit?) speaker is rewarded with no additional shipping costs.

I put my faith in Ian and Amie and the gang, and assume that if this policy were hurting the company, it wouldn't exist.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100747 06/29/05 01:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
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In reply to:

I put my faith in Ian and Amie and the gang, and assume that if this policy were hurting the company, it wouldn't exist.



I agree... and think the 30 day trials are necessary for Axiom. How many people would order speakers without hearing them if there was no return policy available?

But if someone really thinks they want the 80s, but order the 60s first to try, I don't think Axiom is going to see any benefit of the more expensive speaker sale by time they pay shipping 3X for the original order and return and now the new order.

I agree ... I'm sure they know what they're doing. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't at least be aware of making casual recommendations that represents a part of their operating costs. I think some members forget that someone (either the Axiom folks or future customers by way of price changes) does pay for those shipping charges and perfectly good speakers that must be sold at a lower price.

And, I don't think it's just an Axiom issue. I think many, many companies are hurt in some manner by customers who make purchases on a whim, without doing their homework (or worse) deceptively only to make a return to the seller.




::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100748 06/29/05 01:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
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connoisseur
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Excellent counterpoint, Jack!

I had the same idea in mind when I ordered my last pair of Axiom speakers. I fully expected to return my latest speakers for a potential upgrade if required, and take advantage of the free returns on upgrades.

As it turns out though, the speakers integrated so well with my prior speakers and sounded exactly as I hoped that they would, that returning them was out of the question!

But it Was comforting to know that I had that option, if it were required to take advantage of it. So as a sales incentive: it Worked!

(One of those topics you can easily take both sides on, interchangeably)

Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100749 06/29/05 02:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
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There is also another great feature in Axiom policies: willingness of Axiom owners to let other people to visit their places to audition their speakers. That is a very important feature as allows people who are serious about purchasing a speaker listen to it without ordering them. Most likely, whoever likes the Axioms in somebody's else home, will like them at their home too, and chances to return them are very low.

Yes, sometimes I feel some people take advantage of "trial" period in a very unhonest way. It is aweful for example when somebody in a restaurant orders an entree that they have no idea what it is, and then calls the waiter to say that she/he did not like the food, and needs to order something else. And of course, they all expect not to pay for the first entree, but what happens with the cost of restaurant if the meal is wasted in such way!!! I know that this is probably a vulgar example, but believe me, it happens a lot.


Axiom M60s, QS4s, VP100 Onkyo TX-SR804 Oppo 970HD Rotel RB-1080/RCD-1072 REL Q150E sub, PS 3
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100750 06/29/05 02:33 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
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devotee
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Great topic and comments. Listen, I agree with this issue when it's intentionally abused. I was divorced when both my daughters were in high school and their mother would buy them prom dresses and then return them. I pitched a fit and gave my daughters the ole "that's morally wrong, stealing and just downright wrong" lecture. I explained exactly what's being said here.

For Axioms, I ordered the M50's knowing that I really wanted the 60's but wanted to be sure that the 50's wouldn't suffice. They didn't and I ordered the 60's and returned the 50's. As a business owner, I understand this policy but I also understand competition and offering those services that will sell my product. I'm sure that Axiom keeps stats and metrics on # of orders-# of returns-# of keeps. The % of keeps vs. returns is obviously high enough to cover the shipping that they pay for upgrades. It's probably considered a cost of doing business and may even be an expense that can be written off.

But, yes, I agree that abuse is wrong!!! Good soapbox!!!

Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100751 06/29/05 02:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
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B
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I, for one, have used the return option. It was for an upgrade. I fully expected to pay for the return shipping. I was pleasantly surprised. I expected to return my first speakers before the second arrived. Again, pleasantly surprised.

The old saying about price, service and quality. You get any 2 of 3. I believe Axiom has figured out how to offer all three.

Anybody with manufacturing and costing backgrounds can figure out how much money Axiom makes on a speaker. Returns are a cost of business. Axiom and other companies like them have found their niche and figured out how to make money at it. Axiom's customer service and personal response to inquiries has made their customers friends along the way.

I know it been suggested, but there are not a lot of people who would charge 2 pairs of speakers to a CC just to return one set.

Axiom's doing it right. If it quits working. They will change to rules.



Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100752 06/29/05 02:45 PM
Joined: May 2005
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Its just a necessary evil...

The policy has to be in place because the advantages vastly overwhelm the disads. What if the policy was not in place? Very few purchases of Axioms, I would imagine.

I can understand the point that the board can spout off the advise of returning too much, as I haved read the advise amny times. However, if the policy was not as freindly or as long etc, I question whether I would be willing to spend $2000-3000+ possilby sight unseen, er heard.

I think very sucessful companies stand behind their product and say, "This thing sells itself." Add the best possible customer service and whola.... success. Sure, there are people out there to take advantage of everything, but there are also people like me who know that they probably never return let say a Ep-600, but I might just order one because I can.

That freedom of return anything for any reason has built quite a few companies (buy a shovel, use it, leave dirt on it, hell break it and then try to return it to Wal-mart-- they'll take it) and I sure it is part of Axioms success.

In fact, I'm sure that they love this board and the unrestricted freedom that it has been given and all that goes along with it. Everyone saying, just try it, heck you can return it if you want probably sells more speakers than any other type of review. I know that its worked in my case at least.

Thanks for tolerating this rant,

Ben


H/K DPR 2005 80s 150 4 QS 8s 600 Panny 97 Panny Ae 900
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