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Are we hurting Axiom?
#100743 06/29/05 12:25 PM
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Let me state right up front that I have, in no way, shape or form spoken to anyone at Axiom about this topic, and have no idea what their reaction would have been to this topic or what it will be when this is posted. This is simply an observation on my part. Further, I'm not pointing fingers at any forum members here; I have no idea who has done this in the past and who hasn't. Either way, I could just be talking out of my hat… or worse. Capn Pickard, does this suffice for the layman?

Frequently in these forums, members casually recommend to potential Axiom clients to just have Axiom ship them a bunch of speakers as they can return what they decide they don't want. Or, they're told to order a set of speakers to try for their 30 days, allowing that they can be sent back to Axiom at N/C if the customer decides to go with a "bigger" model. As a businessman, I cringe every time I read this.

I'm not the "Axiom Police", but it seems that those suggestions are sometimes made too nonchalantly. We know that "returned" speakers are sold at substantial discounts to family members of employees, and those discounts (plus the initial shipping costs from Axiom to the customer and sometimes again back to Axiom) require a substantial loss to Axiom. I have absolutely no idea of the financial integrity of Axiom (and it's none of my business) yet I can't help but cringe when someone here makes a casual suggestion that will (needlessly) cost Axiom hundreds of dollars. Maybe it's part of their business model, with the thought that if they can just get them in people's homes, 95% of people will love them.

We all know that the in-home trial is important to Axiom. I for one, felt that Axioms were likely "too good to be true" for their selling price, and the 30-day return allowed me to feel confident in ordering them. Further, some people honestly are not sure of the best model for them and might make a wrong decision and wish to change to another model. So I'm not suggesting that the recommendation to do this should not be made at times…. Only that it's sometimes made too casually.

I first became aware of this when someone wrote (essentially) "just order the 60's even if you really think you want the 80s. It won't cost you anything to upgrade to the 80's down the road." I think that's simply unfair to Axiom.

We all know that we truly are not shills for Axiom. Despite their hosting this forum, we've never ever been made to feel that we can't speak our mind on any topic, even including recommending a competitive product sometimes. But I think that, without shilling for Axiom or being a bunch of brownnoses that we should at least be aware that casual recommendations such as the above will cost Axiom many dollars needlessly.

[Soap Box Mode] My personal opinion is that 30-day return policies should be used as a last resort. It's not even just an Axiom thing. I've read often in audio forums of people who "try" a multi-thousand dollar component for awhile in their home when they're really doing nothing more than in-home playing. "Well, I went in to check out DVD players, but they had this awesome $2500 receiver that I thought was really cool. I figured I'd take it home since they have a 30-day return policy. I'm not gonna keep it, but I wanted to see what kind of a difference it would make in my setup". We've all read posts like that before. Maybe I'm too sensitive to it, but I equate it a bit with theft. If your intentions are not to keep it, then don't take home an unopened box that, once opened, the store will have to sell for hundreds of dollars less. Don't buy an RS SPL meter to use once and return; tell your wife and girlfriend that it's wrong to buy a dress, wear it to a function and return it. It's perverting the intentions of the store to allow returns to ensure that customers are happy. And, in the end, we all pay for it through adjusted pricing. Or, maybe it's part of why there are no more "stereo" stores on Main Street anymore.

I know it can be argued that if that person keeps the $2500 receiver in their home for awhile, they just might like it too much to return it and the store makes the sale so sometimes it works out. But much more often than not, customers just take advantage of the policies for their own gain. [/Soap Box Mode]

Sometimes it's warranted to make use of a 30 day trial….pure and simple….especially with a product like Axiom speakers that aren't available for demo in local showrooms and are dependant upon room acoustics. But for those of us who make recommendations to potential Axiom customers, we should at least keep in mind that a too-casual recommendation on our part can cost Axiom hundreds of dollars in lost shipping costs and reduced sale price of the speakers.



[donning flak jacket but hoping that if I need to defend myself, it will at least bring me over the 1k-post mark!]


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100744 06/29/05 12:38 PM
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I couldnt agree more with your post. It is unfair for businesses to have to take a hit because somone wants to have some fun for a month. We all end up paying the price....and by all I mean those of us that actually buy something because we have done our research and taken advice from experienced users of the same product.

30 Day Trials are Great...but I feel that businesses should charge for return shipping if you just dont like it.... However if you decide you want bigger they should waive return shipping and just upgrade you.... I think that would work better in the over all scheme.




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Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100745 06/29/05 12:58 PM
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Right you are, Mark!

I've fallen into using that phrase all to often myself(kinda like "be sure and send pictures")simply because others have recomended the 30 day deal for comparrison so often that it almost seems natural to do so, too!

Think I'll file that recomendation into the "last resort" slot.

Good point!
Rich.

Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100746 06/29/05 01:14 PM
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I have no profound answer to your questions, Mark. But, I'll throw out a couple of thoughts for discussion.

1.) Would Axiom institute a policy that hurts the company? We have absolutely no idea of Axiom's profit margin, and it is, quite frankly, none of our business. But, I suspect that even at the discounted price the returns bring, Axiom makes a richly deserved profit.

2.) Might this return policy not result in more sales than returns? I.E., do more people keep the speakers than return them?

3,) The customer who is ordering just to indulge his curiosity, with no intention of buying, is appropriately punished by having to pay return shipping, which, at the least, acts as a deterent for that kind of irresponsible behavior. The customer who returns his speakers to move up to a more expensive (larger profit?) speaker is rewarded with no additional shipping costs.

I put my faith in Ian and Amie and the gang, and assume that if this policy were hurting the company, it wouldn't exist.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100747 06/29/05 01:33 PM
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In reply to:

I put my faith in Ian and Amie and the gang, and assume that if this policy were hurting the company, it wouldn't exist.



I agree... and think the 30 day trials are necessary for Axiom. How many people would order speakers without hearing them if there was no return policy available?

But if someone really thinks they want the 80s, but order the 60s first to try, I don't think Axiom is going to see any benefit of the more expensive speaker sale by time they pay shipping 3X for the original order and return and now the new order.

I agree ... I'm sure they know what they're doing. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't at least be aware of making casual recommendations that represents a part of their operating costs. I think some members forget that someone (either the Axiom folks or future customers by way of price changes) does pay for those shipping charges and perfectly good speakers that must be sold at a lower price.

And, I don't think it's just an Axiom issue. I think many, many companies are hurt in some manner by customers who make purchases on a whim, without doing their homework (or worse) deceptively only to make a return to the seller.




::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100748 06/29/05 01:48 PM
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Excellent counterpoint, Jack!

I had the same idea in mind when I ordered my last pair of Axiom speakers. I fully expected to return my latest speakers for a potential upgrade if required, and take advantage of the free returns on upgrades.

As it turns out though, the speakers integrated so well with my prior speakers and sounded exactly as I hoped that they would, that returning them was out of the question!

But it Was comforting to know that I had that option, if it were required to take advantage of it. So as a sales incentive: it Worked!

(One of those topics you can easily take both sides on, interchangeably)

Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100749 06/29/05 02:04 PM
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There is also another great feature in Axiom policies: willingness of Axiom owners to let other people to visit their places to audition their speakers. That is a very important feature as allows people who are serious about purchasing a speaker listen to it without ordering them. Most likely, whoever likes the Axioms in somebody's else home, will like them at their home too, and chances to return them are very low.

Yes, sometimes I feel some people take advantage of "trial" period in a very unhonest way. It is aweful for example when somebody in a restaurant orders an entree that they have no idea what it is, and then calls the waiter to say that she/he did not like the food, and needs to order something else. And of course, they all expect not to pay for the first entree, but what happens with the cost of restaurant if the meal is wasted in such way!!! I know that this is probably a vulgar example, but believe me, it happens a lot.


Axiom M60s, QS4s, VP100 Onkyo TX-SR804 Oppo 970HD Rotel RB-1080/RCD-1072 REL Q150E sub, PS 3
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100750 06/29/05 02:33 PM
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Great topic and comments. Listen, I agree with this issue when it's intentionally abused. I was divorced when both my daughters were in high school and their mother would buy them prom dresses and then return them. I pitched a fit and gave my daughters the ole "that's morally wrong, stealing and just downright wrong" lecture. I explained exactly what's being said here.

For Axioms, I ordered the M50's knowing that I really wanted the 60's but wanted to be sure that the 50's wouldn't suffice. They didn't and I ordered the 60's and returned the 50's. As a business owner, I understand this policy but I also understand competition and offering those services that will sell my product. I'm sure that Axiom keeps stats and metrics on # of orders-# of returns-# of keeps. The % of keeps vs. returns is obviously high enough to cover the shipping that they pay for upgrades. It's probably considered a cost of doing business and may even be an expense that can be written off.

But, yes, I agree that abuse is wrong!!! Good soapbox!!!

Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100751 06/29/05 02:36 PM
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I, for one, have used the return option. It was for an upgrade. I fully expected to pay for the return shipping. I was pleasantly surprised. I expected to return my first speakers before the second arrived. Again, pleasantly surprised.

The old saying about price, service and quality. You get any 2 of 3. I believe Axiom has figured out how to offer all three.

Anybody with manufacturing and costing backgrounds can figure out how much money Axiom makes on a speaker. Returns are a cost of business. Axiom and other companies like them have found their niche and figured out how to make money at it. Axiom's customer service and personal response to inquiries has made their customers friends along the way.

I know it been suggested, but there are not a lot of people who would charge 2 pairs of speakers to a CC just to return one set.

Axiom's doing it right. If it quits working. They will change to rules.



Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100752 06/29/05 02:45 PM
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Its just a necessary evil...

The policy has to be in place because the advantages vastly overwhelm the disads. What if the policy was not in place? Very few purchases of Axioms, I would imagine.

I can understand the point that the board can spout off the advise of returning too much, as I haved read the advise amny times. However, if the policy was not as freindly or as long etc, I question whether I would be willing to spend $2000-3000+ possilby sight unseen, er heard.

I think very sucessful companies stand behind their product and say, "This thing sells itself." Add the best possible customer service and whola.... success. Sure, there are people out there to take advantage of everything, but there are also people like me who know that they probably never return let say a Ep-600, but I might just order one because I can.

That freedom of return anything for any reason has built quite a few companies (buy a shovel, use it, leave dirt on it, hell break it and then try to return it to Wal-mart-- they'll take it) and I sure it is part of Axioms success.

In fact, I'm sure that they love this board and the unrestricted freedom that it has been given and all that goes along with it. Everyone saying, just try it, heck you can return it if you want probably sells more speakers than any other type of review. I know that its worked in my case at least.

Thanks for tolerating this rant,

Ben


H/K DPR 2005 80s 150 4 QS 8s 600 Panny 97 Panny Ae 900
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100753 06/29/05 03:01 PM
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I have to agree with Jack. It's part of Axiom's business model and I assume would be factored into their product prices.

I think it's essential that this be offered by any company selling their products online. It's a plus for Axiom and I'm sure it has made many people feel "safer" about ordering an unseen/unheard product.




getting to 2,000 posts; one year at a time vp160/qs8/qs4/ep350/m60/m2200s
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100754 06/29/05 03:02 PM
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I will weigh in with a businessmans' perspective. I sell fitness equipment, and only offer a 10 day return policy. As far as I am concerned that is enough time for you to try a treadmill two or three times and decide if you like it. I think 30 days is too long and puts too much wear and tear on the machine. Also, I do not refuns and shipping or set up fees. Axiom by not having dealers really has to do this. However if it was me, I would charge for return shipping, if they are not upgrading. I agree with your post that a lot of people are probably abusing this very generous feature.

Shane D

Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100755 06/29/05 04:05 PM
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I think it speaks volumes to Axiom’s products and customer service that we care if we are negatively impacting their business. Mark, I think it says a lot about you (positively) as a person that you consider the impact of your actions.
I don't doubt that there are folks who abuse the option to return. However, being internet based and not having places where people can easily listen to their speakers, a liberal return policy really is a requirement for encouraging people to audition their speakers. Without that policy I would not have auditioned Axioms when I was looking around for speakers.
That flexible a return policy falls in line with their amazing, very personal and personable customer service. When I move to a larger place and have the money I will be getting speakers from Axiom. Both because they make great speakers that give me the neutrality in a speaker I crave and because their customer service defines the bell curve.
That they have not changed that policy tells me that it’s not having a negative (enough) impact on their business in comparison to the positive effect of bringing in new Axiomites. Spread the gospel brothers and sisters!

jr


"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." C Hitchens
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100756 06/29/05 05:21 PM
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Good points Mark.

Hmm, I don't think there is a clear cut right or wrong to this. Yes, maybe we do offer up advice to new customers to return or upgrade for free a little too nonchalantly. The "risk-free" in home trial is an integral part of Axiom's business. With it, and the free upgrade clause, Axiom builds a level of trust with the potential customer. I think this is the most important thing Axiom does. Buying new speakers is a harrowing ordeal. Buying speakers over the internet, often without an audition, is even more so. Without such a return policy, the potential customer may look elsewhere.

Of course, there are those who exploit such return policies and threaten to ruin things for the rest of us. Unfortunately, little can be done with these people. Wasn't there a thread here (maybe over at Audioholics) about Best Buy cracking down on exploitive returners? These people would buy something, return it, wait for Best Buy to reshelf the item at a marked down price, then purchase the item again. It frustrates me to read about this. Some take the stance that Best Buy is a big enough company and can afford the hits, or that people are within their rights to repurchase items. What happened to plain old honesty? Some people have no scruples and take advantage of situations simply because the opportunity presents itself.

I guess because I work in retail this kind of stuff bothers me. I see it everyday. Axiom's customer service is top-notch. Sure there are those who will take advantage of it, but in the long run Axiom will continue to build "relationships" with potential customers simply on the strength of their commitment to their product.

This forum is a huge part of Axioms continued success. Not only do we offer healthy discussions of all things audio, there is a certain sense of community a lot of people would like to buy into. Not only that, but it is an awesome way to set up in-home auditions for potential buyers.

But back to the original question posed by Mark. Yes, I think we do throw out the "try it and send it back if you don't like it" line a bit too nonchalantly. But I think it is spurred by the fact that Axiom has such great faith in their speakers, that we simply are trying to encourage such faith and satisfaction to new buyers. Every time I pass over such a comment, I feel Axiom is extending a small bit of trust to a customer, who in turn can offer the same amount of trust. Yes, there are those who will abuse this system, but I like to believe there are far more honest people out there who can tip the scales in favor of the good.


***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100757 06/29/05 06:13 PM
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I think one thing you all are forgetting is that there are a certain percentage of people out there that DON’T return speakers simply because of inertia. Once they get them home and set up, they really can’t be hassled to box everything back up again and lug it down to the post office (or make a call to FedEx for a pickup) so they end up keeping them no matter what they think about them. Case in point – haggling is a big part of many cultures around the world. No matter which country I’ve visited, if you haggle with money in hand, and you can get the other guy to touch that money, you will never have to raise your price – cause there is no way that guy is giving you back that money. Once some people get something home, it’s staying and that is a sale that Axiom would NOT have made without the return policy. It is similar to those rebates – it is much better than a sale for the manufacturer because not everyone turns them in.


Professional Axiom Lurker
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100758 06/29/05 07:27 PM
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How can an internet only sales company sell a product to potential customers in which that sale depends completely on the customer’s personal preferences without that customer experiencing/touching/feeling/hearing it? They have no choice but to let that person audition it, and have the option to send it back if it does not meet their criteria of personal preferences. The company can either offer to take their product back at no charge, or they can charge a nominal restocking fee. They can also charge that customer shipping, both to / from or one of each.

Axiom has the best customer service that I have ever experienced, period. Internet or otherwise. They have earned this reputation by catering to current and potential customers needs, wants and sometimes frivolous complaints. This forum in itself is an outstanding, and somewhat inexpensive marketing technique. What better way to sell you product, then let your current customers help you sell it? It also fosters a close nit community in which we all seam to enjoy being a part of. This forum is also an avenue to address issues that we may have with the product, and a means to rectify the issue. It’s also a direct conduit to the actual owners of the company. An excellent tool and feedback mechanism to say the least.

Getting back to the actual question of recommending folks buy Axiom products and return it if they are not satisfied…..

Why the hell not? Axiom would not offer this if they haven’t already built this “assumed” loss of profit scenario into their business plan and mission statement. And I’m pretty sure that it’s a line item in their plan’s Performa. I certainly wouldn’t offer this service if I didn’t budget for potential losses of revenue relating to the re-stocking, shipping costs, overhead and reduced product profit margin. I’d even wager that they still make a slight profit from any returned product, or at a minimum, a taxable expensive deduction.


Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100759 06/29/05 08:00 PM
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Ian and I were very touched reading through this post - it speaks volumes about how great the Axiom family is. Thanks, Mark, for your kind concern. It's so interesting - although there will always be a few people who are out to 'beat the system', for the most part people are just like the people on this forum - great people we're glad to know. You've given us the warm-fuzzies today - thank you!


Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100760 06/29/05 08:22 PM
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Thank YOU, Amie and Ian. It's a pleasure doing business with you.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100761 06/29/05 08:54 PM
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I think I'm with Jack on this one.If these practices would hurt Axiom I doubt it would be their polices.I have been reading this forum for over two years and it seems I have read about only a handful of people that have sent the speakers back.Also I don't think the upgrade policy is in anyway having a negitive affect or it just wouldn't be allowed.There is at least one other internet company,SVS,that gives a person a 45 day trial period.These trial periods are a must for these type of companies.


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100762 06/29/05 10:38 PM
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Axiom, SVS, Hsu, Outlaw, Aperion, AV123 and other internet companies operate with return policies. Some better, some worse, than Axioms. I looked at them all before buying Axioms. I'm really happy where I ended up.

I just know dealing with Axiom has been a pleasure. I hope they continue to prosper.



Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100763 06/30/05 02:01 AM
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"Axiom has the best customer service that I have ever experienced, period. Internet or otherwise."


AMEN Brother!!!!
At this time in history, that is a very rare thing.
Very few things in this world piss me off more than BAD CUSTOMER SERVICE!
I was beginning to think good customer service was gone forever, then I purchased from Axiom.
Thanks Ian and Amie.
You have a customer for life because of it.


LIFE IS SHORT.
DON'T BE A DICK.
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100764 06/30/05 03:33 AM
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Rats, now "I" feel bad!!

I already have my "speakers for Life" which means I won't be needing to get any more!!

How can I say "Thanx" if I make no more purchases?

Actually, I do want to upgrade my dining room system, and add speakers in the kitchen; so yeah, I guess I do need to buy more!!

I just won't have the fun of additional research, as I know exactly what I want!!

Oops, don't want to forget the 25th aniversary; there may be something new and fresh in the dining room other than the Wifes' cooking!

Last edited by F107plus5; 06/30/05 03:35 AM.
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100765 06/30/05 03:58 AM
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Out of curiosity, is there a “reward” for internet base company customer service?

I either own, or am a partner of several businesses, and I would use this company as a model for an internet sales company, were I to go that route.

I only have one suggestion….Amie / Ian, communicate future product development to your audience. You are loosing a ton of business by keeping this information too close.


Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100766 06/30/05 03:07 PM
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I bought my Axioms without ever auditioning the speakers first. A pretty bold move to spend $2600+ on speakers and never even know what they sounded like. Since Axiom does not sell its products in retail store for you to get an quick audition, I think Axiom MUST offer this kind of money back garantee. You need to make your customer feel secure about what they are spending your money on. This is the only reason I bought them without hearing them.

It was after reading these boards, that I decided to buy and have been thrilled ever since. I too considered returning my EP350 for the EP500, since the EP500 & EP600 weren't out yet when I first bought. I just decided to stick with the EP350 for awhile.

I won't deny that some may take advantage of their policies, but I bet their customer service is one of the reasons they get new customers and maintain such a loyal fan base.


Shag
Re: Are we hurting Axiom?
#100767 06/30/05 03:59 PM
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Heh, that's the same argument people make about Apple...


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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