Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Need receiver advice: Yamaha, Denon or Sunfire...

I need some steering on my choice of receiver. I just ordered and Epic 80 system with an additional QS-8 for the rear (I would rather have gone direct-radiator here, but my only placement option defeats the point).

My room is roughly 15'x23' with a vaulted ceiling (peak is 17 feet in architectural skylight wells, which are 4 feet deep at the peak... bass-sucking monsters :-)). The Epic 80 will be paired with a Sunfire True Signature, not the EP350 (which I'll be using elsewhere with my M22ti's). The Sunfire is for theater only, or at least that's my hope (having not heard the M80ti's in the room yet). Presumably I'll be using a low crossover frequency. Note that the Sunfire sub is largely a choice made by size, not just how it sounds (though I do love it for home theater).

So here's my problem... I need a new receiver. I'm currently using a Yamaha RX-V2095, which I have enjoyed but it's dated. I'd really like to have 3 progressive video inputs at 100MHz, I need all three and the RX-V2095 has none. I'd also like some more power, but that's based on my current speakers (Polk RT2000p mains, RT600i for surrounds, CS400i center). Hence it's mixed in with my beef with the Polk RT2000p mains, which is that the amps in them seem to have abysmal damping (they drive the pair of 8" woofers) so no amount of positioning gets me the bass response I want. I'm a drumset player, and few things bother me more than a muddy bass drum when I know the source has very high attack and decay rates. If it's 'thwap' on the source, that's what I want to hear when listening. I'm pretty sure the M80ti's will suit me fine here, and the Sunfire will take care of the rest. However...

How much power do I need for reference listening levels? I'm looking at the Yamaha RX-Z1, the Denon AVR-5803 and the Sunfire Ultimate Receiver. If the Yamaha will get me there, I'm tempted to go that route since it's easily the least expensive. I do worry about it being too bright with the M80ti's, but it looks like the resistor trick can solve most of that and I do have a digital EQ I can continue to use on my mains (though I'd rather leave it out if only for space in the rack). Plus I need high-hat to be crystal clear, so brightness isn't necessarily a bad thing for me (depends on where it is in the spectrum). My ideal choice looks to be the Sunfire (sans the price), but it looks like I need to drive 150 miles or so to audition one. I've auditioned the Yamaha and the Denon, but not with M80ti's and not in my room (in fact, in two different rooms, sigh). I like the headroom on the Denon, it didn't want to give up anything until very high listening levels. The Yamaha seemed weaker on this front (obviously, it has less power), but it was in a very dead room compared to my family room.

So, does anyone think I need the Denon or Sunfire, or will the Yamaha be sufficient power-wise? I'd prefer the Sunfire over the Denon for remote control reasons (I much prefer the hard buttons on the MX-500 over LCD touchscreen), and of course the extra power if I really need it. But I have no idea what it sounds like, other than what I've read in one review, nor if I need the power. Price is roughly the same for the Denon and the Sunfire.

The other major difference is that the Denon and Sunfire are Firewire-ready. However, I've yet to see a need for it. Can someone enlighten me? I haven't seen multichannel Firewire sources, do they exist?

Based on specifications they all look perfectly fine to me.

The Yamaha will probably be fine, depending on what you consider "reference levels". The Axioms are extremely efficient speakers, and don't need many watts to play loud, even in large rooms.

If you're wanting headroom in a powerful amp for home theater use, have you thought about the Outlaw 770 with a good processor? It could save you big bucks compared to the flagship receivers.

I don't know if any receiver (or even top-of-the-line processor) offers three wideband capable component video inputs. If the Denon or Sunfire offer three, that's pretty impressive.

Firewire is being proposed as a means of copy-protection-friendly digital transmission of HDTV and DVD-A material. So far, only analog connections have been allowed. I believe there is a Pioneer DVD-A that will put out the high-resolution surround mixes to a receiver through the FireWire.

Best of luck

In reply to:

---

I don't know if any receiver (or even top-of-the-line processor) offers three wideband capable component video inputs.

---

Quite a few of the line receivers from the major manufacturers offer three wideband capable component video inputs. It was the reason I chose the Denon AVR-4802.

All 3 of the receivers I'm looking at have three sets of 100MHz component video inputs. The Sunfire even has two sets of component video outs, as well as the ability to pass a 2-channel digital mixdown of multichannel sources out via S/PDIF.

The main reason I'm not doing separates in the family room is space and user-friendliness for my wife (who doesn't share my enthusiasm for electronics :-)). The Outlaw 770 is around the price of the RX-Z1 at a discount dealer (just under $2000), and with a preamp with all the surround bells and whistles (at least DD EX and DTS ES) and three 100MHz component video inputs, I think I'd go well over the price of the Denon or the Sunfire. In the long run it's potentially cheaper, but I'm not one of those people who runs out and buys a new front end every time a new surround format arrives. I don't see myself needing a better front end than that in any of these receivers for at least 5 years, if ever. I get more excited about gear for the studio than I do about the latest home theater gear. f there comes a day that I need more than 6.1, it won't be in the family room, it'll be in a dedicated viewing room. :-)

Call this crazy, but another one of my consideration is weight. The gear in the family room does need to be moved once in a while (dusting, etc.) and I already take heat for the weight of the RX-V2095. Can you imagine my wife's reaction to a 770? :-) The Sunfire is actually terribly appealing for this reason, I guess I'm gonna have to get off my butt and drive somewhere where I can audition one. Weight is also the reason I bought a Sony Grand WEGA instead of a rear projector (at the time DLP wasn't readily available, nor LCOS, etc.). It weighs in around 125 pounds, 40 pounds lighter than my 32" Sony CRT. The wife is happy, and I don't lose sleep wondering if a 400 pound rear projector is destroying the floating hardwood floor. :-)

With regard to reference listening levels... there are occasions when I want 100+dB peaks with 2-channel sources. I'm not overly concerned with any of these receivers for movies, the real power I need there is taken care of by the Sunfire True Signature. Yes, it's scary to think of someone listening at those levels, but some of my snare drums peak at greater than 100dB on a good rim shot (at my ear). Very short attack and decay, not unlike a gunshot, and I want to be able to get somewhere near that when I'm listening to a favorite piece or watching an instructional video (whether it's Carmine Appice, Terry Bozzio, Billy Cobham, ....). Obviously I don't listen at these levels often (and wear ear protection when I'm playing the drumset that loud), but I don't want my gear to prevent me from indulging myself for short periods once in a while (favorite 12 bars of a song, etc.). i.e. there are times I want to feel like the drummer is in the room with me.

Don't know what all features you want, but the 3 component video ins does limit things a bit. Also consider the excellent Pioneer 47TX, which you can get for about $1,600-$1,700(63 lbs.; tell her that you'll dust around it). So far as going to audition a receiver, despite the "trust your ears" mantra we often hear,I don't think much is learned in the process.

Oops...

Foot on mouth yet again.

Oh, well...didn't know about the flagship receivers having the 3 inputs. Most of the "real world" receivers tend to max out at 2 wideband inputs, as do a lot of processors.

Incidentally, I have to express jealousy over your choice of TVs...after my wife and child, the Grand Wegas are just about the most beautiful things I've ever seen.

In reply to:

---

So far as going to audition a receiver, despite the "trust your ears" mantra we often hear, I don't think much is learned in the process.

---

I am basically with JohnK on this one. Yes, you will occasionally be able to hear the real difference between today's receivers/amps. However, in order to "convincingly" evaluate the difference, I would say you have to:

(1) Have instantaneous A/B comparisons driving the receivers with the same source material. Many large, chain-store dealers have this facility, but the equipment selector (which is often "digital" these days) takes more than a few seconds to switch between receivers, and even this significantly impairs your ability to tell the difference. A major problem in the in-home auditioning is that very few people actually bother to have selector switches that enable instantaneous A/B comparisons (despite the fact that they are fairly cheap). Without doing so, you are more likely to hear the difference in the psycho-auditory processing in your own brain, rather than the physical difference between the receivers. The problem is, the processing in your brain is so powerful that you will hear the difference almost inevitably. Serious!

(2) Set the volume level exactly identical between the receivers being tested. In an A/B comparison, you are extremely sensitive for minute changes in sound levels, the slightly louder equipment often giving a more favorable impression. When you A/B audition at your dealer, you have to bring (or borrow) a test-tone DVD and an SPL meter to calibrate the volume level down to +/- 0.5 dB or so with respect to all channels/speakers (and while calibrating, of course you should set the channel delays and speaker settings [large/small etc] correctly and identical between the receivers, too). Without doing so, you risk yourself to evaluating the receivers based on a minute difference in the sound level.

(3) Set all of the sound "features" to default or neutral. Today's receivers have so many sound features, some of which may be hidden deep in the menus/controls and left "on." These will have profound (readily audible -- if not, why bother having them?) effects on their sound, and you do not want to base your evaluation of the "pure" or basal sound quality of the DSPs/amps on the effectiveness/quality of their sound features. Of course, the evaluation of the sound effects itself is a totally separate matter, and the quality and repertoire of these "features" may well be much more important for you in the end.

These are a heck of tasks. I tend not to trust any comparative listening reviews unless these aspects are explicitly incorporated in their testing, which is very rare.

Hence my focus on the power. :-) They're all going to sound a lot different in my room than they do in the store, and of course none of the stores have Axioms so you could basically write off the whole in-store sound quality comparison but for any blatant problems like audible noise, pop when the power is turned on, etc. None of these receivers should have those kinds of problems. I asked my original questions in hopes of not finding myself making three round-trips to the stores (bringing a different receiver home each time). I'm pretty sure the Denon will do the job admirably power-wise, but I'm not sure about the Yamaha. I question the Sunfire mostly because of the unconventional power supply (and no specs on output impedance or damping factor makes me question whether or not it's going to yield a sloppy bottom on the M80ti's). Bass drum thwap is important to me, I'd likely be really disappointed if I found the amp spilling its guts at high listening levels and exhibiting not-so-good slew rate and damping factor. One side of me is probably fishing for an excuse for more power :-), but I'd love to save $900 or more if I could (and just get the Yamaha). If money was out of the equation, I'd probably just buy the Sunfire (if money was no object, I could just buy the Denon too if the Sunfire didn't make me squeal with glee :-)).

In a nutshell, I guess the questions come down to "Is the Yamaha a waste of my time due to power requirements?" or conversely "Are the Denon and Sunfire serious overkill on power?"

I'm going to wait until after I've had the new speakers for a while on my current amp before deciding. If I conclude that my current receiver can handle it, it'll be a no-brainer (since it's weaker than all 3 of the new prospects). But I really doubt that's going to happen, since I'm not happy with the power from my current receiver and the Polk RT2000i's are similar in efficiency to the M80ti's (by specs, which could be misleading). It was more than sufficient for the room for which I originally bought it (our previous home's family room was smaller and had 8' ceilings), but it (and the RT2000p amps) fall short in our current family room.

The Sunfire True Signature seems to be perfect in our family room power-wise, maybe even a tad over the top. If it weren't for the deep near-room-length skylight wells and other openings, I think it'd be overkill for the room. But it's a different part of the story since I plan to only use it for movies, it's self-powered, and it's almost out of the equation for my desire for tight bass. Right now, the room seems capable of supporting tight bass, it's quite good up until the RT2000p's start fluttering and the Yamaha amp starts running out of gas (ruining the whole listening experience even if the bass is still tight :-)). An advantage of having the high arched ceiling and lots of openings, I guess (make speaker placement a lot harder though; the QS-8's are going to be an interesting problem :-)). Little did my wife know that part of my choice our skylight well design was acoustic. :-) Unfortunately I don't know if this helps anyone get an idea of where I am in terms of pwoer needs. The room is drywall all around but for the brick fireplace dead center on the left (brick is exposed all the way to the ceiling), the 2 sets of french doors on the left wall on each side of the fireplace (mostly glass) and the windows behind the TV (not much of a factor due to its position; the TV covers the whole thing). There's a window-like opening into the kitchen on the right wall that's near the front and about 4 feet off the floor (the family room is about 12" lower than the kitchen), and an 8'x8' opening to the kitchen on the right wall in the rear (making for lots of fun positioning the right surround). There's a short (maybe 10 feet) hallway in the center of the rear wall that leads straight back (making for lots of fun positioning a rear speaker for 6.1 sources :-)). The floor is an engineered ash (Kahr's Ash London), but it's almost all covered by a thick wool oriental rug (but for the area behind the listening position, which is not covered; the rear tends toward 'live'). There are 2 full-size leather sofas in the room, a big dog bed, a large travertine coffee table (300 lbs, practically dead center of the room), a smaller slate tile coffee table, a couple of barstools and a bistro table on the back wall, a pair of hardwood audio cabinets in the rear right corner, and half a dozen large plants. There's a good amount of room effect for mids and highs behind the listener, but in the front things are pretty straight, probably due to the rug and pad underneath it and the fact that the ceiling climbs away from the mains (it's practically impossible to get a loud first reflection from above from the mains to the listening position). Real problem areas would include lack of room to bring the mains more than a few feet from the front wall, so much stuff on the front wall that there are only a few left-to-right positions (two Bell'O ATC-2052MC and the Grand WEGA on an AVSC-2051MC consume much of the front wall), the aforementioned surround positioning issues (largely irrelevant to the receiver selection), and a tendency toward less room effect at lower frequencies than is typical of other rooms I've used for listening.

I'll post again after I've run the Epic 80 system on my current receiver. I can't wait for it to arrive!