Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater More distortion with 4ohm?

I must admit that I would not consider taking that position. However, the person you name has access to areas of this industry many of us do not. I have spent a lot of time, effort and money in this hobby, consider some of the industries designers friends and foes, and consider myself no greater an expert than the next person.

Again we must remember that this is a subjective hobby, and there is great fun to be had by investigating and making your own judgements.

Coffee expert huh? Perhaps you can post a review of listening to Jazz while enjoying different blends! ;)

Regards,

BBIBH

That's interesting to me too, as I thought of JVC as a "mid-fi" brand at their best, ranging to low-end at some of the mass-market stores. But I have seen good reviews of some of their products before. Since none of the mass-market stores stock the receiver models I was looking at, I kind of figured that they were the "higher end" of JVC. Has anyone seen any head-to-head comparisons of "higher-end" mass market receivers to the "lower-end" audiophile brands? Since it seems to me like these are basically the same price range, but you may get more "features" (like the THX-ultra for example) on the expensive mass market brands.

Also, to get THX Ultra certification, doesn't a receiver have to pass a certain set of criteria - power supply, etc. to satisfy the THX people? In other words, would the construction of a THX Ultra certified JVC receiver need to be any better than a run-of-the-mill JVC receiver, or is the certification meaningless from that standpoint?

This is my understanding of the THX Ultra certification: products that are certified have to have their ability to produce sound that is a "virtual home version of cinema reprodcution". By prodcuing equipment that duplicates large scale cinema sound in your much smaller (for most people anyway) rooms. These THX branding can be applied to amps, speakers, cables (yes it is true...), and most pieces in HT. For receivers and loudspeakers, the "THX Select" certification is for components that are certified to perform in a mid-sized home theater environment of up to 3,000 cubic feet. The volume of a room, expressed in cubic feet, is computed by multiplying the length by the width by the height of the room. (For example, a room that is 18 feet wide by 14 feet wide by 9 feet high, has a volume of 18 x 14 x 9 = 2,268 cubic feet.) The more stringent "THX Ultra" certification (which is equivalent to the original, plain "THX" certification) is given to components that meet the THX performance standards for larger (than 3,000 cubic feet) home theater environments.

Theoretically, if you have a home theater environment that is 3,000 cubic feet or less, "THX Select" receivers and speakers should deliver about the same presentation standards as the higher-rated "THX Ultra" components. For other components such as preamplifiers, power amplifiers, DVD players, the certification is just known as "THX Ultra" (or equivalently just "THX") certification. There are no "THX Select" certification for these types of components.

Interms of designs, these pieces seemingly would be better built than other pieces in the same lineup. The meaning of "Audiophile" is very subjective, and you and I might differ as to where that quality started and which manufacturers are included. Let me say this, high end manufacturers do not typically offer "Receivers". Midfi manufacturers do offer them, and low fi make a substantial number of them. You are also correct that manufacturers may offer different levels of there product at diffferent outlets. Pioneer, Sony and others sell their "upscale" model in different stores in some cases. But this is no different than Honda and Acura. They typically cater to differing demographics.

While I mentioned that "audiophile - hifi" manufacturers do not offer receivers, they can and do offer certified THX pieces. Some of the worlds best offer processors, amps, speakers, etc wih the THX certification ( B&K, Lexicon, Mark Levinson, Bryston, Meridian) to name a few.

JVC does not belong in that list on any level.

Regards,

BBIBH

This has been very educational for me. I have learned more in the last few weeks from this and other message boards about audio than I eve knew. As you may have guessed, I am taking my first tentative steps into the exploration of "audiophilia," having always loved good sound, and never having the budget or research resources to explore it. I have always been satisfied with the cheap widely available components because for the most part, it was all I knew and they were still better than what I had. I appreciate the knowledge, information, and patience of those on this and other message boards willing to share with me.


So, my new questions - Many people here and elsewhere talk glowingly of Denon and Onkyo products. Where would you say those fit into the spectrum of audio/video products? From price/features/specs alone, it seems that they overlap with mass market products as well as higher end companies.


Second, you mentioned that audiophile brands don't produce receivers, but I have found reviews for B&K AV receivers, Arcam receivers and some others. Would these be inferior to the separates offered by the same companies in your opinion? And, would they be equal or superior to similarly priced offerings from Denon/Onkyo or the JVC-type crowd?


Of course, this all may be moot, since the AV-THX receivers from Denon, Onkyo, and B&K (I think I really like this one!) are all significantly out of my price range. But I figure, I can at least educate myself in preparation for the NEXT system upgrade! Thanks in advance.

Welcome to the wonderful hobby of audio! I think you hit on a very important point when you said you " ...it was all I knew". Most people should go to a true hifi dealer, and listen. Don't take the dealers word that this sounds good, listen - if you think it sounds good...it does! Some people are so intimidated by a dealer exclaming hifi sound, that they are afraid to say they don't like it. They either buy something they don't like (hating themselves and the dealer), or they leave with a bad impression.

The companies you have found receivers for are midfi companies. There products out perform the JVC's, etc at almost every point - except for radical AV/HT features. In my opinion, these companies are aiming to make a presence in the respective markets. In terms of product quality, many principles used in the separates they offer would undoubtedly make it into these products. Would they be inferior to separates they offer? Probably yes, and only because the separates may be aimed at the music market, and they need to build AV/HT features. As we all know, these are different markets in terms of what the consumer wants, needs and will spend money on. As an aside, some of the better pieces are processors, connected to amps. This is similar to theather setups. One of the most interesting sites I ever saw was the inside of an IMAX setup. If you get an opportunity, ask for a tour! I was working on some hi tech designs inside an IMAX, and loved the sound gear!

You love the B&K? I rather like that as well. Another user hear has an older one, but he has not said much about the quality(we have been exchanging private messages about things). There is another piece that excites me, the SimAudio Attraction. Check THAT monster out! By the way, SimAudio makes some of the best amplifiers I have ever had the privilege of working/listening to.

The key concept to remember is that audio is not a goal. It is a journey. As soon as you get content with a system, chances are you will find another piece that you like better. This can be on purpose, or by accident.

You ask about Denon and Onkyo and in the same thought mention "higher end". The term higher end would be subjective. There are companies slightly higher end, or vastly higher end. I will make this distinction - lowfi (mass market-to be polite) midfi(good quality) hifi(exceptional sounding equipment). Denon and Onkyo are squarely in the lowfi realm, with some pieces approaching midfi. Do not take that as a condemnation of the products, as they are aimed at this market, and designed EXACTLY as they need to be. They do however, have no place in a hifi system - midfi maybe, but not likely.

Regards,

BBIBH

Chris,
I currently have the Axiom VP150 with the QS8s and the M80Ti towers. This setup is amazing, it produces tons of very deep bass yet remains clean all the way to the top. I have not found any speakers that come close to the sound you get from this package without spending 3 times the money. Since speakers won't become outdated by new audio formats (ProLogic, DD, DTS, DTS-EX DD-EX) you may better served by buying the top of the line speakers now and saving your money for the high-end receiver later. If you haven't looked at the outlaw audio receiver yet you can find them on-line at www.outlawaudio.com, they have a very good receiver for only $499. It is not the ultimate piece, but will serve you well until you get the rest of the cash to do the major upgrade.

Just a thought,
Greg

So what makers do you really believe are good to very good? Not limiting this to home theater, what should I buy?

Rick

You need to temper what you buy with your own factors - budget, and what you have heard that you like.

I can dump a list of products I own and recommend, but chances are that you might not like the sounds, look, or the price tag of.

I have preached this before - source quality is where to start. Speaker can in no way add information that your source can not read from the media and supply to the amplifier!
This is a subjective hobby, and I might like something you don't. Neither of us is wrong, just differ in our opinions.

Regards,

BBIBH

BIBBH,

You mentioned:

"You ask about Denon and Onkyo and in the same thought mention "higher end". The term higher end would be subjective. There are companies slightly higher end, or vastly higher end. I will make this distinction - lowfi (mass market-to be polite) midfi(good quality) hifi(exceptional sounding equipment). Denon and Onkyo are squarely in the lowfi realm, with some pieces approaching midfi. Do not take that as a condemnation of the products, as they are aimed at this market, and designed EXACTLY as they need to be. They do however, have no place in a hifi system - midfi maybe, but not likely."

Can I ask where you would slot in Yamaha? I have an AX-596 integrated (2x100), that I've had for a while. Eventually, when budget permits, I'd like to upgrade that system to mid-hi-fi seperates. Nevertheless, I'd like to hear your opinion on Yamaha - please be brutally honest (I don't mind).

Thanks, Wally

**In my opinion...gee, I seem to be starting a lot of posts that way ;)

The only Yamaha musical piece I would consider is their Grand Piano.

This manufacturer slots below Onkyo and Denon, near JVC. They, as have all mass market manufacturers, have made better quality equipment over the past decade. This can be attributed to some of the designs and technologies becoming more cost effective, and in line with the target price point.

As I scan the spec/feature sheet, I am struck by the fact they choose to highlight things such as "Twin Heavy-Duty Aluminum-Extruded Heat Sinks for Efficient Heat Dissipation" and "Gold-Plated Input Terminals", these are not features, they are the minimum requirements for building ANY piece of stereo gear. If these are not present (heatsinks and gold plated terminals), the piece should be avoided. In better equipment, these are a given.

Regards,

BBIBH