Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions speaker positioning?

I have a question about speaker positioning. Do think it is better to have the two main speakers closer together as opposed to too close to walls? Currently, my M60's are only about 5 1/2 feet apart and the listening position is about 13 feet away. I'm not quite satisfied with the stereo separation this way although it's livable. I had found a possibile way to position them further apart but the left speaker would be practically against the side wall (about 2" and 15" from the rear wall). I have a feeling that reflections from the walls might cause even more dissatifying results than keeping them closer together. Before I tore apart the system, I wanted to ask first whether this would be worth the attempt or not.

Thanks!

Yeah, I can imagine that your current placement may provide a less than impressive soundstage. Although I would be concerned with the side wall, too, I would go ahead and try it! It is very difficult to predict the results without actually experimenting on the placement.

Mary, unless you move your listening position closer your M60s should be separated by at least 10 feet and toed-in slightly so that the tweeters point at your ears. Another basic positioning rule is that the distance from the woofer cones to the floor and each of the two nearest walls should be unequal. It should be okay to have one of those three distances very short, but experiment.

I struggle with this issue. I have a bigscreen TV, but it's not massive. It's a slightly older 4:3 53" Sony. With the speakers off on the corner, providing a wide sound stage, sounds just aren't placed right. I feel like there's a huge hole between just off screen where positional audio would be directed at the individual speaker and where the sound is coming from. It seems thrown. However, with the speakers closer to the TV, the room just isn't enveloped.

So far, the only solution I've been able to come up with is a projector and a massive screen... :/

That's a pretty tough solution to debate there Semi.
Big screen?
Hmm.
Yep, that's a two second head scratcher.

YES, Semi, another big advantage of front projection! -- No big, reflective, and possibly resonating box right in the middle of your soundstage!!!

Believe me, I've read ALL about speaker positioning! Unfortunately, the "rules" cannot apply to my situation. First of all, I've decided to put up a link to a picture of the current setup so you know where I'm coming from:

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=2306538

The TV is a great big 61" Sony. The center channel is up really high compared to the front speakers, but I used a doorstop to prop up the back to angle it down (I got that idea from someone else here!). It sounds great that way. By the way, the speakers are about 15 inches from the back wall and about two inches in front of the TV.

Anyway, what I was planning on doing was putting together a couple of sets of adjustable wire shelving (I'm cheap...fancy audio racks are way too expensive!) like what I have now except these would be square units. Since they would be square units, I would have room to place one on each side of the TV and then place the speakers on the ends. This would put the speakers about 8 feet apart, but as you can see, the left speaker would be only a couple of inches away from the side wall while remaininf 15 inches from the back wall. I'm just afraid that crowding the left speaker too much might change it too sonically due to those darn walls. I should mention as well that the chair to the left would be removed. The right speaker would have to remain where it is.

Also, moving the system to a different part of the room is not an option in my case. I've also tried moving the listening position closer (due to the "rules") but the couch ends up in the middle of the room and the center channel way over my head. So, what I'm getting at is whether or not it is worth moving all that stuff (oh..the dreaded wires!). Even experimenting would be a pain because I would still have to move all that equiptment out. My curiousity might get the best of me however. I would be quite disappointed if the results didn't bring me more happiness!

Hopefully, I'm not being a pain in the ass for bothering you guys with this dilemma...just wondering what you would do in the same situation.

Thanks again!

Sonic,
You and i are in the same boat.
It appears that the audio equipment and wall width is really a limitation in our respective rooms.



I cannot move my speakers due to the wall distance and tv size (the right M60 is 5 inches from the wall on its right, both M60s are 6-8 inches from the back wall and spaced 5.5 feet apart while my viewing position is a whopping 8 feet from the Toshiba tv).
Moving the subwoofer did not have a very positive effect on the low end so it has to stay where it is.
I have tried one thing for a little while that was interesting, swapping the location of the left speaker and my audio 'rack'
(Sushi, please now note what i was getting at in regards to the low and awkward ceiling negating installation of overhead projector...there are heating ducts running all through that cheap amateur drywall overhang).



However, the problem i then encountered was with the home theatre design. Music sounded great, wider soundstage with the extended distance between the 2 M60s however the left speaker was now much further offset from the tv which means i had an imbalance in sound when watching movies.

So what did i do?
Nothing really.

I moved the left speaker back to its position you can see in the picture and i'm grumping about moving to a new place.
Sometimes there may not actually be a solution.

In your case i would do exactly what you are thinking of doing. Shorten up the width of your audio rack and space out the 2 M60s evenly on either side of the tv with the racks next to the tv itself.
You may get a bit more squished with the speakers closer to the walls but generally speaking, the extra bass i've noticed has not been distracting in any way and oddly enough, there are no extra 'echoes' off my concrete walls.
Maybe i've already reached the maximum echo possible in that room. I'm sure the light berber carpet helps. I think you will find the extra width between those M60s makes a bigger difference than the potential effect of having them closer to the walls.

sonicfox,

In fact, when I saw the photo you linked (even before I read through your post), I immediately thought that I would do just what you described. Of course I cannot guarantee the results, but if I were to bet, I would bet you would get a significant improvement.

chess,

I haven't given it up! HAHAHA... How about placing the projector on a table or stand behind the couch? (I remember you have there an exercise space or something...)

Okay, Mary, looking at your picture I think what you propose for the racks and the left speaker would be fine(it's easier for me to move them than it will be for you). Although I can't tell from the picture, couldn't the right speaker also be moved about 2 feet wider? Then, if you do make the change, the TV should be centered.

Chess, suggested setup # 37(or thereabouts)for you. EP350 snug in left corner;left M60 directly in front of it about 2 feet from wall behind and 5 inches from left wall; right M60 likewise moved out to about 2 feet; rack(as shown in 2nd picture)as far to the left and close to the EP350 as possible; TV re-centered; couch moved back about 2 feet.

Did you get a new digital camera for the second pic? If so, what is it? What a night and day difference between those two pics.

Sushi,
Take a look at this 'old' couch panorama pic and you will see why i cannot use the exercise area for the projector (it would
have to project down the hallway, you would have to duck your head under it to get to the laundry room and its
picture placement would be VERY off centred on the tv wall).



JohnK,
Chek out the same picture above. There are stairs directly behind my couch and then only a hallway
beside that. There is no where to move my couch and hence, moving the M60s
out further will place them 6 feet from my viewing spot with no change in couch
position possible (left, right, backward or forward).
Note the coffee table also in front of the couch. A necessity.

I told you this was an awkward room.
We are still shocked that the 50" Toshiba even made the turn down the stairs into the basement.

fhw,
The second picture in yesterdays post was taken with a WEBCAM if you can believe it (the Creative Labs PCcam 600).
The first picture (and the one in this post) was taken with a very expensive digivid cam in still shot mode.
It obviously takes better video than it does stills.
The only problem with the PCcam is that you cannot take close shots (must be
further than at least 3 feet from your subject) so as cameras go, it is really only
useful for large or stand back type images. Using it for ebay snaps of a sale item is just useless
as you can see in this shot of my Harmon Kardon 380i receiver that drives my home office Tannoys.

My apologies jbz.
I replied to you as "fhw" in my last post.
I think Semi has passed along some kind of naming disease. Who says only Canadians are infected eh?

In reply to:

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I think Semi has passed along some kind of naming disease. Who says only Canadians are infected eh?

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My subtle destruction of Canadia has begun!

chess,

You just don't convince me to give it up! HEH-HEH-HEH...

(1) Who cares if one has to duck down when passing the line of projection? How many times do you or your partner have to go to bathroom or laundry or wherever during a movie show? It's not a commercial theater. My projector is table-mounted near the back wall of the busy living room (this was necessary to maximize the benefits of the retro-reflective screen I bought) -- every time somebody has to go somewhere, he/she will cross the light, and nobody cares!

(2) The off-center issue will NOT kill the possibilities at all. Quite a few projectors (including the excellent $1500 Sanyo Z1) has the nifty "lens-shift" feature exactly for the situation like yours, which allows the projector to throw slightly sideways (or upward/downward), without keystoning. It is done all optically, so no digital correction involved. Even if the projector do not have lens-shift, you can always corrent the keystone digitally...

In reply to:

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Who cares if one has to duck down when passing the line of projection?

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My wife.

In reply to:

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How many times do you or your partner have to go to bathroom or laundry or wherever during a movie show?

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Me...none.
The wife...about twenty.
She loves tea and has a bladder the size of a walnut.


Send me some info or webpage on this Sanyo. It sounds interesting, although still highly improbable considering the Toshiba is brand new and really quite fulfilling. I've never seen heads so big in all my life.

Hi Chess,

I think that I'm going to have a similar problem with bass by moving my subwoofer out of the corner...and it's not a very good one to begin with (10" driver Polk Audio). It's kind of non-existent when away from the corner. However, I just might be able to keep it in the corner right behind the left speaker as long as I turn it to the side. The sub box is different than most...more rectangular in shape and the port is underneath it dispursing air onto a platform, so I'm assuming this will work out OK. It won't be the best, but better than away from the corner.

Anyway, thanks for all the input. I think that I'm going to give the new setup a try. When I do, I'll provide an updated photo.

Mary

chess,

Here are a couple of reviews on the Sanyo PLV-Z1 projector...

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_2/sanyo-z1-projector-4-2003.html
http://www.projectorcentral.com/sanyo_plv_z1.htm

Here are some info on Sanyo's site...

http://www.sanyo.com/business/office/projectors/home_theater/index.cfm?productID=445
http://www.sanyo.com/business/office/projectors/home_theater/downloads/PLV_Z1_Spec.PDF

Oh, and do not forget this "highly recommended" list...

http://www.projectorcentral.com/recommended-home-theater-projectors.htm

Sonic.. Isn't it amazing, that after all the trouble and money to get a reallllly nice big screen, you find out how realllllly difficult it is to arrange the speakers, t/v, and componets ??? It's been driving me nuts for months..
I have even gone so far as to hang my M80's from the ceiling ! (It didnt work.. Sounded like crap-ola)
I wish I could cut out some space under the screen, where the factory speakers are located, and stash the VP150 there..
I guess you can say, we all have a love hate relationship when it comes to our stereo/t.v habbit.. Er, I mean, hobby..

Much obliged Sushi.
Now if only i didn't have to work tomorrow, i would actually have enough time to read all this within the next week.

I'm still debating between the Sanyo PLV Z1 and Panny 300. As much as a RPTV is the most economical; the size of a RPTV is little to be desired.
Since my sitting position of about 11-13 feet from the screen. The PLV is in the brink of having pixalation at about 11-12 feet sitting position for a 100" screen. I would need to drop it to 80 inches and with a little softening to get a less pixelated picture. I do know if the added $850+ CDN price for the Panny 300 is worth it?Although the Panny would not give me that pixelation issue until I sit less than 8 feet. Doesn't this audio/video spending thing ever stop?

Saturn

ps: Chess those TB2's I ordered has been on a slow boat from Chin...err....England and I have been pulling by hair out the last 2.5 weeks in anticipation to just demo them. I listened to some Eyris models. Looked good sounded okey. The Mercury MX series is where its at. They were great. Detail with no ear fatigue. A little more laid back than the PMC. The PMC though are metal tweets watcha expect. Any metal tweet or driver can be sometimes too forward and harsh. What some people tend to call "detail"

hello this is my first post,hope it helps try to raise your m60s on a decent pair of stands to get your tweeters from your center to line up as close as you can heightwise,i notice when the tweeters are in line the soundstage improves drasticly. it may even give some reflection off the wall behind your couch instead of getting absorbed .use boxes to try it,you got nothing to lose.......ron