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Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need help
#104405 07/13/05 07:30 PM
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Hello all- As always, I'm going crazy trying to get my system to sound as good as it can WITHOUT HAVING TO TWEAK RECEIVER/SPEAKER SETTING ANYMORE!! Okay, now that that is out of my system, on to the basics:

I have M60/VP150/2xQS8/EP500
I have a Yamaha RX V2400
My room is 20x20x10 (Half cube- Yes I know.....)
My EP500 is set on "flat" and at about 1/3 volume w/the crossover bypassed on the sub.

Now to the issues. If I use auot setup on Yamaha, I consistently get the Fronts, Center, and Rears at nearly max channel trim (+10) and the sub at minimum channel trim (-10), I get Fronts as "large", and the crossover is different every time.

With all this said, I had chosen to bypass Yamaha's auto setup and do it myself. For movies I set everything to small and 80hz crossover, Bass out to sub. For music, I use only the M/60's and EP500 set crossover at 60hz and Bass out to BOTH (this sounds better to me).

Here are my questions:

Based on above information, am I doing anything inaccurately?

When I manually try to set level w/SPL, where do I start the overall receiver volume?

Seems like if I use my personal listening level, I get similar result to auto setup which is all channels maxed out and sub near bottom. That just doesn't seem right for there to be a 20 db difference.

Should I calibrate all channels INCLUDING THE SUB to 75 db? Or just the non sub channels?

W/M60's should I use 80 hz or 60hz? I can only pick one xover for all my speakers (Damn 2400- Where's my HK?)

I know this is quite a bit, but I'm ready to set it and stop stressing about the receiver settings and start thinking about a television upgrade........

Thanks as always for each of your help. You guys are great.


M60 VP150 2x QS8 EP500 HK 7300 DENON DVD-3910 Sony 60" SXRD
Re: Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need help
#104406 07/13/05 07:58 PM
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Try a 80hz crossover. Set the volume knob so you are at 75db at the left main speaker and calibrate clockwise(L/C/R/RS/LS etc.). It's possible due to equipment placement, sensitivity and room effects that you may end up with those trim levels being as far apart from each other as they are.

In the end, if it sounds good, don't worry about trim levels. They're there to give you that adjustment.

Re: Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need help
#104407 07/13/05 09:42 PM
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Should the sub also be only 75 db? Thanks again.


M60 VP150 2x QS8 EP500 HK 7300 DENON DVD-3910 Sony 60" SXRD
Re: Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need help
#104408 07/13/05 10:30 PM
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Yes, like the rest of the speakers, the sub should be set to 75 dB...................................at first. Once you've got all the speakers (sub included) matched at 75 dB, adjust to your personal taste. I run my sub hotter, and my center a couple of dB hotter.

Regarding where to set the receiver's volume knob when calibrating: There should be some indication of your receiver's reference point. My Onkyo allows me to select one of two scales for my volume readout. One scale ranges from 0 (no volume) to 100. As I go up the scale it reads 80, 81, REF, 83 84, etc. So, obviously 82 is the reference point, and where I set my receiver when I calibrate to 75.

The other scale runs from -82dB to +18dB, 0 being the reference point. While it is not necessary to set your receiver at it's reference point when calibrating, I think it's a good idea.




Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need help
#104409 07/13/05 10:42 PM
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If I can use only 1 crossover for all speakers/all inputs, is 60 too low for the VP150 and QS8's? When I listen to 2 channel, I go to 60, but that seems low for the mid and rears for 5.1 or PLII.


M60 VP150 2x QS8 EP500 HK 7300 DENON DVD-3910 Sony 60" SXRD
Re: Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need help
#104410 07/13/05 10:50 PM
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I run everything at 80 Hz. I think that would be better than everything at 60Hz. Just my opinion.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need help
#104411 07/13/05 11:39 PM
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I have played around with different crossover/small/large settings. Lately I've just left everything set to small, with an 80hz crossover on the receiver. On the sub you should have the crossover know turned all the way clockwise, to get it out of the way. I have found my Denon autosetup to be pretty close. Like Jack, I have my center bumped up a few notches as movie dialog sometimes seems quiet, depending on the movie.

Many have stated that music is better at 60hz crossover. I've tried it both ways. I think I like 80hz a little better, as the sub seems to do better reproducing the LFE to me. Also, 80hz is pretty low anyway, and it is not like it just cuts off at 80hz, there is a slope where it blends.


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85


Re: Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need help
#104412 07/13/05 11:51 PM
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There is always the Outlaw Icbm that will let ya set each speakers crossover.


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need help
#104413 07/14/05 12:07 AM
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man the more you guys talk about Outlaw options, the more I get upgradeitis. I like my setup, but always wonder what a few mono's would do for me, or now the ICBM's

denon 2805
axiom 60's 150 350 4-Qs8's
sanyo z2 projector
panasonic S97 HDMI DVD



M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85


Re: Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need help
#104414 07/14/05 12:18 AM
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I'm not familar with their amps,but the Icbm was a must for me for my 2.1 set up.The Rotel preamp has no bass management.If I were to have a receiver that would only do one crossover setting for all speakers I would seriously consider an Icbm for bm duties.There you could select a specific setting for each speaker based on it's specs.


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need help
#104415 07/14/05 01:13 AM
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Maybe Christmas for the ICBM. Been told. "Enough".

Re: Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need help
#104416 07/14/05 02:18 AM
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DK, I have a few comments. I'd use YPAO, but set it to skip the speaker size and crossover settings and manually set those at all small and 80Hz crossover. Your M60s have good bass, but your EP500 is even better, so you should let it do most of the work up to 80Hz. For a similar reason, I question the BOTH setting, but if you really like it better it's your choice, of course. The minimum -10 trim on the sub is worrisome, and even though you say that the volume control on the sub is only at about 1/3rd, try it even a little lower to see if the receiver sub trim moves up into a measurable range above the minimum -10.


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need
#104417 07/14/05 02:46 AM
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I second that advice about the sub volume control.

I had similar problems with 3805 autosetup. When My Sub volume is high (in my case 10 o'clock) the autosetup maxed all and did not seem to work properly. When I reduced that to 9 o'clock it worked much better. Now my speakers all have different settings and it sets the sub at -6. I manually raise the Sub by 1 DB though.

I find that the Auto setup yields very similar results to the Manual setup using RS Meter.


------ M80, VP150, QS8 Surr, QS8 Back Surr Sunfire Amp -M80, Denon 3805 -all else, SVS 20-39 PC+
Re: Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need
#104418 07/14/05 03:30 AM
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That's pretty much the way mine's set.

Re: Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need
#104419 07/14/05 10:55 AM
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darthkringle:

As already commented by some, the Outlaw ICBM will help a lot.

I had a similar problem with my NAD T163 and the EP500 (setting the speakers too high and the sub too low, in less than 1/4 of the volume knob).

Then I got the Outlaw ICBM, and the magic was done. Now I have the sub almost at half volume, and 1/4 in the Outlaw ICBM sub level. So, for music I do not output to the sub via the receiver but setting all the speakers to large and letting the ICBM work its magic. For movies, I use the .1 sub out (LFE) from the T163 to the ICBM and, again, the independent LFE-subwoofer levels control its awesome...

I highly recommend the ICBM for issues like the one you are facing.... believe me, I post before for help, call for help, and it got better thanks to the knowledgeable people here in this board, but with the ICBM is the difference between hell and heaven...

Now all my speakers are close to 0dB.

Good Luck.

Re: Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need help
#104420 07/14/05 10:36 PM
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Okay guys- Hate to appear ignorant, but what is the Outlaw ICBM? I saw there site and it is only $249. Will this help me w/2 channel music as well? How does it hook up to the receiver. Thanks again to all for feedback!!


M60 VP150 2x QS8 EP500 HK 7300 DENON DVD-3910 Sony 60" SXRD
Re: Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need
#104421 07/15/05 01:05 AM
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The ICBM is a very nice piece of equipment. Its worth to read the manual, it is very easy to understand.

I will say that you must download the manual, as the answers to your questions are there, about hooking it up, and 2 channel use.



Re: Going insane w/Bass Mgmt and SPL issues. Need
#104422 07/15/05 01:44 PM
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To use the ICBM do I have to have separates? In looking at the manual, it appears you need both a pre-amp and an amp. Can I use this w/a Rxv2400 only?


M60 VP150 2x QS8 EP500 HK 7300 DENON DVD-3910 Sony 60" SXRD
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