Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners 80's or 60's????

Hey everyone. I need some advice...go with the 80's or 60's. I'm not too concerned about the price difference. I'll be running them as fronts with a Rotel 1056 receiver(for now, until I get an amp for them.) What is the general consensus? Why go with one versus the other? Any help would be appreciated!

The quick answer is M80s play louder, fill big rooms better, and handle more power. They also go a bit deeper into the bass but this is only really an issue for a stereo system without a sub.

People who have heard both (I have not) tend to slightly prefer the 80s claiming there is a bit more clarity in the midrange. I don't know if any of them have had a chance to directly A/B the two though...

Axiom folks (who DO have the ability to A/B test them at any time) say that nowadays the two speakers sound VERY similar and that the main reason for choosing one over the other would be (a) M80s can play louder, (b) M60s are 8 ohm so any receiver can drive them.

M80s are a bit bigger (taller and deeper) and so might look out of place in a small room.

If you're not too concerned with the price, then go with the best, the M80s.

I have a pair and I think that you will like them just fine.

If you have the space go for the 80's.

In my Room, I need to sit at least 10 feet or more to get proper imaging. But it is the sweetest speaker I have ever heard.

All the best.

M80's.

Yes

So far I'm leaning towards the 80's! Any other thoughts! I really want to get these baby's ordered today. Let me change things up a little. What if I told you I was considering the 80's vs B&W 604 S4's, or Paradigm Studio 100's? Any thoughts? I sure appreciate it!

Hi Jrh;

I have M60s and I am very happy with them. I always wonder if I should have chosen M80s instead, and would probably have gotten them if I had to do this over. Get M80s!! No remorse later, and bigger does not hurt, as long as they are told to sound the same.

I have listened to both the speakers you mentioned. I found B&W 6xx series too much laid back for the music I listen to (different story with their 703s). Studios 100 are great, but twice as more expensive than 80s. Axioms really give you the best bang for the buck.

A question for you: As you can see below, I use Rotel gear for a stereo setup. Sooner or later, I will build my HT with Axiom and Rotel. I see that you have RSX-1056, and I know that it will do a great job for HT, but am not sure that its performance for 2 channel would be as good as the one I have now. Have you had the chance to compare the 2 channel performance of RSX-1056 with an outboard amp like RB-1080 vs. RSP-1068/RB-1080 combo?

80's. With 2 more drivers you get more detail in the mids and highs. IMHO!

I agree that the 60's sound more like B&W 703's but better.

I had 60's but upgraded to 80's. No mistake!

Thyname-, I didn't listen to the rsp/rb setup...but I can tell you I listened to the 1056 and 1080 and loved everything I heard. Based on the research I've done I think it will make a fine Stereo setup...with the 1080 filling those Mi80's with some great clean power. I can't wait.
Hey, what are your thoughts on the Mi80's vs the B&W 703's? I don't have the opportunity of an A/B compare between the two. Anyone have a comparsion story?

My Rotel dealer has B&W as well, and they definitely match each-other. On dealers' showroom, this combo offers some great performances. I liked 703s a lot, and to tell you the truth, I would have purchased them first if I had the $3000 available. Again, M60s are very close, and deciding between the two, considering the cost factor was easy: Axioms!!!

In a short note, I recently called Axiom whether I could swap my 60s for 80s. First they told me they sound very similar. Second, since I had my M60s for 4 months already, I had to pay some extra plus shipping back to get M80s. I did not ask how much extra, since I still plan to keep my M60s. Anybody has any idea how much?

So it sounds like the Mi80's is the way to go. As for the compare between B&W 703's and Axiom, seems like a very close matchup, and for price you can't argue, Axiom's all the way. I've seen people say the Axiom's are better then 703's but not up to B&W 800 series sound quality. Seems like a great happy medium. Has Anyone had a good compare between the B&W 600 Series vs the Axiom's? Seems like price wise they are the fair matchup.

I auditioned the 604s and 703s with Rotel equipment at the dealer. I liked the 703s better than than 604s. I would have thought that the 604s would have matched up with the M60ti instead of the 703s, but no. The 703s are quite nice to look at however. My son has 703s with a Denon 3805. He thought he could do without a sub until he heard my EP500. I believe he is looking at an SVS 20-39 PC+.

I think the 60s are great speakers. For the difference in the price I had to upgrade to the top of line model.

I was up visiting Joe at Axiom last week and we had this same conversation. I did have a chance to listen to both side by side. I left with the 80's. I felt it had a little bit better bottom end. The sound was slightly different, not necessarily better, just slightly different.

One thing Joe mentioned to me, and you need to be aware of, is that the 80's are a true 4 ohm speaker. Meaning most H/T receivers on the market will not handle the load. The result could be your receiver shutting down and damage. You need to check with Rotel if your receiver can handle the load, I wouldn't think so.

I am using a Rotel RSP-1066 Pre-amp with an RB-976 bridged to 150 watts/channel. I really think you need to go separates if you have the 80's for stability. It won’t hurt the speaker, but might damage your receiver.

I also listened to the B&W 700 series and Paradigm Studio speakers, side by side. Both were very nice sounding speakers. I did find the B&W’s a little flat in the bass area and like the Paradigms overall sound better. However to my ear, I could not justify the cost of either speaker in comparison to the Axiom’s. In the case of the 60’s, triple the cost. OUCH!!!!!

Like I tell everyone, if you like to spend large amounts of money and brag to your friends you have B&W, go a head, I am sure you will be happy with them. If however, you want almost equal sound, or in my opinion better sound, for a whole lot less you need to get the Axioms!

Hope this helps.

I find it interesting the Rotel RB-976 can handle a 2 ohm load.

Hello Worfzara, I actually went ahead and bought the 80's, and much to my happiness, they arrived already today! I have not gotten a chance to play around much with them, just got them set up and ready to rock. Before purchasing the 80's I spoke with Brent at Axiom and he assured me that the Rotel 1056 would handle the load with no problem. I do plan to add a Rotel 1080 or 1070 2 channel amp, but it won't be right away.

You certainly could damage the speakers if the amplifier in question does not have modern protection circuitry, to avoid speaker damage. Now im sure that any reciever that would be mentioned here has some sort of safety feature to protect against clipping but that cant be said for all amplifiers. Although id say its more likely you would damage the amp than the speakers it has happened.

Aswome!!! Glad to hear the Rotel receiver will work. I just wanted you to be safe rather than sorry. I am sure you will love the M80's.

Joe's comment to me was if you are running seperates, there is no issue with the M80's. I have had the M80's now for a week and the wife left for a few days, so I have had a chance to open them up. No problems yet and all sounds great!!!

I like the 976, It's a 60 watt amp X 6 ch. but you can bridge the 6 ch. into 3 and deliver 150 watts/ch. Thats what I have done for L/C/R. I have a couple of older Rotel amps bridged at 150 watts for the rears.

These toroidal power supplies Rotel uses really help to increase amplifier stability. Not to mention I love the British sound they produce.

I understand the bridging part but Rotel says when bridging that amp it should be an 8 ohm min.That's why I said your using it in bridged mode was interesting.I also know about Rotels transformers,I have a RB 1080 with my M80s.

You are correct! It says it right on the back panel. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I will contack Rotel Tech. Support and find out the what their take is on what I have done.

Thanks

You are most welcome.Let us know what Rotel has to say about it.

Worf, when you bridge two amp sections to drive one speaker the result is that twice the amount of voltage is being supplied to the speaker, and since one form of Ohm's law is I=E/R(current equals voltage divided by resistance), when the voltage is doubled the current(at least theoretically)is also doubled. This is the same as if the voltage remained the same but the resistance or impedance of the speaker was cut in half. So, it's sometimes said that the bridged amplifier "sees" a 4 ohm load(with 8ohm speakers)or a 2 ohm load(with 4ohm speakers), which isn't really correct since the speaker stays the same, although the extra current load on the amplifier is as if the speaker impedance was lowered.

Don't know what Rotel will say, but that's a fine amp(even if it doesn't have a "British sound")and apparently the resulting current hasn't caused it to shut down.

In reply to:

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So, it's sometimes said that the bridged amplifier "sees" a 4 ohm load(with 8ohm speakers)or a 2 ohm load(with 4ohm speakers), which isn't really correct since the speaker stays the same, although the extra current load on the amplifier is as if the speaker impedance was lowered.

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That sounds like a little double talk to me.You say the speaker impedance stays the same but the extra current load on the amplifier is as if the speaker impedance was lowered.Then when using an amp in bridged mode the amp does act as if the impedance of the speaker has been lowered.When I talked to Parasound about doing this very same thing they told me that it would be like the cutting speakers load in half.

I'm not sure what the confusion is over. 2 amps in series = 2 times applied voltage. V proportional to 'I' implies 2x the current. Power proportional to 'I' squared implies 4 times the power.

The load never changes, the currents are doubled through the system.

If you just had one amp with double the normal current it would be as if the normal resistance was lowered by a factor of 2.

edit* Ha, that was pretty poorly stated!

Ok, got a response from Rotel and it isn’t pretty. I will let you read it for your self.

“Basically, the amplifier is bridged so that now it sees 2 ohm speakers instead of 4 ohm speakers. This will generate a lot of heat from the unit. In the long run the heat could eventually cause the amplifier to fail or, depending on how hard you drive the system, something to blow up. If you can keep the amp cool enough during use then you will notice that it works but your distortion rating when running in bridged mode plus 4 ohm speakers is going to be about eight times greater than normal.”

This gave me some major concern, so I decided to check if I had done any damage. I turned all the bridging off and checked each of the channels. The first one was DEAD (Oh No!!!). The other 5 seemed OK (whew!!!). Well I popped the cover off (love that power supply) and found a fried fuse. A quick trip to Radio Shak and I am up and running again. However, instead of bridging, I am bi-amping the M80’s (as per Rotel's recomendation inplace of bridging). I would say the difference is subtle (better), but it is noticeable. And because the 976 has variable gain controls on the front, I can customize the volumes of the highs and lows. I think Axiom got the crossovers in the M80's correct, because I perfer the sound with both being neutral. However it is nice to be able to tweak it a little.

Interesting to me all the huge money spent on exotic speaker cables and inter-connects when the signal still has to travel through a glass tube with a wire in it about .5 millimeters in dia; called a fuse.

Anyway Rick, thanks for the heads up. This probably saved me a lot of grief down the road.

Does anybody know how the math works on this? If I have an amplifier delivering 100 watts into 4 ohms and I bi-amp the speakers does that give me 200 watts?

That does help clear things up for me.

Oh by the way, to tell you the truth, I couldn't define British Sound from any other countries sound (except maybe Japan), I just know what I like and what I can afford. My preference for Rotel is similar to my preference for Axiom. Large bang for the buck, well built good quality products, regardless of where it is designed or manufactured.

Thanks

If you're biamping with 100 watt amplifiers, your speakers are getting 100 watts. Biamping doesn't double the power, just splits it between the woofers and tweeters/mids.

Ken is correct. Also, the only thing traveling through the fuse is electricity from the wall. It's totally outside the audio loop, so you can breathe easy.

Hmmm, but maybe you're onto something here. I can start a business that sells audiophile grade amplified fuses and make a mint!!

IsoClean Audio Grade Fuse Review. HA!

I haven't read it, but I did read about them in the thread here. The amount of crap that people buy into is amazing.

any reviewer of fuses that puts this combination of words in this particular order, "I also inserted the fuses in the opposite direction and in all instances, noted increased glare and brightness. As I said earlier, you can easily determine the proper orientation by ear." ought to be tarred and feathered. I continue to find it amazing that people actually buy into this crap...

So after reading this review, i am to believe that power is generated from the Bruce Nuc. plant then sent many many km's (miles) to my house, through my electrical panal in my garage, then trough my house using 14/2 coper wire to my wall socket. And then they would have me believe a cable from my wall socket to my component is supposed to make all the difference in the world. And now, the (directional) fuse inside the unit will is supposed to make me see the new light. Ya right!!! What is the old saying "you can fool some of the people some of the time..." you know the rest. Aren't there laws against this stuff in this country?

Nothing suprises me anymore.

Buyer be aware!

Rick, some of the previous replies probably covered this, but it's more than just semantics as to what causes the increased current load on the bridged amplifier.Speaker impedance is set by its internal wiring and can't be changed by the amplifier. If in I=E/R it actually happened that R was halved, besides E being doubled, then current(I)would theoretically be increased four times and power(IxE)eight times. Despite the use of the "sees lower impedance" type of terminology(including in the Rotel reply)this isn't what's causing the increased current. The amplifier is supplying double the voltage(which the speaker can be said to "see")into obviously an unchanged speaker impedance. An article which discusses this in somewhat more detail is found in secs. 3.5-3.5.4 here .

Interesting read,thanks.