Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Sub or No Sub when listening to 2 channel cd music

Hello All- Wanted to get feedback to see if you guys use your Subwoofer when listening to 2 channel music cd's through M60's. I have an EP500 and typically use it w/a60hz crossover for music but am starting to think that the M60's by themselves offer more accurate bass for 2 channel cd's. Wanted to get everyone's thoughts or how they do it. Thanks again all.

Sub, 60 Hz cross, speakers set to Large.

I posted same question a few months ago here, and most of the replies I got suggested I DO USE a sub for 2 channel music listening, contrary to my belief. I have not got a sub yet though, will get one once I build my HT. For now, I am more than happy with the base performance of my M60s.

I have my speakers set to "small" with 80hz crossover. Bass is pretty full and when cranked, sounds crisp. Sadly, cranked is on the endangered list as of late.

When I had 60s, I listened without the sub. I do the same with my 80s now.

I listen to 2ch with the sub crossed at 60hz. But to be honest, the sub dosen't add much to music inless it's a real bass intensive group of tunes.

I have only had my 60's for about 2 weeks. I have listened both with and without the sub. Mostly without. I think the 60's sound just fine without it, but on the other hand if I had a sub hooked into the system I would probably leave it on. It can't hurt it can only help. When I had the 60's in the HT system I had it set to large and crossed over at 40.
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60's + sub for me. I have an integrated amp, so I use the sub's low pass crossover of 50Hz, thus the 60's are running full range and the sub pops in when it's called upon. If I had something like the Outlaw ICBM I'd probably cross at 60Hz.

I use a sub with my M80s,it's a stereo setup.I do have the Outlaw ICMB and have the crossover at 60hz.

I read some infor on this Outlaw ICMB that I just learnt for the first time from you guys, and sounds very usefull for a multi-channel music application. Another thing to consider when I start building my HT!!

Its also a good piece to have in a 2.1 system.I have it in between the preamp and amp.

It seems it is for multi channel sacd dvd-a. The following is copied from Outlaw website:

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Most of today's DVD-Audio players, and some of today's multi-channel SACD players, do not have bass management when you're playing DVD-Audio or SACD discs. (The players themselves may contain bass management menus, but this built in circuitry is probably effective only when you're listening to Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks.)

As a result, when you're listening to DVD-Audio or SACD discs, all of the speakers get a full-range signal, (with deep bass being sent to all speakers), and the separate ".1" bass track goes only to the subwoofer. Thus, the main speakers in the system may get more bass than they can handle. And in systems without a subwoofer, most of the bass will be thrown away, because it cannot be routed to the other speakers.

The ICBM can fix these problems entirely. Connect it between your DVD-Audio or SACD player and your receiver or preamp/processor, and the ICBM will put all the bass in the right place. If you have small satellite speakers and a subwoofer, it will keep the bass out of the small speakers and send it all to the subwoofer. If you have large tower speakers and no subwoofer, the ICBM will route the ".1" bass from the subwoofer track over to the tower speakers.

Even if your DVD-Audio or SACD player does have bass management, it will be much less versatile than the ICBM's circuitry, and thus won't let you fine-tune your system, as the ICBM will.

The ICBM works not only with 5.1-channel systems, but also with 6.1-channel systems like Lucasfilm THX Surround EX and DTS ES-Matrix and ES-Discrete. We have included an extra channel of bass management to accommodate these systems. That extra channel also lets the ICBM work with the 6.0 channel systems now being championed by Chesky Records. These systems repurpose two of the channels in DVD-Audio or multi-channel SACD, using the center channel as a left front/side "height" channel, and the LFE channel as a right front/side "height" channel.

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How much this thing cost?

I read a little more and found your point Rick (sorry, I should have done my home work prior to my previous post):

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In addition to performing this mandatory function for DVD-Audio or SACD, the ICBM may also substitute for a pre-amp's own bass management circuitry.

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However, I would probably think that a great piece of pre/pro like Rotel RC-1070 should have great bass management features. I believe that you have the same preamp. Did you notice any improvement with your 2.1 setup after purchasing the ICBM?

It seems this one retails for $249 plus shipping. Is that right?

Generally no sub with my M60s. I don't know exactly why (could still be setup), but my ears don't seem to like having crossovers in the bass region.

When I had a PSB 6i sub I felt that most pop CDs ended up with too much bass even though I had matched levels using pink noise from the Avia CD. When I replaced the PSB with an SVS 20-39PC+ the "too much bass" problem pretty much went away, although the deep bass was better and I had again matched levels with the Avia tracks. I still slightly preferred the sound without the sub though.

I finally found one album which definitely sounds better with the sub than without -- Bif Naked's latest, "Superbeautifulmonster" seems "right" with the sub on but a bit thin without it. Don't know why yet.

i too use m60's without my sub during music, as i feel there is often to much bass with the sub on, but then again i havent gotten an spl meter...damn source buying out radioshack to blame

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I would probably think that a great piece of pre/pro like Rotel RC-1070 should have great bass management features

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I do have the RC 1070 and it has no bass management at all.Although the M80s do have good bass on their own they are no match for the Hsu STF 3.With the ICBM in place you can tell the amp does not have to work as hard.Without it the RB 1080 gets quite warm but with it the amp barely gets warm to the touch.It also seems that with the sub doing all the grunt work that the mids and highs on the M80s are more focused and crystal clear.This what I have noticed.

Thyname,

Yep, $249 is the retail price. However, when available, you can get a B-Stock ICBM for $199 plus shipping. That's the route I went. Have had no problems at all.

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With the ICBM in place you can tell the amp does not have to work as hard.Without it the RB 1080 gets quite warm but with it the amp barely gets warm to the touch.

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My RB-1080 gets very hot running the M60s though. I will definitely consider adding an ICBM when purchasing my HT. Thanks a lot Rick and Jack for introducing me to this important piece of audio equipment! I don't think it will make any difference now that I don't have a sub, will it?

>>I don't think it will make any difference now that I don't have a sub, will it?

Nope, you actually have to strip out the low notes so they don't have to through your main amp. Otherwise it's like delegating work before you hire anyone -- it feels good but doesn't actually accomplish anything

yep.....I use one. Wouldn't break my heart if it wasn't there, but it does add some presence. it's set at 60. maybe it's just that my rack has plenty of room, but the amp doesn't get hot at all.

A good sub calibrated well will not give someone the desire to turn it off for music, IMO, since you won't notice it's there - it'll sound like a natural extension of the main speakers. Like my STF-2.

I keep it on for music.. using the subs crossover set to 90 hz. All the graphs for the M22ti indicate steep rolloff from 90 hz.

In principle I agree 100%. In practice, I think some CDs are mixed with an artificially boosted bass to compensate for the poor bass response of most systems. If you combine the artificially boosted bass on the recording with a faithful, flat, accurate representation you end up with a heck of a lot of bass.

Just my theory, though

I listen to all music with the subwoofer on, but then the M22 needs some support for bass. I’m still deciding between my crossover choices of 80 Hz and 100 Hz.

Bridgman, have you tried to measure your in room bass response curve on the subwoofer? The reason I ask is my system just sounded wrong when I first installed my dual subwoofers and calibrated them using both the pink noise generator on the Denon 3805 and the Avia disk. It wasn’t until after I used one of these disks with individual frequency band pink noise and my SPL meter that I found my subwoofers had a 20 db room boost between 30-40 Hz. This caused my overall pink noise setting on the subwoofer to set the higher frequency bass way too low. I was able to adjust my problem using a parametric EQ built into the subwoofer, but moving the subwoofers could have been another option. The change made a very big improvement in sound. The experience has sold me on spending some time measuring and correcting in room bass frequency response.

I suspect this is something I need to do. With the PSB sub there was a blatant mid-bass boost which was much reduced with the SVS in the same location. It might be a result of the SVS ports being a few feet off the ground and not exciting the room modes as much.

When the mid-bass was reduced so much I stopped thinking about placement problems but maybe that was premature.

Denon 2805 80hz all speakers set to small. This 60's still rock fine with these settings. I've tried 60hz, mains to large, yada yada yada. 80hz and small is a great all around setting for music and movies.

60's 150 350 4-Qs8's
denon 2805
Sanyo Z2 projector
Panasonic S97S HDMI DVD

Rick and other ICBM users..

Ok this thing has got my attention..

Here is my setup: Onkyo 601 receiver (no preouts or ins) able to set overall crossover point and not individual speakers..

Sony 400 disc DVD changer (SACD and DVD-A capable)

Sony is connected to Onkyo with single digital cable as well as 6 channel inputs for SACD use

M60's, VP 150 and 3 QS8's

I also use a BFD unit on dual SVS 20-39 PC+ subs

The Sony only has the usual settings in it's setup for setting distance, speaker size (small, large) and levels.

So if I understand this correctly with the setup I have now the ICBM will go in between my Sony and Onkyo and will allow me to adjust crossover points for my Axioms when using my Sony only and later on should I ever upgrade to a receiver that has pre outs and ins I can move the ICBM to the ins/outs of the receiver and that will allow the crossover settings to be in place with ALL sources?

When I added my BFD unit it was the best $100 investment to tame my peaks and valleys and it sounds like the ICBM unit might be a nice finishing touch to give my Axioms more controlled range than what they have now..

Am I correct in all of my readings about the ICBM unit?

Thanks for the info about this unit..
Rick

P.S. I assume this unit is only sold thru the Outlaw website? I didn't see any other places that lists it for sale other than the manufacturer.

One other question I had was:

With the ICBM unit between the DVD player and receiver everyone speaks of using it mostly when playing an SACD or DVD-A. Wouldn't it also benefit when watching a regular movie (DTS or DD) through the 6 channel analog connections instead of the single digital link since this would send the same crossover signals to all your speakers as well. Wouldn't this be preferred because of this reason?

Thanks again for any input..
Rick

Rick, I took a look at the back of your 601:



And though they are not labeled as such, you DO have multichannel (pre) inputs, but they are only available for your DVD player. You probably already have your Sony plugged into them. And yes, the ICBM would go between your Sony and your Onkyo.

However, should you upgrade to a receiver with pre ins labeled as such, you still could only use the ICBM with one source. Receivers that have pre ins allow you to select which source uses them. Your 601 only allows the DVD to use them.

The ICBM has only one set of inputs and outputs. If you wanted to use the ICBM as a crossover for ALL sources, you would need to upgrade to separates, and install the ICBM between the preamp and the amp.

As for using the multichannel inputs for all movies, it would depend on whether the Onkyo or the Sony had superior DACs (digital to analog converters). If, in the receiver, you select the digital input coming from the Sony (see page 42 of your manual), then the Onkyo does the converting, and you are using the receiver's crossover. If you select the multichannel inputs in the Onkyo, then the Sony is doing the converting, and you'd be using the ICBM as your crossover. You would have to try both to see if you preferred one or the other.

Hope I haven't added to the confusion. I know I'M confused, and I wrote it.