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Hitting the limits ?
#107280 08/11/05 03:23 AM
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axiomite
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axiomite
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Speaking of upgraditis (another thread), I either just hit the limits of my current system or one of my speakers is a bit off. Playing Lee Aaron's "Beautiful Things", first track -- Museum -- on the M60s, surround off, no sub. Turned the volume up more than normal and started to get a hard edge on the vocals at the loudest parts. The song is a real torture test for speakers -- string bass playing low and loud, high brass, female vocals and electric guitar washes all lurching along on slightly different time signatures, so they drift in and out of sync. It gets kinda loud when they all sync up.

Tried putting the speakers into "small" with a 100 Hz cutoff to take away most of the amp load but the sound still seemed to be there. It was a bit hard to tell because I backed off the instant I heard anything bad -- didn't feel destructive testing was appropriate

Sounds like a midrange problem on one channel only but the mix is different between the channels. Next step is to swap the speakers. Average SPL was about 95dB C weighted slow, so probably quite a bit higher on the peaks.

It certainly sounds more like a speaker problem than clipping -- seemed to coincide with the loudest midrange signals not the bass. I have never even felt like I was approaching the limits before but then again this was (a) a particularly demanding track and (b) louder than normal.

So... I realize this is almost irrelevant but I'll ask anyways -- M60 owners, have any of you felt you have hit the limits in terms of how loudly the speakers would play comfortably ? If so, what SPL, what kind of music etc.. ?

Thanks,
John


M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Re: Hitting the limits ?
#107281 08/11/05 12:29 PM
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John
I felt like I hit the limit with my 60's about a week ago. as in your situation it seemed to have nothing to do with bass. It sounded like the voices got very harsh and there was a mid frequency "clacking" sound. I don't know any better way to explain it. I lowered the volume immediately. Keep in mind this was louder than I would usually listen.

This is in "stereo only" no sub or speaker settings. My amp has a rotary dial it was set to about 1:00 or between 1:00 and 2:00. When I back off to straight up 12:00 it is loud and clean. It is an older HK 150watt rms per. The room size is 15 x 20, 2story, open to other areas on 2 sides. I can't remember what music I was playing.(unfortunately) I have not been able to repeat it since although I have not really tried that hard. I will try more testing this weekend. The weird thing in my situation was I am sure I had the amp at this volume when the speakers were in a smaller room and this did not happen at all. I would like to get to the bottom of this before my 30 days are up.
oz


"Life is what happens while your busy making other plans" John Lennon
Re: Hitting the limits ?
#107282 08/11/05 02:51 PM
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I have to admit that I was really surprised with with running the 60's on a new amp (NAD372). In the first or second week, I was curious about really loud. With my old amp and speakers, anything past 1:00 would start clipping. With the new combo, I have actually gone to 6:00. Full volume with no clipping. I was amazed! Talk about loud AND clean.
If I had one comment on the 60's sound, it would be that they don't seem that loud. Maybe because they are cleaner? My old speakers seemed much louder at 6:00. Maybe because I was hearing distortion??
Shane D

Re: Hitting the limits ?
#107283 08/11/05 05:20 PM
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John;

Reading your explanation of the hard edged sound thru your M60s made me think of the original John Potis review of the m22.

Same thing?

Re: Hitting the limits ?
#107284 08/11/05 07:07 PM
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axiomite
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It's possible. The transition from "nice" to "nasty" was pretty sharp, so I'm actually suspecting I might have a bad driver. I never ran into this when playing my M2s loudly -- you could tell that they weren't happy because the dynamics would start to get compressed, so you knew to back off a bit, but in this case the speakers sounded fine... fine... fine... EWWWW... fine....


M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Re: Hitting the limits ?
#107285 08/12/05 02:00 AM
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John, what are you driving them with?

When I first got my 80's, I was driving them with a 2ch integrated Luxman amp from the early 80's. It was rated at 70w/ch@8ohms. I now have a Yamaha 5660 6.1receiver rated at 85w/ch@8ohms.

With the Lux, I could turn it up to stupid levels cleanly, until it would just shut down. (It didn't like the 4 ohm load) No hint of strain, and it seemed effortless.

With the Yamaha I haven't had it shut down, but as the volume goes up things start to fall apart. Vocals sound strained & harsh. The high's become shrill. Bass seems sloppy. Remember, this is at STUPID levels, by myself.

I would love to hear the 80's with some real power behind them. Peter described how awesome Tharkuns 80's sounded with those parasound amps. Drool.....


Shawn

Epic 80/600 + M3's + M3 Algonquins + M2 Computer + EP125
I think I'm developing an addiction.
Re: Hitting the limits ?
#107286 08/12/05 02:06 AM
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axiomite
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axiomite
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Driving them with an H/K 630. It's possible I'm running out of power but I have never heard anything that sounds like clipping yet.

Guess I should haul my butt down the stairs and swap left/right channels and see what happens...


M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Re: Hitting the limits ?
#107287 08/12/05 02:14 AM
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connoisseur
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Wow, the HK630 surprised me. From everything I've read, that thing should have tons of headroom, and handily outperform that 20yr old Luxman of mine- especially with M60's. From what you described, I really thought it was a power issue.



Shawn

Epic 80/600 + M3's + M3 Algonquins + M2 Computer + EP125
I think I'm developing an addiction.
Re: Hitting the limits ?
#107288 08/12/05 05:18 AM
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Maybe give Axiom a call? I'm surprised on either end. I've heard the 60s pumped pretty loud (small room, granted), and I'm pretty sure the 630 should be able to put out.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: Hitting the limits ?
#107289 08/12/05 12:10 PM
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An interesting question apparently is being posed on this thread!!!

How do the amplifier manufacturers REALLY set up their amps? When you turn it up to the maximum, does it clip or just limit?

Interesting!!!!


The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV
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