Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions 720p vs. 1080p

Oops. Forgot to mention the set is 1080i native.

Thanks for that information. I've been trying out different scenarios and don't really see difference when sending either 720p or 1080i. I have not tried sending anything lower.

Thanks again!

In response to:

Poster: donjuanmiguel
Subject: Re: 720p vs. 1080p

Hey, you guys aren't going to the gathering together, are you? Just kidding.
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I wish! That guy just slings mud. He must be a politician who thinks it is an election year. We know how much truth they tell.

In case people haven't figured it out, I really like my Z3. I don't think I paid too much for anything. It shows in his posts that he can't have a "friendly" debate. That shows signs of desperation, like a scared animal that has been cornered, resorting to whatever means it can to get away.

See, now he has me heading that direction. I'm done. I am sure that Smokey will reply with something, and that is fine. I am going to stop responding to him. Too bad there wasn't an "ignore" filter on these forums. That'd be nice. He could filter me and I could filter him, and we could both go on with our happy lives... Or at least, I can go on with mine. I wouldn't want to speak for him. He'll just come back with a personal attack.

Argh! He's still pulling me in.

I'm done. Sorry for my piece of this everyone.

So... ARE you guys coming to the picnic ?

Nope. Wish I could, but I would have to drive 15 hours each way, and it would be cost prohibitive to do so. Should be quite the party! Maybe next year. I'd carpool with Sirquack, but despite what others have insultingly said about it, I have never met the guy even though he lives on the other side of town.

sorry people for this going on longer then it had too. were just like two bulls bunting heads. now i've got a head ache and i'm sure nick does too. a good debate though can only help give more sense for people on what to buy. and a little more knowledge also.

Smokey - first off, DVDs are encoded in 480i, not 480p. The DVD player or the TV (depending on the type of set you have, and whether it can even display a 480p signal) deinterlaces the interlaced frames of the 480i encoded DVD to create 480 progressive lines. There is no loss in quality when doing this, because the de-interlacing, at its most basic level, just holds the first frame (odd lines) while the second frame (even lines) is displayed. This de-interlacing process helps to smooth out screen flicker and scan line problems. So, no matter what, the DVD signal from the DVD to the progressive scan monitor/display device is ALWAYS going to be altered, unless an interlaced signal is displayed.

Next, I agree with you, in principle, regarding whether it you will get a "sharper" or "better" picture displaying a DVD on a monitor with a resolution of 480 pixels or using one with 720 pixels. Whenever you can get 1:1 pixel mapping, and you remove a level of processing, your image SHOULD remain closer to the source. This is because, when upscaling, or scaling in any sort, for that matter, complex algorithms are applied to the image in very quick fashion and in a constantly changing fashion. The algorithms often make mistakes, incorporating errors into the picture. On the other hand, some scalers are very good at what they do. They analyze pixels over time, looking at the surrounding pixels, interpretting these changes as movement. From this, it can predict or interpolate which pixels should go in the spaces between encoded information. This often results in what you have called "softness" but which others may refer to as "smoothness" with less pixelation, making it harder to see individual pixels, resulting in a more film-like picture. I guess it's a matter of choosing your poison - do you want a large image that is 1:1 pixel-mapped, but which might look pixelated or blocky when blown up to 100 inches, or do you want a slightly smoother picture that eliminates some of the pixelation when blown up. Most choose the latter, since the eye doesn't necessarily see this "softness" as decreased resolution.

That said, I think the original poster was getting at whether there is a real difference between 720p and 1080p, from normal viewing distances. Applying your logic, it would appear that the television with a higher resolution would make his DVD images softer. I doubt you will find that quote on the projector boards said by anyone reputable. GIVEN SOME UPSCALING, which is assumed in the original post, and also assuming a decent scaler, I view the question as is 1080p better than 720p? And if so, is it that much better to justify the difference in price. My answer is - I don't know - I haven't viewed a 1080p set. But, my guess is that, given some upscaling is going to take place, I choose the set with the ABILITY to resolve more detail. Is it worth the price difference - I have heard that from normal viewing distances or screen sizes less than 50 inches or so, the answer is "No". We will all find out soon enough.

In any event - take what I have to say with a grain of salt, as I have little experience with large screen HD projectors (my brother in law has a large screen, 480p projector - that I don't think looks that great when projected at 85 inches - I woudl bet dollars to donuts that the picture would improve if his projector had a higher resolution, and could "create" in between pixels, thus reducing the blocky look of his image), but ease the personal attacks a little and try to have a more constructive conversation. You claim that these boards are for educating people, not misguiding them. Yet you sling sh*t like you think Ape culture is on the verge of extinction. Heed your own advice, and use the boards for constructive discussion, not ad hominem attacks on other posters.

Hi all,

Thanks to JohnK and Capn_Pickard for pointing out some essential truths, including the fact that DVDs hold interlaced signals (if they were encoded as progressive images, consumers with older TV sets wouldn't be able to view them). I'm late posting to this thread because other Axiom tasks kept me away, though I've followed the thread.

One fact that everyone should understand is that if you have an HD CRT set, its "native resolution" is 1080i -- it will scale any incoming signals to an interlaced 1080i presentation.

All other HD fixed-pixel arrays (DLP, LCD, plasma) have a native resolution of 720p. This means that although broadcasters prefer to transmit a 1080i signal rather than 720p, because less bandwidth is required (the video information is transmitted in alternating fields every 1/60th second, whereas a 720p signal presents all the video information 30 times per second). So if you ask which looks better, 720p or 1080i, it's meaningless, because if you are using a DLP or LCD front or rear-projector, it will automatically scale the incoming 1080i signal to 720p in order to display it. Such a comparison would only be possible if you had an HD CRT direct-view set (or projector) displaying the native 1080i signal next to a DLP/LCD device displaying the 1080i signal scaled to 720p, which it must do to display it.

A small correction to Capn_Picard's post: the deinterlacer in a DVD player may indeed add aberrations and video artifacts if it's a cheap or poorly designed deinterlacer. It's fairly costly to put in a high-quality deinterlacer so you generally won't find it in cheap DVD players. Consequently, the deinterlacer in your HD set or HD projector may be superior to the one in the DVD player, in which case you'd get a better quality picture with fewer artifacts by setting the DVD player to interlaced output and using the HD set's deinterlacer and scaler to do the processing.

This also applies to some inexpensive DVD players that have built-in scalers with DVI or HDMI outputs. The chip set is mediocre, so often the "upconverted" 720p signal done by the DVD player and sent through its DVI or HDMI output is not an improvement over using the analog component video outputs. In some cases, it may actually be inferior.

Added to these factors are certain personal judgments and biases brought by the viewer as to what "looks better." Joe Kane, the guru of Video Essentials, likes everything to have a kind of "filmic" look, which to my eye appears slightly soft, smooth, a bit dark, and lacking contrast. With video material, I don't want a "filmic" look. It's video we're watching (admittedly, with lots of DVD movies, it's film transferred to video) and I prefer a slightly punchier, contrastier, sharper image. I certainly don't want a soft "filmic" presentation for live HDTV sports and outdoor events. So keep your own biases in perspective when engaging in discussions of video image quality.

Finally, another question posed is whether 1080p looks better than 720p (because a new generation of Texas Instruments DLP chips will display signals as 1080p). Viewed side by side, which I've done, there is a slight improvement. Sometimes it's really hard to discern. At the moment, no broadcasters are transmitting 1080p, and I doubt it will happen for a long time because of the huge bandwidth requirements. The comparison I viewed was on two 61-inch HD DLP rear-projection sets, side by side. With larger screen images and front projection, the differences would likely be more apparent, but I haven't seen a demo like that yet.

Regards,

Quite a thread hijack/flame war we had going on here...

And yes I realize you want to compare 720p to 1080p but here are my thoughts on 1080I vs 720P...

Anyways, like StPatGuy I also have the Sony XBR960 which has support for most resolutions except for 1080p of course. I have viewed over the air HD programs in both 720P and 1080i and MY PERSONAL PREFERNCE is 1080i. It simply looks cleaner and more detailed in my opinion. I'm not trying to say that 720p doesn't look good because it does, but that 1080i looks a little better. For instance, 720p is WOW but 1080i is OMG that's not a tv, you're looking at the real thing.

Of course for sporting events (with lots of motion) 720P is preferred so you don't get pixelized (blocky) images, but most of the stuff I watch doesn't have fast motion objects. In the end, simly look at the lines, 720 vs 1080...sure the 720 lines are refreshed faster than the 1080 but it all depends on the source material. For sports, 720 and for everything else 1080i.

I also heard that ESPN would be the first to start broadcasting in 1080p since that would benefit them the most. It remains to be seen when and if they come out with it.

If you have patience and some extra money go for the 1080P. After all the amount of pixels is significantly increases, more than doubles, with 1080P (~2.07Mpixels vs 720 which has 920Kpixels). Again, 720 looks good and who knows when 1080P content will be out but if you have patience go with the higher res.

Thanks, Alan, for jumping in. We've gotten off topic from the first post. I think that it has been noted that the difference between 720p and 1080p is slight, and might not justify the difference in price, especially at normal viewing distances. But, if we're talking minute differences - this may be enough to influence your decision. It's certainly not a bad feeling to be a little future-proofed, however minimally.

Let me also note that I agree that any type of conversion (whether it be de-interlacing or scaling) can introduce errors in the end product.

Filmic vs. Video-like presentation preferences aside, for a moment - can you weigh in on Smokey's point regarding whether a DVD encoded image (480i or 480p for argument's sake) will look better (again, the above preferences aside) than the same signal displayed on a higher resolution monitor? For argument's sake, assume that there are no scaling or de-interlacing errors.

Do you think that the same image will look "softer" or equally as sharp or sharper on a 1080i or 720p set vs. a 480p set?

Working from some of your other comments, though, let me suggest the following... If "upconverting" a 480p signal to a 720p is analogous to "upconverting" a 720p or 1080i signal to 1080p, and you claim that the 1080p picture looks slightly better, then it would also be true (by analogy) that the upconverted image to 720p or 1080i from 480i/p would look similarly and slightly better.
Thus, it would seem that the "theoretical" softness which internal scalers introduce is just that - theory - and that in real life, we actually perceive that extra resolution (even if it is made up of "fake" pixels) as providing more detail, and thus, a sharper image.

i don't want to argue anymore for it is folly here to do so. T.v. was what the post was concerning. what me an nick were debating over were projectors. like me and nick talked last night and with some projectors if the scaling of the projector is good really good you would not see a difference in a picture scaled up. And some like nick and sirquack might see an improvement. but for most that do not have a z3 scaling a dvd well create the same pic if not a less colorful picture. i guess the main thing is go demo them for yourself and find what you like best.

this well be my last post here. for all of you jumping in the air right now i'm happy also. this forum and some of the people in it have left a bad smell. For this is not highschool and no one should have to suck up to people who have senoirity here. after recieving pms from freinds of sirquack and nickbouls. I feel like this is more of a click then a forum. there have been other posts by others whom have felt the same about the people here. i'm happy with my axiom setup i bought. three qs8s and the m60's and the vp150. I'm very delighted with them. As for the forum i did make some comments that were to say the least not classy. i am sorry to all i offended. but i was not the only one without class in some posts. but as most of the people that have contacted me threw pms have singled me out which is fine. debating with some people does get me flustered and i do act rash to some comments.
I'm just an average guy who works everyday like most of you. I have a passion for home audio and theater.

My posts on projectors were to more so help to find out what a guy really needs for a projector. so mabey in the end it would help a guy save some hard earned cash. But i did not want it to end up like it did but it has. so i have said my two bits. For trolls like myself like some would say. there are other places to mingle. But it seems here all the trolls stick together.

Last shout out goes to axiom. Great speakers for a decent price. couldn't be happier with them. Best customer service i've seen. great website and forums to help axiom owners out for the most part. It would be a lot nicer to see a little more canadians here. Much easy to have conversations with fellow canucks.
For all the guys who helped me out thanks. Every question i asked was answered with good opinions. Just to any newcomers speak your mind. Don't get caught up with this click crap that has gotten out of hand at this forum. Someone wants to be sarcastic give it right back. Highschool was fun but that was 10 years ago. i don't want to go to forum to relive it.