Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Quick TurnTable/78 RPM question...

Quick question re: turntables… hoping someone has a quick answer!

I've gotten two calls in the last couple of days from clients looking to transfer records to CD…. But I don't have a TT. One of them was going to bring in their own TT, but the call I just got was from someone who has some 78s to convert. Both the 78s and the LPs are irreplaceable and not available anywhere else.

So… I'm considering picking up a TT. If I don't go overboard, the jobs will pay for it anyway.

If I were just looking at 45s and 33 1/3 LPs, there wouldn't be any problem. I'd probably pick up a Technics 1200. But that 78 RPM speed is limiting my choices.

Here's what I don't know: Aren't there other differences between 78's and LP/45's beyond speed? The last TT I bought was 25 years ago, so my memory might be a bit off. But it seems to me that cartridges/styli for 45's and LPs didn't do well with 78's???? Maybe a difference in track width or pitch or something?

The woman that needs the 78's transferred needs to have it in the next week or so…. Evidently it's her parents' wedding ceremony and their 50th is next week. She just realized that it would be great to transfer for them.

I wouldn't sweat a TT purchase if it weren't for the "78" question. Anyone have a quick answer as to whether ANY TT that offered a "78 speed" would do fine in actually playing one back?

TIA-

Wow... wonder if it would be easier to capture at 33 or 45 and resample (frequency-shift) the data in the PC before burning a CD ? I'm not up on current audio tools but resampling has to be one of the easiest operations to perform digitally...

Mark - why not just digitize the audio at 33 1/3 and then resample in your audio editor of choice?

Some really bad vinyl I used to take in to an engineer buddy with an infinitely variable turntable, throw on a known length cut (like a :30 radio leader)... figure out how long it took to play (if it was, say, 90 seconds, you'd know you were playing a 33 at 11.1rpm) and then resample at 1/3.

That way pops, clicks and all manner of ugliness are minimized - a click lasts a certain length of time and it at a certain frequency no matter how fast it's played... if you play the disc slower, by the time it's resampled - it's shorter and higher in pitch, making it less noticeable.

Just my two cents.

Remember to use the right stylus for the composition of the records, too, especially if they're shellac or aluminum blanks.

Bren R.

Thanks to both of you.... yes, I did wonder about going the resampling route as I have all the tools needed here. But as Bren wrote:

In reply to:

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Remember to use the right stylus for the composition of the records, too, especially if they're shellac or aluminum blanks.

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It sounds as though I still might need a "capable" cartidge/stylus for the 78 anyway?

Useless, for this application, trivia use only!

But I used to have good luck in the late 40s/early 50s, using finishing nails and tree thorns to keep my old 78s playing.

The records of the day seemed pretty forgiving of such abuse, but I may have been causing them serious irrepairable damage

Looks like the stylus shape is completely different for 78s, so a dedicated cartridge will be needed.

Also the standard EQ seems to be different (what's it called today ? RIAA equalization ?). Anyways, seems to be more bass, less treble on 78s.

I've found an A/T turntable with cartridge included that lists as 78RPM compatible. I assume that means that in addition to obviously having the correct speed, there aren't any issues with the stylus being of a "wrong" type to use on 78's....(?)

Hi Mark,

You've got good advice and indeed the stylus for 78s is quite a bit larger. If you used the much smaller styus for 33 1/3 or 45 rpm "microgrooves" (as they were first called) for 78s, it would ride down in the bottom of the groove, picking up all kinds of groove noise and garbage. I'm away from my archives at the moment, so I can't specify the tip diameter for a proper 78 stylus, but check on Shure's web site. They continued to supply specialty styli for years. So does Stanton, which has a big broadcast market (or did in the past). I think Stanton might even have a direct-drive turntable with a 78-speed option but I could be wrong.

Regards,

Mark,

The Stanton does have the 78 speed and other features. Here's the address at J&R: http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4036246

Alan

http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4036246

...brought to you by the link brigade...

Thanks Alan (and everyone else)!

I've got a couple of days to research, so with your good info I should be able to come to a decision about how to go about this...

This should do the trick. I have a Grado Sonata on my turntable and it is magical. The mid-range detail is second to none.

http://www.amusicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=AGRA78C

clicky clicky

beat 'ya Peter!

Hi Mark,

It looks like you and Bren know a lot more than I do about audio editors for the PC. I could use some recommendations. I hate the one I’m using from Roxio 6.5. It’s limited and worse it crashes with regularity.

I’ve been researching the same 78 rpm record topic lately. My wife has a large pile of 78’s she wants to play and have recorded to CD. Knowing nothing about record players when I started, I found this 78rpm website helpful in explaining the issues with playing 78’s. They also sell some record players by Esoeric Sound specifically designed for playing the old records. The Needle Doctor had all kinds of stuff too including a LARGE listing of all the players that handle 78 rpm and all kinds of 78 record needles.

www.78rpm.com
www.esotericsound.com
www.needledoctor.com

The 4 big issues for 78 records seem to be:
1) 78 rpm means anything from 60-90 rpm.
2) Special needles are required.
3) Standard RIAA equalization curves are not used you need some kind of equalizer and ideally information to set the equalization properly.
4) Vertical movement only Edison and Pathe records need some additional adjustment which I haven’t fully figured out yet. Perhaps it just connects the playing channel to both stereo outputs.

I’ve read reviews on the Audio Technics turntable. The biggest complaint was the RCA cables which are hard wired to the turntable. I can’t remember at the moment what the needle was, but I recall the speed adjustment range was fairly small.

I’d appreciate knowing what you find out. I haven’t made any decisions yet on the hardware I need to buy.


P.S. The interesting stuff on 78rpm isn't so easy to find so here is the link to the most useful information page.
http://www.78rpm.com/rescat/tech_info.htm

If you use Needle Doctor be prepared to wait several weeks for your cartridge. I've had 3 bad experiences (3 strikes and you're out) with them. I posted at Vinyl Asylum to ask if anyone else had had similar problems. A good 75% of the people who responded said they had the same issues. Just thought you should know.

Here's some more thoughts regarding transferring 78's and LP's to CDs.
In addition to the turntable, you'll need a phono pre-amp to create a line level output to feed to the computer. If your computer has built in audio, you can use it for casual use, but your results won't be great. If you want really good quality, then you need to invest in a dedicated sound card. Soundblaster cards are best known and OK, but you can get better cards for the same money. Expect to pay from ~$100 US for a decent card to over $1,000 for a pro model.

Also, one of the big advantages of conversion is to digitally restore the recording. I use software from Diamond Cut Productions (www.diamondcut.com). It's amazing how much you can clean up old recordings.

If you consider the Stanton Turntable, be aware that two different arms available. The straight arm was designed for DJ work, while the S-shaped arm is better suited for transferring to digital (it has less tracking error).

Keep in mind that 78's weren't recorded using the hi-fi RIAA equalization curve. Almost all phono pre-amps have RIAA eq built in. For 78's, you have to use a "reverse" RIAA curve to take out the eq, then apply the correct rollover for the decade and label. I use a special sound card with a phono pre-amp that is flat, it doesn't add any EQ. I add it using the restoration software.

Check out this site also: http://www.tracertek.com

Doug