Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Speaker face-off this weekend

They certainly did sound like they hated that maple color. I also asked if they listened blind, and they did not. Hmmm...

There may be a round 2 with the Aperions, Ascends and M22. If so, I believe I'll be able to attend. I've suggested that this time a few changes are made.

1) listen blindly

2) listen both sub-free and with a sub. If a sub is added it'll be a Hsu VTF-3, a GREAT sub! I would agree that the M22's are bit bright in the high end. But I believe it is partly due to the fact that their high end and mids are so strong, and they are quite weak in the lower end. When I added my VTF-2 sub to the M22's that brightness seemed much more subdued - because it was now part of a much fuller sound.

3) add another type of music. They only listened to one piece of classical, and Nora Jones. Granted those are nice choices, but something a bit more difficult is in order. I suggested Propellerheads. It's a super clean, tight bit of electronica which encorporates orchestral music as well. It'll really work the speakers over. I use it as a test cd quite often. Speakers tend to start sounding "muddy" when pushed to play it. The M22's handled it with ease. (That's partly why I own them!)

I think these are fair suggestions, and are in now why designed to "help" the M22 in the process. Any comments? If this round two does happen, I want it to be as thorough, and fair as possible.

Blind testing was not used...major problem number one (good question spiffnme).

The speaker setup area put several ppl off axis by the sounds of it and there was no mention as to how long each speaker set was listened to before switching.

The words 'speaker break-in' continue to fly around.

This Norah Jones cd kept popping up as the one which ppl covered their ears for when using Axioms (source material and components?) yet not during some classical music with high note violin pieces.

The knuckle test for build quality is downright silly.

One post mentions "flatter speakers tend to shine at higher volumes, where their flatness becomes a huge bonus... " yet excludes Axiom from this category. I don't think they have seen the frequency response graphs for the M22s which are pretty flat at the upper end and certainly do not roll off as sharp as the Ascends especially on the off axis.

The SSBL person seems to have been a bit more objective although still mentions the {sigh} speaker break in "phenomena" and cable-component mismatching.
Do these ppl ever think of the recordings themselves?

I was a bit shocked at the overly negative impression of the Axiom vinyl finishes as well. You can't really compare it to real wood veneers but damn, for vinyl the Axiom material is pretty darn good.
At least these reviewer are aware of Axiom's new speaker finishes.

At least the reviewers tried to stress that the opinions expressed were only their opinions but i am still going to say that their choice of words was rather unflattering ( 'metallic and tinny' instead of 'bright' or ' high clarity') compared to how they referred to faults in other speakers. I never saw anyone call the Rockets lifeless, muffled and dull although the closest description was "they were holding back" which certainly is not as harsh compared to 'metallic and tinny'.
I had some old cheap computer speakers that were thin little things. Now THEY sounded metallic and tinny.

I would love to see some more home auditions like this done but with a bit better control. The idea is great and certainly a socially fun one.

I read your post in AVS spiffnme.
Well done.

My suggestions for improvements:
1) same as yours, listen blind, use score sheets with numbers but not names (only one person should know how they match up and they would not be listening or at least not include their ideas in the pool)
2) listen w/o the sub, after all, they are head to head speaker on speaker and the sub adds an additional element
3)YES, add more music types BUT allow each listener to take as much time as they want with their OWN music

This process would take more time than a single evening depending on how many ppl show up but its the only way to get individual results of ppl sitting in the same spot, not knowing what speakers are on at any given time but using material they are familiar with.

Finally, once the listening is done, gather the score sheets together and finally add the numbers to the names to find out which brand may have scored highest.
You can always rank for build quality and looks afterwards.

I will give alot more credit and respect for the scores of such a test. Apparently Amie even sent along some speaker grille material for them to use in blind testing, and yet they did not bother.

I posted this message on the AVS site in regards to adding the sub.

"I think a sub SHOULD be used in a blind test. You should listen to both with and without the sub, and both should be blind.

We're dealing with bookshelf speakers, and for the most part, in the real world, we'll listen to them paired with a subwoofer. Listening without a subwoofer is a good to get an idea of the characteristics of the speaker, but the real test is WITH the subwoofer - if that's how you'll be listening to it at home, no?

I did this very test at home myself. I brought home speaker A and speaker B. (Not using brand names, because it's irrelevent).

Alone with no subwoofer, A & B were very comparable speakers. Speaker A was a bit more detailed in the high end, but lacked much heft in the lower end. Speaker B on the other hand was much superior in the lower end, but lacked the detail of speaker A. Then I flipped on the subwoofer. With the added subwoofer, the difference between the two speakers was like night and day. Speaker A was clearly the superior speaker, as the clarity and details which were it's fortes, now blended with the low end of the sub, and made for a clear, full-bodied, rich sound. Speaker B on the other hand still suffered from the lack of detail in the highs, but now it's "superior" low end did nothing for it. It sounded "muddy" as though it were being played from behind a damp cloth.

My point is this. Without the subwoofer, I wasn't sure which speaker I'd buy, and if I didn't own a subwoofer, I may very well have purchased speaker B. But the fact is, I do own a subwoofer, as do most all of us here. Don't you want to know what the speakers sound like, as you'll actually be listening to them?"

Since this is the Axiom board, I'll let you know that it was the M22ti vs. Energy C-3, that I was comparing.

Though their "shoot out" was flawed, they did a commendable job considering how many speakers they were trying to listen to in one evening.

I'm hoping we'll be able to do a round two with just the Ascends, Axioms, and Aperions. This time blind and with the added sub. (yeah, I'm sticking to my sub idea!)

-Craig

Guys, these are great ideas, and would certainly make the face-off a bit fairer. But, I still think that the blind testing is not necessarily the answer.

Take the Rocket owner again as an example. He obviously prefers and has grown accustomed to the Rocket sound. Even if the test is blind, I would imagine that he would still prefer the sound of his Rockets, and possibly still describe the Axioms as metallic and tinny. I have never heard the Rockets, but from reading descriptions, their sound is probably clearly differentiated from the Axioms. And this would likely be picked out by owners of each and preferred accordingly.

So, since psychology would probably enter into even a blind testing, as long as people will be listening to their own speakers in the face-off, I don't think there is an easy answer. But, I do like the idea of using a sub, because my M22's really shine when used with my sub, and are clearly not as good when used without a sub. This is interesting stuff though.

Agreed. I LIKE "bright" (I call 'em "crisp") high ends. I like the tight, clean details. Some people don't. Blind or not, they won't like a "bright" sounding speaker.

They did make a point of stating that these were their opinions and nothing more. They were very fair in that sense. And of course if you've read many posts on that board, there are a LOT of Rocket fans there.

Though blind listening would help when it comes to prejudging. The Axioms received prettly low marks all around for style - or lack thereof. (I have to agree - I REALLY want some wood veneered Axioms). If you HATE the way a speaker looks, you're already mentally leaning to the negative side when you hear it.

Good ideas, Craig. Blind testing doesn't remove differences that actually exist(and some do exist in speakers, although not to the "blow-away" extent sometimes described when fairly similar speakers are involved), but it does remove preconceived notions as to construction, brandname, price, etc. I noted that even Curtis used the term "metallic" twice in his first M22 impressions. Of course, no such characteristic sound exists; a speaker with a titanium dome tweeter can be made to sound as dull or "laid-back" as one desires by increasing the value of the resistor in the crossover. Conversely a speaker with a paper cone tweeter can be made to sound harsh(metallic?)with the opposite crossover treatment. Can't recall many comments about a "papery" or "plasticky" quality of a speaker.

I remember my first(anonymous)post here over a year ago in which I was somewhat derisive of an M2 listener who reported not only a ringing in his ears but a metallic taste in his mouth. In a later post he made clear that he didn't appreciate my advice to listen with a mint in his mouth and my failure to take him seriously.

This also brings to mind the occasion a few years ago when otherwise identical black and gold finished receivers were presented to a listening panel with the "explanation" that different output impedances were being tested. The panel members were in general agreement that the sound of the gold receiver was "warmer".

I suppose the bottom line may be that the mantra to "trust your ears" can't be applied to someone who's listening with preconceived notions.

Hi All....this is the famous Curtis.

First...let me say that the Axioms were not my least favorite of the bunch.

The word metallic was the word "I" chose, because that is how it sounded to me. You must admit that the M22's are bright speakers.

The speakers are clean sounding. I believe I stated that.

Did you read how I descibed the Rockets?....or the Aperions?

We did not do blind simply because of the amount of time we had...and the number of speakers.....I hauled four pairs of speakers there and a center channel.

Pre-conceived notions? Don't you think you may have some as well. Yes...a blind test would help that.

I spent a total of 5 hours listening to the Axioms...and about 5 listening to the Aperions, and did not listen to MY Ascends for two days...trying to clean my "palette"

I can not honestly tell you if I am biased in any way...but I hope I am not.

There were three people there that did not own any of the speakers that were being reviewed.

This negativity to the reviews is exactly why I had hoped an Axiom owner/person could have attended.

I am more than happy to answer any questions you have.

curtis

Welcome, Curtis. I only mentioned you specifically because you received the M22s and were the first of the group to use the forbidden word. Also, my recollection of the guy who reported a metallic taste in his mouth certainly wasn't meant to imply that your comments were of a similar nature, but merely to illustrate the lengths of silliness we sometimes hear on this subject.

I enjoyed reading your impressions and I'm sure that it would be interesting if you and Craig were able to get together for a more detailed analysis.

The Axioms were tested against some of what I would call higher end speakers. Certainly the VMPS 626 are a much more expensive speaker than the Axioms M22. I was very interested in the results and not really surprised.

The bottom line for me is that I know the problem lies in the Axiom crossover parts. These other speakers are using crossovers with better parts. If the M22's were tested with with higher grade caps,resistors, & inductors the talk would have shifted from a discussion of metallic sounding drivers to one of air & detail.

I would be happy to build a high quality crossover for Axiom to test out on the M22. Again, I have rebuilt the crossover of my M60, VP150, & QS8 using point to point wiring, factory inductors (didnt have the values to do a replacement) and exact value replacement with high end caps & resistors.

End result on my speakers was really wonderful. With a new high end crossover this face off test would have come out very different. (Just my humble opinion)