Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Speaker face-off this weekend

have read thread here and at other forums, and yes i do own axioms. how can an unbiased test be done by anyone who owns better than htib speakers subjectively? dumb as it may sound, newbies who have not purchased anything yet need to compare the different brands. geographically this might be a nightmare as readers are from all over. i'm sure even my wife would chose the axioms in a blind test because she has listened to them and is accustomed to them. i would love to attend a boston based shoot out as an observer only. people could be polled by the various speaker companies, give away a system comparable to their 1st choice as a reward for their time and testing. maybe i'm all wet on this, but to me this is a way to get unbiased opinions, getting someone who has not listened to any of the speakers about to be tested.

John,

Thanks for the welcome.

Yes...the higher end speakers were there as well, but we specifically compared the "budget" speakers with each other. After that was complete, we then moved on to the expensive stuff.

I am looking forward to getting together with Craig, but please be aware, my setup and space is much more limiting than Mad Dog's.

curtis

curtis

Hey Curtis, thanks for showing up. Your shoot-out was interesting reading. And, keep in mind that I am not dismissing or disputing your opinions--they are your opinions and that is obviously fine.

I honestly think, as JohnK noted, that the use of the word "metallic" leads to the strongest rebuttal from Axiom owners. We all know that Axiom advertises aluminum woofers and titanium tweeters. So, yes, there can be implied a metallic undertone to their sepeakers. But, I know that personally, I have played Norah Jones (one of your test disks) for a ton of people in my home using the Axioms, and everyone has said that it sounds beautiful. And obviously, the large amount of professional reviews have (and take them for whatever they are worth) never mentioned anything about a metallic sound. While Axioms may be somewhat bright, having a somewhat higher tweeter output does not impact their stellar midrange, and I have never found listening to them to be a problem. Who knows, maybe this results from my always using a sub with my M22's, and the help a sub provides to balancing the sound.

So, please accept our respectful disagreement with some of the findings from the face-off. And, the bottom line is, Axioms are not the choice for everyone, the same way the Rockets and other speakers are not the choice for everyone. The beauty is, there are tons of great brands out there now, for every taste.

Steven,
Don't you believe that Axiom has spent alot of time and dollars researching such items?
How is it that you have come to define a better method without having the same testing facilities and R&D that Axiom does?
Have you blind tested your new designs against the old ones and used a panel of other people to generate the numbers?
If not, then other than your own ears why should anyone believe your statements?

Gem,

Thank you.

Respectful disagreement is respectfully accepted.

The "metallic" word may have been a bad choice, but it was merely a description. By the way, I am not a good writer.

I like the Axioms, and agree the midrange is very good. And yes, my Hsu VTF-3 does make a difference....as with the Ascends and Aperions too.

I do have a question on the brightness of the speaker. Do you think I gave them enough playing time before the review? Fifteen or so hours at a higher than usual (for me) listening level. Is break-in critical for the M22?

By the way, I have a friend coming over this evening. Before we head out for dinner/movie, she wants to hear the speakers, Ascends, Aperions, and Axioms. They will all be side by side by side on my shelf. She is not an audiophile, she had a set of Bose Acoustimass a while ago, and currently is using a set of smaller Radio Shack speakers. Would you folks be interested in what she thinks.

Also, a co-worker looking to replace his older Paradigms took the Axioms home with him yesterday. He was very much interested in them after looking at the Axiom website. I will post his thoughts as well if you like.

OK, here we go ... when someone says something Chesseroo doesn't agree with, he says something like, "other than your own ears why should anyone believe your statements?" If you say you A/B tested the issue with other people who agreed, he'll tell you that your testing methods are defective and urge you not to believe what those people heard either. I don't know whether he intends to be rude.

In any case, I have a bunch of M22 like speakers which use the same drivers as Axioms do. I do not know whether these speakers use the same cross overs, but I'd guess they probably do. In any case, I took one pair apart replaced the tiny capacitors with great big Jenson paper/oil caps and the resistors with Caddocks. The sound (which I love out of the box) opened up and smoothed out. Now, of course, that's just by my ears, so why should anyone believe my statements either?

That's why I've suggested, from time to time, that Axiom make a "Gold" or "Platinum" series of upgrades for every speaker in their line-up, one which would use upgraded parts in the cross-overs. I think for a modest increase in production cost Axiom could step up and take on even more expensive speakers than they already do.

Curtis, welcome to the site.

As you should have seen in my earlier post on nit picking, several points remain valid.
Blind testing is the only way to remove any bias that people have before reviewing speakers.

What you could have done with your testing was this:
Invite ppl over for a listen but don't even tell them what speakers they will be listening to.
Put up the grille cloth that Amie had provided you in front of the speakers.
And then yes, you need to have TIME and PATIENCE to do the listening properly.
You could setup any sets of speakers behind the listening area and you (and only you) would be the one to do all the speaker changing.
Sure it is alot of effort, but the results from people not even knowing what brands were behind the grille were being used could easily have provided alot of different descriptions.
In fact, a fun addition to this test would be to ask each listener to try and guess the brand after hearing each.

The time for the brain to adjust to new sounds is variable but typicallly takes longer than an hour or two (many people falsely believe this is actually speaker break in time). Your weekend testing should incorporate two days at least. The first day ppl can make first impressions and listen lots. Give them a night to 'cleanse' their pallettes and then have them back the next day for brunch and another round of listening. I bet hearing speakers a second time a day later may change from their first impressions. I know mine did when i first heard my Axioms on day one and was a bit upset they didn't 'blow me away" like so many ppl had posted they would. Heck, someone may have been in a bad mood the day before, or perhaps even imbibed too much wine.

As JohnK had mentioned about the 'metallic' thing, did it ever occur to you that ppl often research the speakers they are about to hear before listening to them?
Several have mentioned in past posts how metal drivers always sound "metallic and tinny" while silk tweeters seem to be 'soft'.
I think JohnK had put it into the best perspective in stating:
"Can't recall many comments about a "papery" or "plasticky" quality of a [poly or paper driver based] speaker. "

More test music is required and it should be familiar to the listeners. I cannot stress that one enough. It is apparent this Norah Jones cd is recorded very different from the classical music you used since the Jones showed brightness while the classical violin did not. This may be a fault of the recording, not the speaker.

Beyond those major issues, your listening session is a great idea, but when ppl (newbies) on forums use that info to base their buying decisions, i find it to be very lacking in completely accurate info.
Kudos to your attempts to get across to people that they are just your opinions though. Nonetheless, some do take them as gospel.

As for the idea that we over on the Axiom forums are biased, of course we are, to some extent.
I myself have mentioned that my Axioms are bright, but since that is my preference especially for HT purposes, i'm thrilled. For music it makes them detailed and if you have a well recorded music piece, it really shows! Unfortunately many music cds have that edge of higher treble from the designs of the sound mixing ppl that is hard to work with.

Eventually my wife and i will be putting together a second system, stereo and music based only and chances are we will not be buying a second set of Axioms for the main speakers.
Why?
Because shopping for something new and different is just more fun. Who the heck would want to own nothing but the same Honda Civic model each year, for both husband, wife, kids all the time for 20 years? Where's the fun in that?
So in regards to Axiom bias, yes, i know i certainly do have some since afterall, i do own them. But please don't believe our comments or rebuttals are based solely on such premises. Some of us do try to be more objective than that on the whole. For some of us, its our livelihood.

2x6spds
Please keep your personal attacks to yourself or send them to me in a private message.
You are being very discourteous in trying to pick open fights.
If you have a rebuttal, make it general and not personal.

chesseroo...

I agree with everything you say, your points are valid. But please remember how we prefaced this whole event. We are amateurs...plain and simple. Criticizing our event after the preface is ridiculous. I really hope someone takes the time to do a comparison with your requirements.

We had about 4 hours to listen to 7 pairs of speakers and 3 centers. It was fun, and a great experience. Good people, good food, and good music.

Simple question, do you think you would have the same criticisms of our get together if we liked the M22s more?

Hrmm, so someone, in their own home, with their own equipment, listened to a bunch of speakers, and decided they did not like Axioms. Right, and this affects you and I, as Axiom owners, how?

Several owners/posters have indicated they may sacrifice the "accuracy" of the Axioms for something more musical, including that blind-testing advocate that shall remain nameless who indicated a preference for Tannoys (I have a pair of older 605? also). If an individual has so much affinity for a product and chooses to ignore the obvious "defects" of it, how is that any different from believing "myths" like biwiring, biamping, etc etc ...

Somelike dislike the speakers I have. Big deal. I like them (enough to keep listening to them). That's all I care.

Happy listenin'