Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Advice on Speakers

Hi - I'm considering getting some axiom speakers in the near future, but I have a few questions. At school I will be in an apartment which will probably change every year. Most of them will be 15x15x8. I listen to mostly music (jazz, jam bands, rock and classical) and like to listen loud at times. I am considering the m2, m22 or m60 speakers.

1)In the Soundstage review of the m22's, the reviewer noted that when pushed hard on brass instruments these speakers get irritating and sharp. Has anyone experienced this, and if so, would the m60s sound the same in this regard?

2) How much harder can the m60s be pushed in comparison to the m22s? What about the M2s and the M60s?

3) How far back do I need to be for a decent soundstage with each speaker?

4)I am also considering the svs 25-31pci or 10" Titanic sub kit. Which speakers would match up better with which sub? I like for the bass to go rather deep but still perform extremely well with music.

Thanks for your help.

Gary

hi Gary,

I would suggest getting the M22's plus the SVS.

M60's might be a little overkill, but they wouldn't be wasted if you did get them. Just remember the price difference is almost the same as the price of a sub if you get the M22's.

Don't get the M2's, they'll be too small for your needs.

Harshness? I have the M22's and listen to lot's of jazz and blues. I don't think the M22's are any harsher than the recording. The Getz/Gilberto CD sounds as smooth as a baby's bottom

I too suggest the M22ti. Though for a sub, I would suggest the Hsu VTF-3 (or VTF-2). The SVS subs are great, but in the two side-by-side comparisons I've read, the Hsu is a bit tighter - better for music. The SVS's give better boom for HT.

As far as the M22ti being irrating - I also agree, bad recording in = bad playback out. The M22's are a fantastic speaker. Very detailed, and clean, clean sounding. They aren't going to "soften" up any bad recordings. That's one of the biggest things I've noticed since I got mine. Before my M22's most cd's sounded the same. Now with the M22's, well recorded cd's really shine. Poorly recorded ones, stand out as being just that - poorly recorded.

I, too, recommend the M22ti over your other choices. What initially may sound like harshness from them is just the brutal truth. They are extremely revealing speakers, but that is a GOOD THING. They make great recordings shine, but will show the flaws of lesser recordings.

Also, I would not discount SVS. I've got their "smaller" box sub (they now have two). Although I have not heard the HSU VTF-2 or 3 side-by-side with the SVS, they are in the same ballpark with quality and bang-for-buck.

I can't imagine carting M60s from dorm room to dorm room for 4-5 years. The high probability of your gear getting stolen by thieves or damaged by roommates would be another factor for me.

Brass on my M60s sounds excellent. Only loud, strident trumpets have come close to annoying, but to be fair - they eventually become annoying to me in person. Miles Davis' CD "Love Songs" is incredible on my Axioms.

The dorm rooms I lived in had tile floors and concrete walls. If yours are like that too, you may want to consider the more laid-back M3s.

I'm not suggesting he forget the SVS. Everyone agrees that Hsu and SVS make the best subs for your money. I'm just saying that in the reviews I've read, the Hsu is a bit tigher.

Thanks for all the great feedback. It's going to be an apartment with carpeted floors, though I have hardwood at home. Hopefully I'm done with dorms, which is great because they are very unfriendly for HT. After reading your comments, I'm leaning more towards the m22s. However, I would like to know if anyone has compared the Titanic 10" kit to the Hsu or the box svs? I think it'd be best if I got a smaller, tighter musical sub now and get the big svs added on for HT once I get my own place. Thanks again.

Gary

I've auditioned the M22ti and the M60ti. I kept the M60s, but I recommend the M22s for your situation. I agree with BigWill that given your room dimensions, there's no point in lugging around the M60s. The main difference between the speakers is more bass in the M60s and they can be driven to higher levels without dynamic compression. The latter should not be a concern in an apartment. There's also a doubling in price from the M22s to the M60s.

As for the Titanic sub, I can't offer a direct comparison with the Hsu VTF-2, but I do own the 10" Titanic and I'm very happy with it. I bought it new from Parts Express on E-bay for $262 + $42 shipping, which is less than the normal $350 with shipping included. I was impressed with the quality of the components and the solid construction. It was easily assembled as advertised. The bass is very tight (it has a sealed enclosure) and does a great job in music and home theater. The Hsu VTF-2 has received great reviews, although I've never heard one. It normally sells for $499 + $45 shipping, which is nearly $200 more than the Titanic. The amp is 150 watts vs. the 250 in the Titanic. I don't think you could go wrong either way: $750 for the M22ti and 10" Titanic sub or $944 for the M22s with the Hsu VTF-2. With either choice, you'll end up with a system that sounds much better than you would expect for the money spent.

So I took the plunge and ordered both a pair of the m22s and the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170s. I'm in a bit of a delimma here because I like the clarity of vocals and guitars on the m22s but they sound a tad thin(for lack of a better word) for my tastes. I like the smoothness and fullness of the Ascends, but they lack the openness and clarity of the m22s. I am on a 30 day trial for both and was wondering if anyone had any advice on how the other Axioms compare to the m22 given my tastes. Other brand recommendations are welcome also.

did you play either paired with a sub - or just alone?

oh...also - Hsu offers free shipping now.

In reply to:

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I like the clarity of vocals and guitars on the m22s but they sound a tad thin(for lack of a better word) for my tastes.

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Were you listening to the M22 with a level-calibrated subwoofer? Without a sub, the M22 can surely sound thin, not because of its midrange/treble character, but simply because its lack of bass below certain frequencies. The M22 does NOT emphasize mid-bass like many other bookshelves -- it is really flat to a point, and then just falls off. Sounds truly great with a sub.

Yes...that's my point. The M22's really need to be paired with a good sub. Before I bought mine, I did a side-by-side with the Energy C-3's, and without a sub, I may very well have gone with the energy's, but I realized that I would be using a sub. So I did another listening session with the sub on. With that, there was no comparison. The M22's no longer sounded "thin". They were just clean and clear all the way through.

so...try your A/B test again vs. the 170's this time with a sub, and let us know what you think.

btw - your initial thoughts on the M22 vs the 170 are exactly how I felt as well. The M22's details are unrivaled.

I am doing the test with a Klipsch ksw-15(not mine). Even then I still think the m22s are a little lean. I've had the axioms for a week longer than the ascends(got them today) so I'll have to do some more in-depth testing tomorrow.

ps-thanks for the heads up on the hsu shipping

Gary, although there's no way to be sure exactly what "lean" means to you, I'd suspect that you may be used to an inaccurate "fullness" in some frequency range. Above the low bass, which the sub would handle, NRC measurements and personal listening show that the M22 is extremely accurate(some prefer a more "laid-back" response), so any emphasis in the upper bass which would give an impression of greater fullness would in fact be an inaccuracy in that speaker.

While that may be true. Scientificly accurate might not sound good to his ears. If every speaker manufacturer's goal was to make a scientifically perfect speaker, we'd have 100 companies making one speaker each, and they'd all sound the same.

In my own personal quest for audio bliss, I just sit back, close my eyes and listen. Which ever one sounds best to me is the one I'll buy. I pretty much ignore specs. (Granted, what makes me smile is generally a natural flat sound - but that's me. Heck some people love the sound of Rockets)

"Gary, although there's no way to be sure exactly what "lean" means to you, I'd suspect that you may be used to an inaccurate "fullness" in some frequency range. Above the low bass, which the sub would handle, NRC measurements and personal listening show that the M22 is extremely accurate(some prefer a more "laid-back" response), so any emphasis in the upper bass which would give an impression of greater fullness would in fact be an inaccuracy in that speaker."

As an Ascend owner, and someone that has a lot of respect for Axioms, this has got to be one of the most biased and misleading posts I have seen on the Axiom board. The advice given on this board is usually educated and helpful, and sure, sometimes with bias, but never misleading.

The M22 and CBM-170 have extremely flat, "accurate" curves. Even speakers with the same response curves can sound different. The fact that Gary percieves more fullness from the CBM-170 probably has less to do with the accuracy of the speaker than anythingelse. If the M60 has more fullness than the M22, is it because it is less accurate?

In reply to:

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If the M60 has more fullness than the M22, is it because it is less accurate?

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I say no.

One reason we chose the M60 over the M22 is for this very reason. The M22 sound was simply too small, too thin for our preferences. At the time, we were not considering adding a sub right away (some ppl may never add a sub) and it is ridiculous to suggest buying this as the compensating addition to the M22s if you are not interested in owning one.

Hi Curtis ,

I don't think JohnK was trying to imply that the Ascends are "colored" or inaccurate. Rather, he was pointing out the possibility that Gary's current speakers (or other speakers he listens to often) may have been colored, affecting his sense of neutrality.

Ouch! That is the same lack of tact I saw from members on the AVS speaker board.

Sushi,
Whether JohnK was talking about the Ascends or not, his post is still misleading. I could care less if he chose the Axioms over the Ascends. Both speakers have a great reputation. What would bother me is if Gary chose Axioms because he thought "they are supposed to be better" than somethingelse. Just like I dislike the sound of the Rocket RS150...but if someone chose them over the Axioms or Ascends...more power to them.

BigWil,
Thanks for that shot. Tact or no tact, this Axiom board has great info, higher percentage of educated posts than other boards.

JohnK's post was extremely misleading.

What I saw was misleading advice to try and sway Gary into thinking that the M22 was "better" than what he had perceived.

spiffnme is correct. Close your eyes, forget the brand, and go with what sounds BEST TO YOU.

Take a good look at what happenned here when someone didn't like a particular aspect of the M22.

Curtis, sushi's analysis of my reply is entirely correct, as should have been apparent from the phrase "used to", and as such it simply reflects the reality of the situation.

John,

With all due respect, what Gary is used to hearing probably has nothing to do with accuracy, especially in this case.

You are claiming that the sound that Gary did not like from the M22 was because it was accurate, and that the fullness that he does like is inaccurate. That is misleading.

If that is the case, which speaker is more accurate, the M60 or the M22?

After many A/B comparisons I have decided that I like the m22s better overall. The ascends are very nice speakers, but their midrange clarity is less than the axioms, and that does not suprise me as the ascends have one 6.5" woofer vs. the axiom's dual smaller woofers. I still prefer the smooth treble of the ascends however. The axioms also seem to have a raspy/metallic character to vocals, although this is relatively minor. I'm going to give some Energy's a listen as well as my friend's m3s and m80s. Thanks for everyone's advice. I will update here when I have made my decision.

Great speaker Gary. But oh no!! You used the "metallic" word!!

Which Energys are you going to listen to?

Wow...quite the little cat fight we've got brewing here!

I don't know if you're budget can handle jumping to the M60's but they have the detail of the M22's, the smoothed out highs of the Ascends, and they are "fuller" sounding than either of them.

Before I bought my M22's my next favorite speaker that I had demo'd at the time were the Energy C-3's. You may like them as well.

Good luck!

Oh Boy....I can tell already this is going to be fun after I post my results Wednesday.

Zarak...are you implying that you already know what the results are going to be?

Spiffnme, are you saying the m60s have a more laid back treble than the m22s? I had always assumed they were about the same.

I was just at spiffnme's place to listen to speakers. I think his quick assessment of the M60 vs M22 is spot on. I would not call it laid back....but more finesse may be a better description. I like the M60.

If I may also interject, Ascend's currently un-advertised, but available via phone call, left/right version of the CMT-340 may also be to your liking. Not as big sounding as the M60, but may be worth a listen.

OK...the M60 sounds great, what does the M80 sound like in comparison?

David over at Ascend sent me some pictures of the l/r 340s on their stands and they look quite nice.(pm me if you want to see them). I would guess that their character is pretty close to the 170s.

They are more foward than the 170's. More dynamic, a little more clarity in the highs. Basicly, it seems was was called a weekness (if you could call them that), Ascend addressed it in the 340. And yes, with the stands, they look great!

spiffnme got to hear them at his place. I will allow him to comment on their sound. I don't want to sound biased.

The M60s do not have a more laid back treble than the M22s.
They utilize the same tweeter. Any difference is very minute and barely worth describing if at all.

I don't think that's what Craig (Spiffnme) was saying. I've auditioned both and didn't notice a difference in the treble.

No, not at all. No matter what they end up being it seems to get people worked up is all I am saying. I have never heard the Ascends and have had the Axioms for about 4 months. I'm going to try to be as unbiased as I can and just decide which ones I like better. I don't feel that the Axioms have to win just because I own them.

I understand totally Zarak. And it is not a win or lose matter. Neverless, I am sure you will have a good time.

Hello all:

Gary, as a recent (mid June) Ascend owner, (it will also be my 170's Zarak will get to listen to on Wednesday) I would suggest you give them some time to break-in before you make your final decision. I say this not to sway your decision because I really don't care what speaker you choose, but in my case I found that my initial impressions of the 170's was that they lacked some detail in the highs on female vocals. I found myself ticking the treble up a notch, the need to do so went away after about a week. Whether this was break-in on my ears or on the speakers or receivers (NAD T752) part I don't know. Just thought I would share my experience.

Can't wait until Wednesday!

Johnny, yes that is exactly how the ascends sound right now. If I turn the treble up they actually sound better, and vocals are a little recessed. I'm going to burn them in for a while longer. Thanks for your comments.

One thing I learned this weekend was the importance of a speaker switch. Makes it so much easier to compare speakers! Maybe one of you guys can head to Radio Shack and pick one up, along with some extra speaker wire. You will be glad you did!

yep...that was $30 well spent.

Yep Gary, that is exactly what I should have said "vocals seemed recessed". I noticed this mostly with female vocals, particularly with some discs from "the cranberries".

The message about wire below reminded me...please bring that too....I don't have extra lying around to hook up another set of speakers with. Mine are hooked up with 12 gauge from Home Depot.

I know its late...but maybe you guys can track down a Rocket RS150/250 owner for Wednesday.

Ok, I will bring my speaker wire as well. It is 12 ga. Sound King with banana plugs. Wire is about 6.5 feet long each, will this be enough?

This is off the topic but...

Last week I had a chance to listen to the B&W CDM NT 6.1 system at Floyd Pierce’s house (he is a moderator at the HomeTheaterSpot forum). Boy, the sound was significantly “brighter” than what my ears are used to at my home -- i.e., the Hales/Axiom system. His room didn’t seem to have any highly reflective surfaces that could make the speakers sound bright, nor did he use any EQ’s. I don’t want to sound like I am saying that his B&W sounded bad; in fact, they were impressive speakers. But my observation remains that they were clearly brighter (which I didn’t necessarily dislike) than my own system. Some people assert that the Axioms are one of the brightest speakers they’ve ever listened to. But now I certainly object these opinions after listening to these B&Ws in a non-dealer setting.

Incidentally, in my definition, a “brightness” of sound usually means a hump in the mid-high regions of 2-8 kHz (especially 3-5 kHz), and often comes hand-in-hand with "forwardedness."

If you plan on using that little radio shack switcher, it won't accept bananas. You'll have to use bare wire.

My impression of the B&Ws I listened to (at the same time I listened to Hales) was that they were way, way too bright for me. I much preferred the Hales, Axiom, and Magnepan sounds (not that I've ever heard the latter 3 at the same time)

6.5 ft each should be enough.

LOL ZaraK!!!

Quick question: Do any speakers in the axiom line have a little warmer sound for vocals than the m22ti?

M3ti, M40ti, and M50ti have all been described as more "laid back" than the M22, M60 and M80. Or not as "bright". They may be more what you're looking for.

Could someone tell me if the treble on all of axiom's speakers sounds about the same? Specifically the m3ti and the floorstanders.

As Craig has just said, I understand that the timbre of the M3 (especially treble) is more similar to the M40/M50 than to M60/M80.

Thanks sushi I was looking for an answer on the treble specifically

Gary, I own both M22's and M3's, and while I haven't performed extensive A/B comparisons between the two, their treble characteristics are certainly similar. But, as has been mentioned, the M3's have a slightly warmer, less forward sound than the M22's (and M60's from what I hear). So, don't expect a dramatically different treble character between the different Axiom speakers, but there definitely are the warmer vs. brighter speakers in the lineup.

When I compared the two, I preferred the more forward sound of the M22's, which I kept in my main system, and put the M3's in my bedroom.