Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11934 06/11/03 12:42 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 73
tobz67 Offline OP
old hand
OP Offline
old hand
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 73
I'm putting together my first home theater/music setup in a fairly small - 12x17 living room. I recently ordered some M3s after reading great reviews on websites and in this forum. I really liked the sound so I ordered some M50s to replace some old handed down Realistic Optima 3 ways.

Once the M50s arrived I was really disappointed with how they sounded - really muffled. I'd read about break in periods so I've run them almost 24/7 for the last week. They did open up, but compared to the old Realistics, they still sound very muffled, almost as if there's cotton in my ears when I'm listening to them. I've played with positioning quite a bit, though my options are somewhat limited. I've got to crank the Denon 2803 they're driven by to get any real volume out of them and the image from them just seems very flat. Now I understand that the dual 6.5" just may not put out what the old 10" Realistic drivers did. So ordered some M60s after reading much more in this forum and they should arrive tomorrow, hopefully I'll hear a big difference in the mids and the imaging.

Now I also ordered a VP100 and again, was not overly impressed with it's presence. It does sound very clear, however not very deep. I'm used to listening to movies through the old towers so part of it is the adjustment to the surround sound format. I'm wondering if anyone has compared the VP100 to the VP150? Does the latter produce a significant increase in dispersion and bottom end?

I guess I'm really wondering if I'm going to have to add a sub or go the M80 route to get the bottom end and presence of the old speakers (if the 60s don't cut it), does it make sense to have towers up front? I'm having trouble justifying spending a sizable chuck of change to outperform what I thought were fairly basic old speakers. Should I just go with M3s or M22s up front and apply the extra to a sub?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11935 06/11/03 01:50 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,745
Likes: 17
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,745
Likes: 17
tobz67,
Just to get this one out of the way, speaker break-in is a myth.
If you want to read more about this psychoacoustic phenomenon, try out a general search on these forums. You will find plenty that has already been discussed.

That aside, i suggest you read through this relatively recent thread on this very subject of first time speaker experiences. What you read in reviews and from other users is not always what will happen or will become your experience as well.
Keep in mind, you are very used to hearing a certain sound from your old speakers that ANYTHING new will sound different and not necessarily "blow you away" better....simply different.

That being said, the M60s are apparently more bright (less laid back) than the M50s. If you desire more bass, then the M80s might be one way to go, otherwise add a sub to your M50s/M60s for lower end oomph.
Personally i'm not a fan of big bassy sounds in music (unless its required as with a pipe organ) so the tight bass of the Axiom M60s I find very pleasant.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11936 06/11/03 02:22 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236
I does sound to me like you're having some trouble adjusting to the new sound. But from your descripion of the sound, it does also sounds like you prefer a more detailed speaker. From what I've read on these boards, the M40 and M50 speakers (as well as the M3) are Axioms most "laid back" sounding speakers.

If I were you, before I gave up on Axiom, I would try one of two things.

1) (and this would be what I would do) Try out the M22ti paired with a Hsu VTF-2 subwoofer. Your living room is indeed not all that large. You can easily fill that room with a pair of M22's. The added Hsu will fill in the low end, with much better bass than you'll ever get from a tower speaker.

2) Try the M60ti's. They will give you more low end (not as much as adding a good sub), but they will also have much more detail in the highs than the M50's.

From what you've described, I think you'll be much happier with either of these options than you are with the M50's alone.



Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11937 06/11/03 04:08 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 73
tobz67 Offline OP
old hand
OP Offline
old hand
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 73
To chesseroo & spiffnme,

Thank you both for your input and insight. I have realized that what my brain thought I liked in sound and what my ears actually preferred were not one in the same.

Spiffnme, as you said, I think I do prefer more detailed speakers and my intial purchase was based more on horror stories about _overly_ bright speakers and the M3s I liked were described as more laid back, so I thought a more laid back tower was the right match. I hadn't accepted that I do prefer the detail and crisp upper end that only brighter speakers provide. I should pick up the M60s tonight and hopefully my brain will be much happier.

I think either the M60s or the M22s are probably a better match for me and a sub is probably in my future either way. Thank you both for your help.

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11938 06/11/03 04:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,270
connoisseur
Offline
connoisseur
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,270
Hi tobz67,

You've been listening to the fat, bloated bass from the old Realistic 10-inch drivers so long that you like it, prefer it, and it's become a kind of sonic reference for you even though it isn't accurate of natural. Lots of older JBL speakers and other brands had that tonal balance, and some people still love it, but it isn't neutral. Many club speakers in discos and the like have a similar unnatural pumped-up bass response for dance purposes.

Once you get used to the smooth, unexaggerated bass from the M60s or M22s (or M80s), you'll find the heavy coloration of some speakers 200-Hz bass hump quite unpleasant.

Regards,


Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert (Retired)
Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11939 06/11/03 04:49 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,951
connoisseur
Offline
connoisseur
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,951
My M60s replaced some older 12" DCM "boom-tizz" speakers and at first I also thought the bass of the Axioms was lacking. However, with a sub I can go FAR beyond the bass of those two 12" drivers. Usually I don't want that much bass so it is irrelevant. The quality of the bass in the Axioms is far superior to that of the bigger speakers, but those larger cabinets do provide more boom. I think you'll notice with the M60s that you can discern individual drum beats and bass notes with far more clarity than the big box speakers.

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11940 06/11/03 05:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236
Yes...exactly. I personally have never been a big fan of booming bass. One thing I really do enjoy is being able to hear the individual bass notes. With a good, clear speaker, you can actually hear each note the bass player is playing. Not just on overall low frequency "boom" beat. It's very cool.



Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11941 06/12/03 04:40 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 70
HGP Offline
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 70
I also use the M60s and they deliver plenty of bass. But it's not the fat, bloated bass in may competing speakers that Alan referred to in his post. Rather, it's crisp, accurate bass that BigWill described in which you can hear every note. That's the transparency that many of us seek.

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11942 06/20/03 08:36 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 30
prz Offline
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 30
Agree with Alan, based on reviews Axioms are very flat in bass response (which is good if you care about music rather than boom box effect). I went even further and corrected my room modes with some digitial gimics so I correct for bass resonance in my room. Originally, you perceive it as 'thin sound' but after very short time you realize that you hear much more music becasue the bass hump doesn't overly the detail and if speakers placed correctly for bass smear, you realize that the rhytm is more precise in the music making it much more involing. It's a little like people going from Coke to red-wine, an education of taste ;-)

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11943 06/20/03 05:41 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 73
tobz67 Offline OP
old hand
OP Offline
old hand
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 73
Thanks to all for your feedback and insight!

I had started out to build a nice home theater and I've ended up going through an audio renaissance! The M60s are MUCH better for me. The clearer midrange is awesome. They do go lower than the 50s and perhaps because of the difference in driver configuration, with the dedicated midrange, they just seem to produce a more dynamic range (at least that what my rapidly changing brain and limited vocabulary seem to describe it as).

Well now that I'm so happy with this upgrade, I'm thinking I may want to move up to the VP150!

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11944 06/20/03 06:06 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236
Glad you like them! If you do indeed intend to add a subwoofer, I cannot recommend enough, the Hsu VTF-2 or VTF-3. Both sound the same - nice tight, clean, quick bass. GREAT for music, and they have plenty of guts for those wonderful booms in HT. The VTF-3 will just be able to go even lower, and play even louder then the VTF-2. Both are amazing. I have the VTF-2, and would LOVE to get the VTF-3 (mostly for that fantastic new Rosewood veneer than anything else!)

Enjoy your speakers!

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11945 06/20/03 08:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
shareholder in the making
Offline
shareholder in the making
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
Dear spiffnme,

We regret to inform you that we have terminated your Hsu Research Online Evangelist Payment Program (tm) account. As per the contract you read and signed when you joined the program, Hsu Research limits its members to ten (10) evangelizations per week. You have exceeded that quota by 36.7%, and are thus subject to immediate termination.

Please understand that Hsu Research appreciates your hard work and harbors no ill will towards you, and that this policy was set in order to protect our cash reserves (which would soon run out if we kept you in the program).

As a token of our appreciation, please find attached a picture of my beautiful VTF-3R.

Sincerely,
Dr. Poh Ser Hsu



Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11946 06/20/03 09:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236
That is too funny!

Sigh...that's a beautiful sub...

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11947 06/20/03 09:17 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 73
tobz67 Offline OP
old hand
OP Offline
old hand
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 73
I don't think I'll need a sub with the M60s, but I certainly want one!

I'd like to ask you about the HSU. I've pretty much narrowed it down to the VTF-2 or the SVS PB-1D. Now the HSU is both cheaper and smaller. I've read some postings that suggest the HSU can go lower and may be a better musical sub. I've also read that it tends to do some port huffing during serious home theater workouts. This could have been just some SVS owners bashing the competition. Have you experienced any port noise?

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11948 06/20/03 09:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236
I've only once heard any port noise, and that was in LOTR, when the Goblin drums start beating. (Just after the little hobbit dude drops the skeleton down the well)

Though from what I've heard, almost every sub has trouble with that scene. Other than that, I've never heard a peep.

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11949 06/20/03 09:50 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 73
tobz67 Offline OP
old hand
OP Offline
old hand
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 73
Thanks for the info. That issue was really the only major mark against HSU for me. If you've only experieced that in one scene, I'm sure the issue was exaggerated by some overly loyal SVS owners. I've read the SVS may have more house shaking ability, but that's not really that important. Sure I want some kick, but I also want accurate sound which seems to be the strength of the HSU.

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11950 06/20/03 10:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
shareholder in the making
Offline
shareholder in the making
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
I'm a loyal SVS owner and I really love my PB1-ISD, but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the VTF-2. I'm just waiting for the day that I can hear them both side-by-side and draw my own conclusions as to which I prefer.

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11951 06/20/03 11:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 216
local
Offline
local
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 216
I use a VTF-2 with a pair of M60s, and I like having the bottom octave or two filled in by the sub. I actually bought an ICBM specifically to be able to use the sub for two-channel listening.

I've only heard inappropriate noise from my VTF-2 once, and it was on a track that destroyed the driver in my brother-in-law's SVS.

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11952 06/21/03 03:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 70
HGP Offline
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 70
It sounds like you have upgradeitis like me. I started with the M22s (great speakers but not enough for my large room). I ended up with the M60s, and I'm very happy. I tried to get by with the VP100s, but upgraded to the VP150s.

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11953 06/21/03 04:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,490
connoisseur
Offline
connoisseur
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,490
tobz67,

Are you sure you've read that the VTF-2 can go lower than the SVS PB1-ISD? I thought that the PB1-ISD is more comparable to the VTF-3, rather than the VTF-2. Indeed, with respect to the specs and physical size, the PB1-ISD is quite similar to the VTF-3 in the Max Output mode (two ports open).

Personally, if I had to choose between the VTF-2 and PB1-ISD, I would probably go with the SVS (assuming that you don't mind the bigger size). The VTF-2 is surely an excellent sub, but I don't think it defies the basic laws of physics -- the fundamental designs being similar, the larger the box, the deeper and louder it plays.

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11954 06/21/03 05:34 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 73
tobz67 Offline OP
old hand
OP Offline
old hand
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 73
Yep, seems like I'm walking a similar path. Well the VP150 is on the way. How does it sound compared to the VP150?

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11955 06/21/03 11:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 70
HGP Offline
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 70
I still haven't hooked it up. I have to make serious modifications to my entertainment center to make room for it. I'll post a comparison sometime this weekend when I've had a chance to compare the two.

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11956 06/22/03 10:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 62
500 Offline
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 62
I have a pair of m50's and do not think that they are as laid back as every one here is saying. There are certain times ( usually with movies and not music ) that they appear to be bright, almost too bright. Before I bought them I had listend to Paradigm and Definative tech speakers in the same price range as the M50's, I dont recal the model numbers. The Paradigm's were way to bright for me. The definatives were not bright at all but had a boomyness to them. The M50's seem to be the happy medium between the sharper Paradigms and the Definative tech. Never listend to the m60s (live in U.S.) and there a little out of my price range.

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11957 06/23/03 01:46 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236
Goes to show you that what sounds "good" is VERY subjective. One man's gold is another man's trash. Thankfully there are a TON of speakers out there to please everyone!

Re: Advice on recent M50 purchase
#11958 06/24/03 03:49 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
shareholder in the making
Offline
shareholder in the making
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
All right, i'm just gonna have to try that with my sealed enclosure sub... Now you've got me curious.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  alan, Amie, Andrew, axiomadmin, Brent, Debbie, Ian, Jc 

Link Copied to Clipboard

Need Help Graphic

Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics24,940
Posts442,457
Members15,616
Most Online2,082
Jan 22nd, 2020
Top Posters
Ken.C 18,044
pmbuko 16,441
SirQuack 13,840
CV 12,077
MarkSJohnson 11,458
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 386 guests, and 4 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newsletter Signup
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4