Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Hsu VTF-3 vs. SVS 20-39 PC-Plus

I'm about to upgrade my 10" sub, and I'm considering the Hsu VTF-3 and the SVS 20-39 PC-Plus. I would like recommendations -- particularly from those that have compared those two subs. I have a fairly large space to fill. The main listening area is 20' X 15' with a 10' ceiling; it is completely open to the back to a comparably sized kitchen/breakfast area. To top it off, between those two areas is an open entryway leading to a dining room and living room. My current equipment consists of the Axiom M60ti's, VP150, and QS8s powered by a Denon AVR-3803. My usage is 70/30 music to HT. But keep in mind that with the M60s, the subs are rarely used in music.

What do you suggest?

Well, I've never listened to the SVS, but I guess it would be mainly the choice between box vs. cylinder designs. I can tell you that my VTF-3 is more than sufficiently powerful to fill our open living room (the room itself is about 18'x28'x10' but it is connected via large openings to a full kitchen/breakfast and to a two-story foyer and formal/dining, the entire volume being more than 15,000 cubic feet). The sub itself, however, sonically disappears entirely even through the loudest bass-heavy passages.

I would also strongly suggest you add your new sub for music listening in a 2.1 or 5.1 configurations -- once you get a high-quality sub, you going to enjoy a significant effect of the sub in adding the proper ambience, atmosphere and "attacks," even in case the music does not contain much of the bottom octave of bass frequencies, and even if you are using floorstanding L/R mains such as the M60's. I myself use the VTF-3 with 80Hz crossover with my Hales floorstander fronts (readily capable of going down to 35Hz or so), and don't want to go without the sub anymore.

I'm in the same boat as Sushi, and cannot give you a face to face comparison. Unlike Sushi, I have the SVS you are looking at. I really like it, but my guess is that they both sound great. The concern that you might want to watch out for is size - the SVS takes up space. It stands about as tall as my M80's.
If you haven't gone there, I would recommend going to ecoustics.com - they have reviews on a whole lot of subs, and a few months ago actually did a comparison between SVS, Hsu, and I think Axiom. (although I don't think it was these particular models)
One other similarity I have with Sushi is using the sub for all listening. I am at least 90% music - and wouldn't even think of listening to my M80's without the sub. Without dominating, it just adds a whole new dimension to the music experience.
Good luck with the sub. I cannot see how you can go wrong with either choice.

Heres that link at ecoustics...in case you couldn't find it.
http://www.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/1041.html

As you can see they use the pci from svs, the pc+ should be even better than what the reviewer describes.

I just bought a pair m80's and have a hsu vtf-2. My room is 15x20x 7.5 and only have the volume set about 11o'clock. to me it more than enought to fill anything below 40hz.This is what the crossover is set at.At about 350 to 400 less than the vtf-3 its worth a thought.

Yes, the VTF-2 and 3 are both pretty amazing. The VTF-3 will be able to go even lower though (18hz) vs the VTF-2 which can go only down to 25hz. As far as loudness...yeah, unless you're in a pretty large room, both will fill it nicely.

Too bad the VTF-2 doesn't come in the Rosewood. (though I hear they're working on it!)

Hello out there. When I did test zones on the vtf-2 it shook my whole room at 20hz. In the reviews I read the vtf-2 is said to go down to 20hz at 93db with one port open.On Hsu's website the vt3 does come in rosewood now.But it also cost more than 1000.00.

First, thanks for all the great advice.

The bottom line is that I decided to go with neither of the choices in my original post. I ultimately decided to order the SVS PB2-Plus. After taking into consideration the advice I received here together with my own prior research, I contacted Hsu Research and SVS, and I was VERY impressed with the customer service of both companies. I truly believe that based on my experience and research that it would be hard to go wrong with either company. The bottom line is that it would be a quite a challenge to fill my space (6200 cubic feet with two unclosable entryways to another 5000 cubic feet -- not counting space open to the second floor). Because the only mistakes I've made with my home theater purchases have been by trying to save a few dollars, I decided to increase the budget for the subwoofer and ended up ordering the SVS PB2-Plus, which features a 900-watt amp and dual 12" drivers. I won't receive it until the end of July or early August, but I'll post my impressions thereafter.

Thanks again for all your help.

HAHAHA... Yeah, I too want to try the PB2-Plus behemoth some day!

Be prepared though... The box is HUGE as judged from the photos posted in now-defunct AVS Speakers forum...

HGP,
I'm anxious to hear some more reviews of any kind on the SVS box style subs. Certainly that model looks rather impressive from the start.

I just came across this online re-posted review of a Hsu VTF3 sub (originally printed in The Audiophile Voice magazine, now listed on the Hsu site). Some of you may have seen it before.
What i had not noticed was his comparitive review of the VTF3 with an SVS 16-46 PC near the bottom end of the article. It appears he used test tones and an SPL for some measurements so an attempt for objectivity in his review is clear. Although this review gives the nod to Hsu, the comparitive description of the SVS and Hsu might be helpful to those considering both.

Here is the passage specifically on this comparison:
Part of my testing involved level-matched comparisons between the VTF-3 and several other upscale subs I had on hand. In a test-tone face off against a Velodyne F1800RII, with their outputs matched at 40 Hz, the two systems were subjectively identical down to about 30 Hz. At 20 Hz, the Hsu was 2dB louder than the Velodyne, although at moderately high levels the F1800RII was cleaner sounding at that test-tone frequency, but not by much. With musical selections the differences were impossible to detect at all, and it is likely that nobody could say that the Hsu was not a match for the Velodyne, unless the levels got really loud and low.

Against Hsu’s own TN1220HO model (driven by the new 250-watt Hsu amp mentioned previously), the results were identical in terms of output at both 30 Hz and 20 Hz, although at fairly high levels the TN1220HO was cleaner at 20 Hz. At 30 Hz, they paced each other right up to very high levels. With music, the subs were functionally identical sounding at sane listening levels.

Against an $850 SVS 16-46PC subwoofer, the two were equally clean at 30 Hz, at both soft and moderate levels, but with the SVS not quite so clean at higher levels. At 20 Hz, the units were essentially equal in terms of colorations. However, the SVS sub was 4 or 5 dB down from the Hsu at 20 Hz, with their levels matched at 40 Hz. With musical program sources, the two sounded essentially identical most of the time, with the Hsu perceptibly stronger below 25 Hz if the music contained such signals. This allowed the Hsu to have a slight edge with really super-clean, super-deep bass program sources.

I also gave the Hsu sub maximum-output tests at 31.5 and 20 Hz. In doing so, I locate my measurement microphone at the listening position, 17 feet from the corner-located test unit. Under those conditions, the VTF-3, configured for deepest extension, could cleanly hit 112 dB at 31.5 Hz and 100 dB at 20 Hz. Configured for maximum output, the numbers were 115 and 97 dB, respectively. As a point of reference, the TN1220HO, driven by Hsu’s new amp, could hit 113 dB at 31.5 Hz and 106 dB at 20 Hz. (In a previous review in another journal, using an older Hsu 250-watt amp, I measured 110 dB at 20 Hz. However, I am convinced that a slight change in microphone position skewed my reading.) The F1900RII could hit 114 and 110, and the SVS could hit 113 and 102.

Both the VTF-3 and SVS 16-46PC could play louder at 20 Hz than the limits noted, but in doing so they generated a fair amount of port noise. The TN1220HO and F1800RII were right up against their amp-output ceilings during those tests, and both were clean.

One way to separate the men from the boys with subwoofers is to see how well they perform with near-lethal movie soundtracks. I did my duty and watched the submarine movie U-571 on my living-room system with the VTF-3 handling all the bass. The depth-charge explosions in this film have to be heard to be believed, and believe me, they were heard in full force with the VTF-3.

Interestingly, I also did a brief face off between the VTF-3 and the low-priced VTF-2. For all intents and purposes, the two units sounded the same with typical bass material in a typical room. Only when bass dipped to below 25 Hz did the VTF-2 fall behind the VTF-3, although in a large room, at high output levels, there is little doubt that the bigger sub’s abilities would allow it to pull still further ahead. In its maximum-extension mode, the peak output of the VTF-2 at 31.5 and 20 Hz were 106 dB and 90 dB, respectively. Thus, the VTF-2 isn’t exactly chopped liver, and should be considered sensational for a $450 subwoofer, just not as good as what I got with the VTF-3.

Chess, yeah I trusted that particular review when I decided to buy the VTF-3 sight unseen.

sushi,

I think you need to get your hands on a comparable SVS sub and compare it to your VTF-3.

curtis

Sure, curtis! Just "bring them on!" Oops...

"Against an $850 SVS 16-46PC subwoofer"

The SVS 16-46PC costs $650.00 according to the SVS site. This would mean the comparison was done between a $850 HSU VTF-3 and a $650.00 SVS 16-46PC.. a better price match would be to compare it to the $825 20-39PC-Plus, or the $875 16-46PC-Plus. Both of these models feature a 525watt BASH amplifier, as apposed to the 320watt featured in the 16-46PC.

I wonder how true the wattage ratings are. Hsu is able to achieve great accuracy and output with a 250 watt "rated" amp, whereas SVS has higher ratings in same price range or comparable performance area.

BASH amps are very highly regarded are they not? I would think that the wattage is real, not exagerated.

Is BASH a type of amp, or brand of amp?

Just wondering, according what can be read, Hsu seems to get the control and outpur from a 250 watt amp, which compares to SVS's higher rated amps.

"This high output full-featured digital switching amp was designed by SVS in partnership with one of the most capable and largest original equipment manufacturers in the world."

For all the information, check out:

http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pci_features.htm#amp

It looks like BASH is a technology owned by a company called Indigo...

http://www.bashaudio.com/

Essentially, BASH is an analog power stage fed by digitally controlled power-rails. Its switching power supply continually varies the power-rail voltages according to the audio input signal, so that the rail voltage is always barely above the amp's output voltage swing. This greatly reduces the amp's power consumption, allowing a greater power output in a given package size. It is certainly a suitable amp technology for powered subs, in which the inevitable high-frequency noise coming from the digital power supply is much less of an issue.

BASH is not inherently superior or inferior with regard to sound quality compared to conventional analog power amps, except that it can achieve greater power output in smaller size.

svs doesn't sell pc subs any more. they've been replaced by the pci series which uses a better driver and amplifier. those additions bring it inline with the vtf3 or maybe a bit above from a comparison i have read.