Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo noob needs guidance! m22t

Hello,

Always wanted a HiFi Stereo setup, but never had much to spend. On advice of my friend purchased the m22ti, came yesterday, breaking them in now. So far they seem a little harsh for my ears (i listen to most types of music). He mentioned i would need a sub to really make m22t shine, and i just put an order for ep125 in the outlet but I couldn't find any reviews on the sub. The amp i am using is sonic impact super T-amp. I am concerned if the amp will drive the m22t and the ep125 well, its only ~10w per channel, and is the ep125 a good sub for the money? thanks!

ps. I tried searching but found nothing!

The EP125 has it's own built-in amp, so it does not require, and will not use, any outboard amplifier power. The T-amp should drive the M22's okay, provided you do not demand high/concert level playback, especially paired with a powered sub to relieve the T-amp of any bass duties.

Let us know how it all sounds.

Welcome urbanachiever

In reality speakers don't break-in, although many seem to think they do, I really don't want to start that flame war again...

I'm interested in what is causing you to use the word harsh. Axiom speakers are designed to be neutral and true to how the CD was recorded. So, if the particular CD was recorded poorly, those flaws will come out. On the other hand, properly recorded musice will sound great to your ears.

Do you have any Tone or EQ controls set for treble or midrange, this will make your speakers sound bad. Most will keep everything to zero.

I'm sure some m22 owners will jump in here and give advice, but I've never read any reviews calling the 22's harsh...I think a lot of people are used to speakers that are not efficient or detailed, so when they buy Axiom's their brain hears the difference. Once your brain "Breaks-In" you will like them...

Welcome!!

There was a review of the EP125 and M2 completed quite a few years ago; it can be found right here in the "reviews" section of this web site!

Yea, as soon as you enable an equalizer the m22's sound awful. I was reading people complaining they were harsh, and i'm like, wow, i guess I can sorta see that. *Click* turned off the equalizer on iTunes. All better. Perfect sound.

I used to think my M22s were a bit much. The longer I have them the more smooth and neutral they sound. I doubt the speaker has changed, so it must be the listenener unless I broke them. I agree they do sound best with bass or treble set flat or better yet with the tone defeated.

thanks for the advice. I am not using any sort of audio processing, and the T-amp has none. By sounds harsh i mean that the higher pitched sounds stand out and don't blend too well with the rest - but that goes away on some cds/mp3s. I also was pointed towards the HSU stf-1 sub. How is the m22/hsu stf-1 combo? Reading the m2/ep125 review it seems that ep125 is more meant for the m2 and the ep175 is meant for the m22, but I don't want to spend more on the sub atm.

thanks

Urb, the reason that it goes away with some CDs is probably because it's some CDs which are mixed "hot" in the upper mids/lower treble so as to sound more impressive on mediocre equipment which sound a bit harsh on accurate speakers such as M22s. Tone controls or equalizers can help some with bad recordings.

A STF-1 would suit the M22s just fine, but also consider the Outlaw LFM-2, designed with assistance from Dr. Hsu, which might even have a slight bit more extention.

Hi Urban,

I've not heard of a Sonic Impact Super T-amp. Is this a vacuum-tube device, given its tiny output? The M22s when fed with a clean signal from a well-designed solid-state amp or receiver (any Denon, H/K, NAD will be fine) will not sound harsh unless the source recording is harsh.

The EP125 is meant for rooms of modest size--dens, bedrooms or small living rooms, and in that setting it performs exceedingly well with any main channel Axiom bookshelf models. If your room is 2,100 cu. ft or larger, get a subwoofer like the EP175 or EP350 with a 10-inch or 12-inch driver, or something from Hsu.

I suspect your Super-T amp may not be linear (if it's a tube device it won't be; the output iimpedance will interact with M22's impedance curve and alter frequency response). If that happens, even a few dB variation in the midrange response can make an otherwise smooth and detailed speaker sound recessed or aggressive.

Try borrowing a good solid-state amp of the aforementioned brands, one with lots of power in reserve (at least 50 watts per channel or more) and known very low distortion levels and then see how the M22s sound. If you need recommendations for really good source recordings, you'll get lots of suggestions from everyone here.

Regards,

From reading a review of the Sonic Impact T amp it seems the distortion level sharply rises after 5 watts. I too would suggest as Alan does and try a different amp with the M22s. It would seem you could send this little amp into clipping real quick like.

Alan, the Sonic Impact Super T-amp is the latest 'new-fangled' digital amplifier, supposedly besting many conventional amp designs. As per usual with any new product rapidly adopted and hyped by audiophiles, verification of claims is scant to nonexistent.

I've heard the original version of this amp and it does the job admirably well for its low price of $30. The newer version is beefed up a bit and comes with a metal enclosure, a power supply, and decent binding posts.

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the feedback on the T-amp. One of the technical reservations that has been exressed by some experts on the use of wide-bandwidth digital amplifiers is they may not necessarily have 0 ohms output impedance, like a conventional analog solid-state amp. As such, a digital amplifier's output impedance could interact with the speaker impedance curve in the same manner as some tube amplifiers, causing frequency-response errors.

And with such low output, as has been pointed out, the distortion characteristics would increase as the amp approached clipping. "Sonic Impact" with 10 watts per channel seems a contradiction in terms.

Regards,

Thanks for the advice!
The version if T-Amp I have is this one http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/sonicimpact2/t2.html
so its a little more powerfull. I have a chance to connect the m22s to an Arcam Delta 290 (75w x 2) so that perhaps will allow me see whether the t-amp is clipping. For the sub it seems the people advise the hsu/outlaw so I am going to try that.

The M22s are well thought of by reviewers, same kind of guys who drum up audiophile hype for amps like the T-Amp.

I have or had M2i's, M3Tis, M22Tis, M50ti's, I also have Michaura M55s (same 5.25" drivers as the M22), M66s (same drivers as the M50 and M665s (same driver compliment as M60s).

I have used a 5 watt per channel SET tube amp with the M3tis, M22tis, and Michaura M55s and M66s. The 5 watt tube amp was magic with the M3Tis, the Michaura M55s (2x5.25" drivers and a 3/4" titanium tweeter - same as Axiom used on the old M2Tis) and the M66s. Sounded like crap with the M22Tis. Sounded great with the M3s, M55s and M66s. Go figure.

I currently use a T-Amp (slightly modded) with a pair of Michaura M55s. I'm using the Ah! Njoe Tjoeb tube output CD player with mods. The combination is terrific as long as you don't overdrive the little amp.

thanks again for all your advice, it has been really helpfull.
It turns out that I have a faulty T-amp. My friend's T-amp drives his m22s fine, and plenty loud. We also compared the t-amp to his arcam delta 290 (all would agree a "real" amp) and the m22s sound equally great on both, no audible sound quality differences. So it seems that T-amp can drive the m22s just fine, when it is working. Mine keeps on cutting in and out on the right channel, etc. So, for me, the m22s are a DEFINATE keeper. The T-Amp will go back to be exchanged for another T-Amp (it does sound TOO GOOD for just $140), but I am now also on the lookout for a deal on nad c320 or arcam a65, as the T-amp doesn't inspire confidence in its reliability.

i have another noobish question. i just did the math for the m22s - its 440+160 for stands + 300 or so for the subwoofer = 900 us dollars. Will I be better off bying the m50s or m60s instead and no stands and no subwoofer? Of course in that case I will be getting the nad c320 as the amp, but i am leaning towards that anyway. Please help me finalize my stereo setup! For ther record I am very happy with the sound of the m22s powered by the t-amp, but it looks like i am spending same money and could get a better speaker, but I want to stay with axiom as the speakers - like them way better then b&w and paradigms that my friends have.

That's a hard one to deceide; I would prefer a good set of floorstanding speakers myself. If I had to either give up the M80s and go with bookshelfs and a sub or keep the M80s without a sub I would pick the M80s by themselves.

If I was building a system over time I would buy the 60s for the $900 price rather than 22s and stands. You will have very nice stereo sound with good bass. Save you money and buy the sub as you are able.

For a stereo music system I would DEFINITELY go with 50s or 60s over M22s and sub, unless the room was quite small. As an M60 owner I will obviously suggest you try for the 60s

I will go strongly against the grain!!!! You have outstanding monitors. Bass from a seperate sub combined with your 22's will sound far better (in my opinion/experience) IF!!!!! you have properly set up active sub with appropriate equalization software. That doesn't mean you need super expensive DEQX or TACT hardware. Several subs come with equlizattion and set up microphones to be used with a laptop to accurately set up according to your room acoustics and seating position. I think rane has some ....Outlaw as well in fact they have now partnered with HSU and I beleive have subs which satisfy this purpose.

If you go to the outlaw website you can see the Velodyne bass management hardware software combo complete with set up microphone for $599 and the 8" 150 watt Outlaw/HSU sub is $299 sold together for $845. Ask the techy experts on this website (not me) monitors (highs / mids) belong away from the front wall , side walls and corners. Woofers tend to react very poorly with the room when placed in the same way ... they do best in the corners .. problem is time alignment .. thats th ebusiness of TACT and DEQX ... but the system above gets you a good way there at afraction of the cost.

In reply to:

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For ther record I am very happy with the sound of the m22s powered by the t-amp, but it looks like i am spending same money and could get a better speaker, but I want to stay with axiom as the speakers - like them way better then b&w and paradigms that my friends have.

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I think something should be clarified here. The M22s are no slouches. In going up to an M60 for example, you get more bass and louder. For the most part, it is the same drivers in sequentially larger enclosures. I know that the crossovers vary accordingly but I am sure that Axiom does not have inferior crossovers in the "lower end" speakers. Depending on how you qualify "better", IMO you are not necessarily getting better quality sound (provided you match the M22s with a nice sub).

A sub-sat setup gives you more flexibility when switching between stereo listening and home theater listening. If you do more stereo listening and you do not want to have the bulk of a subwoofer (a floor standing speaker typically does not take up much more room than a bookshelf on a stand) then a set of M60s would be ideal (or M50s if you like a more "laid back" sound).

I'll give you an example of one speaker setup. A lot of well constructed floor standing speakers have separate chambers for their woofers. IF such a speaker was bi-amped then you have the same speaker setup philosphy as a sub-sat system except that the woofer stays right under the midrange and tweeters (effectively the satellite portion of the speaker).

The floor standing speaker give you a nice neat package for all the drivers with less cabling versus an equivalent sub-sat setup.

The one factor that is never ruled out is the "coolness" factor. Big speakers look impressive but the reality is that most people do not need them. There are some people who have large space that do need speakers such as the M80s. Sometimes it is a matter of future-proofing your setup. If you are thinking of moving and you know your next listening room will have vaulted ceilings and open to other spaces, a larger speaker would likely be the best to go right off the bat (especially for those of us with WAFs to consider).

If you listen at moderate levels, the M22s will be perfect. I don't want to say that getting larger speakers would be a waste of money because there are certain intangibles for some people that simply can not be ruled out. As an extreme example, if only the act of sex were important then no man would care about what the woman looked like. In some cases the man simply turns out the lights. If you buy the M22s and just listen to the music but you care about hw the system looks, be happy with the sound turn out the lights and imagine huge br**sts, er, I mean speakers from the soundstage. It's a guy thing.

I would certainly recommend getting a pair of M60s, and if at all possible, a pair of M80s. The M80s are superb, and they do go down to 34Hz, so you can postpone buying a subwoofer for a long time! But you do need a good amp to drive those 4ohm M80s.

Any update from you, urbanachiever?

I disagree with the premise that putting a biamped tower with seperate enclosure for the subwoofer is the same as a seperate sub and m22 satellites for music listening. Lower frequencies react poorly with the room when they are place far from the front and side walls (the better location for your mid and high frequencies). Roy Allison (an audiophile good guy that Axin owners can appreciate) did great research as have others on corner woofer placement which proved a far better solution to the poor room reaction ot low frequencies when placed in a tower speaker set far out into the room. Of course, time alignment then becomes an issue (solved rather neatly by todays software/hardware technology now available for proper adjustment of corner placed subs and woofs). CAVEAT EMPTOR .... of course the greatest uncertainty of all comments (and magazine reviews for that matter) regarding which speaker sounds best is that most reccommendations are very hypothetical as one must assume the reader has similiar room dimensions (and importantly acoustics) to the one doing the reveiwing. The room is a HUGE!!!! issue. Some of us listen in small apartments surrounded by huge windows while others have huge listening rooms with cathedral ceilings with rugs drapes etc...