Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Are M60/80's overkill for HT?

I'm trying to decide between the M60's and the M22's. I use my
system exclusively for HT, never 2 channel. Please help me understand this.
If the lower frequencies are sent to the subwoofer, what advantage would the
M60's have over the M22's? I understand that the M60's have a lower frequency
response than the M22's, but if I'm sending bass below 80hz to the subwoofer anyway,
I'd never take advantage of their capability, right? Like I said, I never use my
system to play 2 channel sources. With that in mind, what advantages does the M60's
have that I would not get with the M22's?

I would not call them overkill at all. What is your room size? Everything down to 80hz is still very low, and the 60's will blow you out of the room with deep bass. Also, LFE below 80 hz are non directional, meaning you can't tell the direction from where the sound is coming from, you can only feel it in your chest or when you hair stands up.

Most people think what they are hearing is coming from the sub, but in fact it is coming from the woofers on the main speakers.

Sirquack, my room size is 14'x16'. If the M22's have a frequency response that's capable of producing the lower frequencies you refer to (just above cutover), what advantage do you get from using m60's?

I'm sure some of the 22 owners will jump in here as I've never owned them. The 60's have dual 6.5" woofers and the 22's have dual 5.25" woofers, so overall the 60's would give you better/tighter bass. However, the 22's are no slouch and have great reviews. I'm sure they would do fine for your room, especially if you throw in a sub for the real low LFE's. Also the 60's are rated at 37hz +- 3dB which is much lower than the 22's 60hz +_ 3dB's, so the 60's would be expected to do a little better in the bass category. For HT, I'm sure you would be fine. Also, the budget is better on the 22's, so you can spend more on a great sub.

The main thing is that the 60s will be able to play more loudly and still sound nice and clear. The M60s simply have about twice the driver area (2 x 6.5" plus 1 x 5.25") doing the work, plus the larger cabinet makes them flat down to below 80 Hz whereas the M22s are starting to roll off around 100 Hz.

Many people have also reported a "bigger" sound (whatever that means) from the lfoorstanders, possibly a function of the drivers being spread over a wider vertical distance but not sure. I noticed a significantly bigger, more open sound when going from M2s to M60s.

I agree with bridgman. And the same can be said for 60s to 80s.

For M22's you are going to want to set the crossover at 100Hz. I have them.

There is certainly a few decible dip if you would se the crossover at 80Hz. However, in HT I honestly think you would be much better off buying a better subwoofer rather than upgrading to the 60's.

One of the most impressive facets of a home theater is simply the power of the bass. Upgrading from the m22's to the m60's will really be negligable in a home theater unless your room is large. Even then, I would upgrade to the VP150 first before upgrading the mains to m60's.

Honestly, I always put my subwoofer in the front of the room, so I don't mind if the 80-100 Hz is somewhat directional. It will sound like those frequencies are coming from the front speakers anyways.

In reply to:

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For M22's you are going to want to set the crossover at 100Hz. I have them.

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Um, correction. Dan wants to set the crossover to 100hz.

Experiment and see what works best for you. Most people find 80hz is the best setting as far as mixing with the mains and keeping the bass low enough that it doesn't sound localized. But again, ymmv.

Well...looking at the M22's graph that is the best setting for them.

Localization really isn't that much of a problem. As I said, I have the sub right up in front.

The M22 graph does not take room loading into account, they are rated down to 60Hz so an 80Hz crossover would work just fine. It's all about what works for each persons application.

I agree Wid, I would prefer 80 over 100hz on the 22's, if I owned them, matched with a 500 would be killer.

danmagicman has a very good point, and since cman is talking about a "relatively" small(14x16)listening room, and may well wish to go with a VP100 and QS4s to go with M22s, then 100hz would be a good crossover point if the receiver he uses is capable of only one freq for all speakers.

That is; if those are the complement of speakers he goes with.

Just an observation
Rich.


Oops!...I just observed that that's the complement of speakers danmagicman has.....me bad

Still,...it makes sense!!

I agree about the 80 Hz. My M22tis are crossed @ 80 Hz with an SVS pci 20-39. My sub is located up front as well. To me this sounded better than crossing @ 100 Hz (or 60 Hz for that matter). The receiver is a Pioneer Elite 55Txi, so I'm pretty confident that it is doing its job correctly.

But as previously stated, it's a matter of personal preference. To the OP, try out several settings and see what sounds best to you.

Regards,
Rich

That's a fair point but the VP100 and QS4s still has usable output below the +/-3db point. That's not counting the sub when crossed over @ 80 will still be producing frequencies above that point.

CM, welcome. With room reinforcement in that size room(not much different from where I have my M22s)you can expect good bass down to about 50Hz without a sub, with significantly lower output, but still usable, at 40Hz. With a sub crossed at 80Hz you should have excellent results with the M22s, including all the loudness capacity that should be needed.

I have experimented with the crossover setting at 40Hz, 60Hz, and 80Hz. The overall audio experience is slightly different at each of these settings. Right now I am using 80Hz. This is the recommended setting for THX movies. Everything seems to work together best at this setting. You should try out different settings and see what works best for your room.

If M80's can go well to 20 Hz, why the crossover at 80 Hz?

Does the sound just sound...deeper if it comes from the sub? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Probably clearer more than deeper. M80s can make quite a bit of bass but at high volumes the woofers have to move quite a bit to generate that much bass, and by eye they seem to approach the point where the non-linearities from flapping out near the limits of the rubber surround has to be having an effect on the lower midrange frequencies.

If you cross over at 80 hz most of the "cone flapping bass" is handled by the sub, which (a) has a bigger driver and is better able to move the air, and (b) is not handling the important upper bass/lower midrange so that frequency range stays "clean".

It's all debateable, of course. You can also argue that the sub will hit ITS limits sooner if you cross over high, vs. crossing over low where it only has to carry a narrow frequency range and less energy. In fact, if you have a wussy sub relative to room size and desired SPL one trick IS to take the crossover frequency real low so it doesn't have to work so hard.

Dang John,

I wanted to say the same thing, but for some reason you always have a way with words, and make it easy for people like me to understand. U Da Man....

Well, now I understand. Thank you sir.

If the crossover is set at 80Hz for the M80 speakers, it reduces the strain on my Denon 3805 AVR. The EP600 with its 600 watt amp will handle all LFEs below 80Hz without breaking a sweat even at close to reference db levels.

Another issue is to do with placement. The best place for the speakers is not necessarily the best place for the lower frequencies. Speaker positioning is more to do with the mid - high frequencies. I also believe there are cancellation issues with LFE coming from more than one source.

So many things actually, that is why so many people recommend this.