Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater EP350 or SVS PB10-ISD

Hi all, I have a room of approx. 12' by 14', and a setup consisting of 4x m3ti's for fronts and surrounds, along with a vp-100 and a yamaha rx-v657 receiver. I am now trying to decide on a subwoofer, and I was previously told that I'd get more bang for the buck with an SVS as opposed to axiom for the lower end subs...my question is as follows:

the svs pb10-isd is £470 here in england. a bit more than i originally intended to spend, but i'm told that it puts the ep175 to shame...for £500 i could have the ep350...slightly less amplifier power than the SVS, but a 12-inch driver. Which is the best subwoofer between the two? i'm more inclined towards the ep350 as i'm told that it automatically powers up/down when my amplifier is switched on or off, along with the fact that i'd like a full axiom house. if i do however go with the axiom, i don't want to have sacrificed any performance. i'm fairly new to sound systems, however i'm learning fast. any help would be greatly appreciated. thanks.

I recently was doing some SVS research and came across this:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259890
(Sorry.. I don't know how to do the link properly)

Is there something these testers are missing or can that little sub really challenge the EP600?

Check out this thread

LINK

For those who don't want to wade through the long threads, there was a lot of debate about those tests, specifically whether the measurements were at all relevent to real world performance. The main point was that the testing approach Ilkka used focused on single notes which caused the DSP logic to kick in and take the output levels way down, resulting in an artificially low output. I'm guessing there is some hum protection code in there, but not sure.

The other concern was that the graphs were misleading, in the sense that they focused on distortion in frequency ranges below the enclosure's cutoff where actual sound output was very low. The discussions got very ugly and a number of threads were deleted by the moderators.

The PB10 is a really nice subwoofer but it would not be a substitute for an EP600 in a real world listening situation. Ilkka tended to ignore (and even bypass) the DSP circuitry which is the heart of the EP600, and he didn't like the resulting performance

After reading that review I would have to go with the PB-10 ISD. If it could make a respectable showing against the EP600, at only $429 I imagine an EP350 would'nt match up against it very well.

Just be aware that most people do not agree with the review. Ilkka means well and did try really hard to work around the DSP logic to get useful test results, but with the introduction of complex DSP programming the traditional "run some sweeps and crunch the results" sub testing doesn't really suffice any more.

It was quite inconsiderate for Ian to design a subwoofer that was so damn hard to measure

EDIT - peversely enough, with Ilkka's test regimen I expect the EP350 would have outperformed the 600 in his tests.

Yep.........we may never see the super center speaker becasue of this.

I am not into all the testing procedures. I usually skip to the "Conclusions" part of the review for the summary. I look for the opinions after listening to music and movies, that usually gives me a better idea in a test of speakers/subwoofer/equipment, than a bunch of graphs.

Too bad most people use subwoofers in a room, not a parking lot.

Maybe I should print it out and give it to my neighbors, they seem to enjoy listening to loud bass outside in their cars.

I guess nobody really answered your original question.

Between EP350 and PB10, I think you would find that the 350 plays a bit louder but the PB10 goes deeper. Despite the smaller driver, the PB10 cabinet is almost 50% bigger than the EP350 (6000 in3 vs. 4400 in3) which does help a bit.

For a living room system, there is a lot to be said for the nicer size and finish of the EP350. You may get more of what is often called "slam" (which seems to be more around the 30hz range) from the 350 but I haven't seen any good comparison tests.

The PB10's strength is that it goes several hz deeper into the low bass than the 350 before rolling off. Subwoofer buying is full of difficult tradeoffs ;(

>>After reading that review I would have to go with the PB-10 ISD.

>>I look for the opinions after listening to music and movies

That's the problem... Ilkka's review didn't HAVE any listening to music and movies, so it's probably not the review for you. That was the essence of the resulting pissing contests. Looking at Ilkka's measurements the PB10 outperformed the EP600... but in the listening tests we have seen so far a 500 edged ahead of an Ultra.

It used to be simple -- measurements and listening tests tended to support each other -- but not so simple any more.

I remember this ILKKA guy now, he is the one that CRAIGSUB used to play around with on that other forum. I don't go to the forums over there, people are kind of aggresive over there for my tastes.

I will audition an EP500 or EP600 sometime this year. If it is a clear step up from my PB12-Plus 2 I will keep it. If not it will go back to its homeland.

>>I will audition an EP500 or EP600 sometime this year. If it is a clear step up from my PB12-Plus 2 I will keep it. If not it will go back to its homeland.

Yep, that is the comparison everyone wants to see, including me

Although I am calling it an audition, I am pretty sure it will stay. I expect it to be a very high quality product for the price.

I should have the funds by May, if not a little sooner.

I have decided on EP500 mainly due to the price difference. If I went with the EP600 I would have to wait longer and would probably have to sell my SVS. If I did'nt already have a subwoofer that I have invested a fair amount in, I would definitely go for the EP600. The EP500/EP600 came out when I was shopping for a Subwoofer. At the time there werent really any reviews so I did'nt consider them. There were plenty for the SVS subs. I think I bought my sub in June 04.

I am hoping that with 2 subs the max SPL would equal an EP600 and go lower as well. With a little luck I will also get a more even sound as well. The only downside I can see is that I will have to get into the calibration side of things. Not really the kind of thing that appeals to me, but will be necessary to get the most out of my hard earned dollar.

Good for you Ronno, THAT is the way to test a subwoofer. I'm not sure what you would consider "a clear step up," but listening is the way to see if any subwoofer would provide it. I suspect the PB12-Plus 2 will play a little louder and go a little lower, but I think you'll find the EP500's frequency response to be smoother and more refined. For my tastes, it plays loud ENOUGH, and plays low ENOUGH. Only you can decide if that is ENOUGH for you. Good hunting.

Do I understand you correctly? Are you considering keeping both subs? Not a bad idea, if it is within your budget. If you are, you should seek out Jakeman, here on the forum. He uses one 600, two 500s, AND a PB Ultra. He has things set up so the Ultra handles the really low stuff, where it has the edge, and the Axioms handle things above a certain frequency (20Hz? 25Hz?, I'm not sure where he crosses them), where they really shine. Anyway, he would be able to give you some great ideas on how to set up two subwoofers.

I am looking for more slam in every explosion and more couch vibrating in general. I was really impressed with the SVS in the beginning but the wow factor has kind of worn off now. If I had the money I would go with something like the Velodyne 1812. They go for something like 7K or 8K .

The way that review was put together has more of the "extreme hobbiest" flair to it, that only cares about pure SPL, distortion, and frequency graphs - in a parking lot.

The fact of the matter is, any audiophile knows that a graph don't mean jack and your ears do. Personally, testing speakers in a parking lot and not in the environment they were meant to be in (an actual place with 4 walls, a floor, and a ceiling) these graphs can easily be filed in the "Exotic tests that mean next to nothing" folder. I don't even think they mentioned how the speakers sound. Isn't that what it's all about? Or are we going to buy speakers just to hook up a microphone and drool over the test results?

Usually teens say this to couples who are a little flirtatious, but I have to say this to the people who tested these subs. That is...

"Get a room."

FYI................. the picture is of the pole at the Axiom factory used for testing speakers outside...............amazing isn't it..........even Ian does this.

If you fellow the link below you will find more pictures and some text on a tour of the Axiom factory, you may find it intersting.



Axiom Factory

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The fact of the matter is, any audiophile knows that a graph don't mean jack and your ears do.

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Speaking in such platitudes is rarely a good idea. Graphs may not be the be-all-end-all of audio, but they certainly mean more than jack.

(no offense Ajax!)

In reply to:

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(no offense Ajax!)

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None taken, Peter. We both have a name that is often taken in vain. Though it's the name I've been called all my life, Jack is my nickname. At least I have the option of uisng my legal, given name, John. Oh hell. NEVERMIND!