Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Bad Recordings, or bad CDs???

Kind of a multiple part thread, so here goes...

I still don't have my speakers yet (custom M60s), but I expect with the recent price increase there was probably quite a jump in demand on the last couple weeks before the increase.

But, with my current setup, sometimes I hear "clicks" when listening to CDs. I have found myself doing more "critical" listening lately than casual listening when tweaking my setup. When I hear one, first thing that pops into my mind "crap, my avr is popping", or "maybe the fridgerator came on", etc. But when I rewind the song and listen again, there it is; same pop, in the same spot.

I hear almost everyone reguard Axiom speakers as "unforviging of poor recordings", but can't really find any specifics as to what that means. I guess I anticipate it meaning more "detailed" in the sense that a HD TV with its higher resolution will be more unforgiving of SD source material as compared to SD source material viewed on a SDTV.
In that reguard, I am a little nervous, as I have seen it more than once, someone spends big bucks on a fancy new HiDef TV, only to be severely dissapointed in the picture quality when viewing lesser than HD sources.

But, back to the reason for my post...Since I can't find an exact definition to how the Axiom speakers are unforgiving of bad source material, I am left to wonder, are these pops I am hearing what is meant, or is it just more along the lines of more detailed (more "resolution" if you will)? I am not audiophile, but have seen reference to being able to hear "hiss", whereas will lesser revealing speakers, you don't. This doesn't bother me AT ALL. I grew up with the cassette, so I am all too familiar with tape hiss, which was exaserbated by my tendacy to boost the high freqs. with EQ in days gone by. But my personal preference is to have a strong detailed high end, even if it reveals source limitations, that have a laid back high end which masks them.

And lastly, working in radio, I am all TOO familiar with how wildly different the levels and mix can be from one CD to another, but...

I am starting to wonder...Is there such a thing as a defective CD?

On those disc I hear "pops" in, its not my setup, as I tried in both my CD and DVD player, the car, etc, and I can always hear them, always in the same spot in the recording.

So I guess I am left wondering, are these "in the mix", or is the CD defective?

-Alan

Are the CDs copy protected? I've experienced clicking with these types of CDs. Not since I upgraded my CD player, but definitely on the old one.

I don't think so, but could be wrong.

Most of my CDs are of classic rock, and are several years old. But as I said, I doesn't matter if I listen to them in the DVD player (digital connection to AVR), CD player (analog connection to AVR), or completely different system (in the car, etc), they are there. Not every CD of mine, but quite a few for sure.

-Alan

Are these regular CD's that you've purchased in retail stores or through CD clubs? Or, are these copies you've made form originals? Does this happen to all of the CD's you have, your just certain CD's. I have some older CD's from the 80's that obviously were not recorded as good as some of my newer CD's. With those I do hear that it is not as clear, but I never hear popping.

Hi FirebirdTN,

SirQuack's question is pertinent. Speaking generally, it's rare to find a pressing defect in a commercial CD, but it does happen. Over 25 years of buying CDs and getting review copies that number in the thousands, I've encountered three or four. The defects do not cause "popping" sounds. The disc either skips, refuses to advance to any other track, or issues occasional "clicks" which are drop-outs that the CD player's redundancy or data correction cannot cover up.

Some very early CD players had very poor error correction for tracking damaged or scratched CDs and it did not correlate with CD player price. But if you are hearing these "pops" in all your players from the same disc, I suspect it may be a defect or damage. The upper label area is much more sensitive to any scratch than the actual playing (underside) surface of a CD.

Tape hiss from early analog recordings may vary in audibility depending on the mastering process and whether or not various digital noise-reduction programs were invoked during the remastering. Some mastering engineers do not use these for fear of removing high-frequency nuances--the sustained ring of a brushed cymbal, for example.

It really varies with every recording. Axiom speakers are very linear through the midrange and treble, where our hearing is especially acute, so if there is analog tape hiss present from an old Ray Charles track (I cite this because I was just listening to some older stuff and noted the tape hiss) then you'll hear it.

On the other hand, some transfers to CD of old master tapes are done extremely well and are remarkably noise-free. But there are many kinds of analog distortion that are readily audible if you choose to focus on them rather than on the music. To cite two, I can easily hear flutter on early piano recordings that resulted from the analog tape machines of the era, and tape-modulation distortion during loud passages (it's a kind of background "fuzz" that rides up and down with transient musical peaks). And there is no digital way of removing these types of distortion in remastered CDs.

Regards,

Regular audio CDs purchased in retail stores. No copys.

They are old (several YEARS old). Doesn't happen to all audio CDs I have, but quite a few.

I remember my wife bought an Elton John "best of" compliation (can't remember the exact title), but it was white, and had three CDs, and that was the very first time I noticed it. At the time, I happend to notice it in the car. Put it on the system in the house, and sure enough....it was there. This was a brand new CD, but most of what I am hearing them on are in the neighborhood of 5-7 years old, maybe more.

-Alan

I have this cd, Elton John Greatest Hits 1970 to 2002 (a white folder with 2 cds) and I hear no defects what so ever.

To add to this....Since its a rarity to have a defective pressed CD, I wonder if pressed CDs can suffer from "CD Rot"?

I have experienced CD Rot first hand with SEVERAL of my CDRs, but wondering if commercial CDs can suffer from it as well...

Hmmmmm.....when I get home tonight I will rip a very small portion of a song, and put it in my FTP server at home and see what you guys think.

-Alan

WID- The one my wife bought had THREE discs...

Ditto - just fired it up over the weekend, actually.

Firebird,

As to CD rot, no, not with commercial CDs. CD-R and CD-RWs use quite different technical schemes to encode the discs and may be subject to deterioration with exposure to sunlight, temperature extremes, etc.

My early CDs go back to 1982-83, and they play perfectly. How scratched are your discs? Light scratches that may cause some players to hiccup can be removed with a liquid auto wax, buffed across the disc (not in circles).

Regards,

Oh, didn't see you there. The CD case has 2 pegged CDs plus a bonus disc in a separate sleeve.

In reply to:

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The upper label area is much more sensitive to any scratch than the actual playing (underside) surface of a CD.

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I've heard this before and had until now dismissed it as urban legend. Why is it that scratching the upper surface of a cd can cause more problems than scratching the actual data side? Is it also the same for DVDs?

What was the bonus cd, I seem to have misplaced it.

In reply to:

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I've heard this before and had until now dismissed it as urban legend. Why is it that scratching the upper surface of a cd can cause more problems than scratching the actual data side? Is it also the same for DVDs?

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There's really just a layer of ink between the top and the data... the bottom side has a thick (acrylic polycarbonate?) layer. If you tip a CD to the light and look through the bottom towards an edge, you can see a lot of material below the data layer and very little from the top.

Neither place is preferable for a scratch... through the bottom can scatter laser light trying to read the pits, from the top can actually damage the data layer.

Bren R.

The upper side of the CD is aluminum, where the pits are actually located. On a DVD, there's a plastic layer above that.

It seems there were to different releases of this disc, one with a bonus cd and one without.

Sounds like a strange issue. I was going to suggest a faulty player as a common denominator, but then you mentioned that you have heard the same click/pop between the car and home? Even if something has scratched many of your discs (like a faulty CD disc cleaner or something), I would suspect different players would handle the scratches differently. Doesn't seem to make any sense to me? Sorry.

You guys are gonna make me fess up! Okay, alot of my CDs are not in the best condition in the world, but...

If I have a scratched CD, I expect things like that. But I am talking on perfect CDs with no visible scratches on them.

Matter of fact my example of the Elton John above when I first noticed it was a case of "just bought it at the store, unwrapped it in the car, stuck it in the player" situation.

When I get home I will place a small sample in my server at home and see if you guys hear what I am talking about.

-Alan

I think that's right. IIRC, I got mine at Best Buy, which may have had a store exclusive. When I get home, I'll look to see what is on the extra disc. Nothing too amazing, 'cause it doesn't get much play.

Did you say then that you can hear the same pop/click between different systems/players (home, car, a friends?). Then it would have to be the discs themselves.

It has to be an underground/bootleg store. If the noise is happening on various CD players in your home and car, it HAS to be the media. Scratches are not the only thing that can effect playback, smudges and fingerprints may also be the culprit.

Okay....found an example.

It is from the Eagles "Hotel California" CD, on the asylum label.

It is track 9 "The Last Resort".

I have placed a small portion of this track in my webserver here at the house.

I don't know all the lyrics, but listen closely affter the word "Rhode Island" and see what you think.

I pulled the track from the CD with my Plextor drive. I left it in .wav format to keep the audio as untouched as I could.

CD condition is good; not mint, but nothing to write home about.

File size is about 6megs.

It is here:

http://warez.msmcs.net/MyHost/clicks.wav

-Alan

I hear some clicks when he says "old world" after "Rhode Island". If you hear the clicks / pops from more than one player, it seems to me that it is either on the recording, or a defect from an unseen blemish / scratch on your cd. Perhaps someone else has their own copy to verify this.

I am listening to it on some cheap computer speakers, yes I can hear something, but it is very minor, at least with these speakers.

During recordings, especially live performances, your going to hear some artifacts picked up by the recording process. In addition, as mentioned above the condition of the CD's (scratches, smudges, fingerprints, etc.) can have an effect.

I can't figure if your just to picky, , or what, but the main thing you've said is that the noises your hearing can be replicated on various CD, DVD, and car players. So whether it is a flaw in the recording or scratches, it is the CD itself.

Another thing you'll notice with the Axiom's, since they are so detailed and efficient, is that you'll hear guitar strings plucked, percussion brushes scratching the drums, etc...

Not sure what else to add.....anybody else...

Just looked at it, took a close look at the waveform and found two anomalies (at roughly 17.640 and 17.967 s) between the words "old" and "world" in "...where the old world shadows hang..."

They sound and look just like jitter errors. Since they happen on all the players you tried - congratulations - with your Axiom speakers, you can now hear CD scratches.

I've got a few similar sounds on my oldest CDs (most specifically from the Pogues CD (IISFFGWG) I bought in 1987)... I'm anal about their care, but occasionally you smear or scratch one.

If this is a brand new CD, chances are there was a very small flaw in the original master (if it appears on all CDs of the same run) or just in the pressing of YOUR disc (if it only appears on yours). Large runs are done with metal masters (think Madonna) while small runs are done with glass masters usually (think that band selling them out of the back of their Pinto) so problems do occur.

It may be annoying to you, but let's face it... that's a lot less annoying than the pop and clicks of damaged vinyl, the slow loss of signal to noise ratio of cassettes and even data held on hard drives can eventually develop occasional errors.

Bren R.

p.s. I'm going to go against Alan's advice on polishing CDs unless it's a one time thing to just get a single copy of an irreplaceable master. Most of the polishing compounds will either fill scratches or cut and polish them out for short periods of time. Almost all of these are similar to automotive paint compounds and are made up of waxes and solvents mixed with diatomaceous (sp!?!) earth or a crystalline substance like tripoli. What do these do long term to CDs? Probably the same thing as they do to motorcycle visors - they fog and make the plastic gooey or brittle. Two of my buddies used to work for PPG, does it show?

LOL; okay maybe I'm being nitpicky!

Seriously, I didn't say that it bothers me, its just something I noticed rather recently, and this isn't the only disc I have that has little clicks or pops like that.

As far as with detailed speakers being able to hear guitar plucks and things like that, I can only think that is a good thing, and it does sound as if the additional "detail" they bring out is synonomous with the higher "resolution" a HDTV brings.

All in all, I look forward to getting my speakers, and am not put off by these anomolies. Its just something I noticed and I was curious as if they were in the mix, or if I was one of the few unlucky folks who got a bad disc. I will really only know if someone has this exact CD, so if you do, please chime in.

This particular disk is in good (not great) shape. Maybe some VERY light scuffing from normal wear and tear (being placed in the tray and back out). Its not flawless, but it doesn't have any real scratches. I always thought they error correction could take care of minor blemishes?

Now, I do have some CDs in bad shape from being dropped or whatever, and those, I hear the "tick tick tick" as the disk spins around and passes the scratch. That sound, I am all too familiar with, and is DIRECTLY related to the physical condition of the disc.

But again, back to that Elton John CD; that was a BRAND NEW just opened disc and had similar anomolies.

-Alan

In reply to:

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Now, I do have some CDs in bad shape from being dropped or whatever, and those, I hear the "tick tick tick" as the disk spins around and passes the scratch. That sound, I am all too familiar with, and is DIRECTLY related to the physical condition of the disc.

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You shouldn't be hearing this, the disc and the pickup lens should NEVER come in contact with each other. If your player was damaged (maybe from a severely damaged disc or otherwise), it may now be causing damage to every CD you play in it. If the lens is touching the spinning disc, it could be creating very minor scratches in the same uniform ring of the disc that you aren't seeing like common scratches that are linear. I don't know that this is the case, but if it is you will want to find the cause before any more damage is done to your collection.

I suspect this just because of wide variety of CDs you are experiencing this with and in multiple players. These discs are not coming to you this way, something you have is affecting them. In my opinion.

In reply to:

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You shouldn't be hearing this, the disc and the pickup lens should NEVER come in contact with each other. If your player was damaged (maybe from a severely damaged disc or otherwise), it may now be causing damage to every CD you play in it.

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I don't think he means a physical contact-type tick, but the sound of the dropout being misread.

Bren R.

BrenR is correct; that particular noise is because of deep scratches as the scratch passes the pickup.

But these poor quality CDs aren't what this thread was about, but the GOOD to MINT quality CDs I have with slight audible imperfections.

-Alan

In reply to:

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But again, back to that Elton John CD; that was a BRAND NEW just opened disc and had similar anomolies.

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Where on this disc do you hear the imperfections?

Belated thanks to Ken & Bren for answering my question! Mucho gracious.

Realized when I looked back on what I was being thanked for that I may have misspoken. There IS a thin PC (polycarbonate) layer above the aluminum data layer on a CD as well, but nothing like the 1mm thick layer underneath. It's tenths of a millimeter thick.

Bren R.

I'm wondering if anyone's come across this?

I pulled out one of my all time favourite discs (which I hadn't listened to in a few years since I have it on the PC) and it refused to play.

I thought maybe the playing surface was smudged so I gave a clean. Nothing. Oh, I thought, maybe there is a scratch. Nope.

I finally held it up to the light to look for flaws and then it dawned on me. I could read the label through the disc. Both the front and back poly surfaces were intact, but the ?aluminum? layer in the centre looks like it had crumbled.

It had the appearance of a dried mud puddle where the cracks spread throughout the surface.

I was shocked. I've never had to replace a CD before.

Of course, all the usual questions

- this a pressed or burned CD?
- left in heat (near radiator, heat vent in car in summer) or cold? (car in winter)
- left out in sunlight?

Bren R.

Pressed

It has spent time in the car in both summer and winter, although no more than any other disc I have and I haven't seen this anywhere else

In addition to the poly, is there a UV or other type of protective coating?

I don't believe they UV coat CDs themselves. Often the tray card/liner booklet (and a lot of other packages) are UV coated, that's normally to add to colour depth in 4 colour applications.

I could be wrong, but I've never had a CD dupe come back UV coated.

Bren R.

Go with SACD, DVDA or Vinyl, you'll be happy you did.