Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Ceiling Speakers with Similar Timbre?

Just broke ground on my new house yesterday, and I'm putting together a new 5.1 home theater for my future living room. The viewing area is essentially 19ft wide and 20ft deep, with 12ft ceilings. The room will be carpeted, with a full-height stone fireplace on one of the side walls.

I plan on picking up the Denon-3806 for my receiver, and the new Panasonic 58" plasma when it comes out this summer. At this point, I'm leaning toward a VP150 center, a pair of M22ti fronts, and a Hsu sub (the EP500 or 600 would be nice, but I'm working with a $10k budget for the entire home theater). Unfortunately, the wife insists that the surrounds be in-ceiling speakers.

Locally, I can buy either B&W, Klipsch, or Speakercraft in-ceiling speakers. Which of these brands would likely be the best match with the Axioms in the front of the room?

Personally, I'm not a big fan of in-ceiling speakers, they just can't give you the same experience as it was intended. Also, not sure your going to find another mfg's. in-ceiling speaker with the same tonel/timber characteristics. You'll still get sound, but it won't be as good as what the Q-series would give you.

In reality, the left/right surrounds should be to the left/right of the listeners. Have you considered wall mounting some Q's off to either side, you can get a color that looks nice with your trim?

Another option might be the architecture series in-wall series from Axiom. Although they arent totally flat to the wall/ceiling, they are much lower profile than the other speakers in the Axiom lineup..

It was important to me that all my speakers matched in quality and color.

good luck.

I'm not a big fan of the in-ceilings, either. I'm just lucky that I was able to talk her out of the 100% in-ceiling speaker solution she was so insistent on. If I *HAD* to have one place where the speakers were in-ceiling, I could most likely tolerate the surrounds being up there.

I guess I'm curious which manufacturer's sound will come "closest" to the Axioms, knowing that it won't be a perfect match. It appears from my research that some people view both the Axioms & Klipsch as being a bit "bright"-sounding, so I was thinking that the Klipsch might be my best bet.

Millerbrad, since you are confined to in ceiling speakers, Imho whatever brand you choose I think you will be fine, the critical part is matching your front and your center speakers, ideally you want to have all your speakers timber matched but that is not always possible, I use different surrounds and am very happy with the results.
Myself and most the owners of Axioms on this board do not consider them bright, so go with the speakers you and your wife like.

The problem with some Klipsch speakers to me is the horn tweeter they use on some models. It does give you a harsh/bright experience for some types of music. I know a lot of AVS'rs call Axiom's bright/harsh as well, this simply is not true.

Are you sure you couldn't get some white QS4's or QS8's suspended from the ceiling? It would blend in as much as possible with the ceiling.

Just a thought. Is the room strictly a TV room or also a living/family room place?

Hi millerbrad,

Take your wife to a movie in a big cinema. Ask her to look at the ceiling before the lights dim. NO ceiling speakers, right?

The reason cinemas don't use them is that they don't work very well, and all movies are mixed with surrounds on each side wall, which is where you'll see the surrounds in cinemas and mixing studios.

Our spatial hearing is cued to lateral-arriving and front-arriving sounds, not to overhead sounds or sound directly from behind the head.

As was pointed out in this thread, think of suspending QS8s to each side of your listening area.

Regards,

At first my wife was a little hesitant about me hanging speakers on the wall or ceiling. In reality, she had less of a problem about that, then she did my M60's, EP500, and VP150 setting below our 10ft wide theater screen. Once we found a finish that matched our trimwork, she actually thinks they all look pretty cool now..

I know it is a tuff sell, but if you can put them near the side walls somewhere, next to curtains or whatever they will be fine. The Q series are very forgiving on placement. Some of use have even set them on bookshelves and you don't even realize them when you walk in the room.

Here are a few pics

http://www.axiomaudio.com/wallofame.html

I placed my 8s next the window curtains. The only thing I did wrong was the speaker color. If I had picked eggshell white (just for the surrounds), .they would have blended in nicely.

Yup, I bet having them in eggshell white would make them very unnoticable, and if they are noticed, they would look very nice up against the wall matching in white.

I guess I could ebay mine and order new ones "just" to please my bride.

If you absolutely had to come close, I would recommend the Monitor Audio in CP in-ceiling speaker. Perhaps the price might dissuade her. Locally they are about $1300.00 CDN for a pair.

Unfortunately, I have an especially difficult task convincing the wife that I need a good sound system. She'll never quite have the same appreciation for a good home theater that I do, since she's been deaf in one ear since age 12. Regardless, I've managed to upgrade the M22's to a pair of M60s in our buying plans.

Good idea about the eggshell white Qs on the ceiling. That just might fly. They shouldn't be too noticable way up on the 12-ft ceiling.

It's an uphill battle, but I'm getting there. Next task: convincing her that the sub has absolutely no business being hidden on a bookshelf cabinet. It's been a long road from "just get those nice little Bose speakers" to where I am now...

Keep fighting the good fight.

Keep your chin up, and remember that marriage is a two way street and all about compromise.

My wife was pretty adamant about a lot of things regarding my HT setup, but after having plenty of discussions we were able to compromise. Did I get everything I wanted? No, but it's pretty close and it is a heckuva lot better than what she originally wanted.

I will say that getting her nice jewelry is always helpful as well.

I have no problem with compromise, but on principle, I refuse to use jewelry as a bargaining chip. Maybe I'm making thisgs hard on myself, because my wife wants a kayak before I spend another cent on the HT, and jewelry is much easier to store.

Well since Ray does not find his way to the boards as much anymore ill be the one to offer the advice he usually delivers. Sell the wife. at least i think it is Ray Maybe not anyway the advice still works. lol

Thanks for the advice, everyone...

FYI, below are the plans for the room in question. It's not a dedicated home theater, per se, therefore the aforementioned problems with WAF. But our living room is mostly used for TV watching, even now. This room will be carpeted. The TV and front speakers are on the left-side wall in the drawing. Seating will be along the north wall (by the window) and the east wall (12'-7" wall on the right). The opening on the bottom wall leads to a 7'x14' hardwood-floor entryway. The opening on the lower-right leads to a 10'x'6' ceramic-tile-floored area.

Yes, the speakers will be housed in a cabinet; and, yes, I realize that this is not the optimal setup. Luckily, this is one place where WAF worked in my favor (upgrading from M22 to M60), because she wanted the speakers to be about the same height as the TV if they were going to be in the same cabinet. Are there any samples or suggestions that I should follow to make the best of my situation (aside from those already in the Axiom Family gallery).

The carpenter we'll be using is flat-out amazing. He can work with pretty much any specs we give him -- or he can come up with the design on his own. We'll likely be working with birch, although we haven't decided on the finish (Axiom doesn't seem to offer a birch finish, so I may just go with Black Oak speakers).

I love blueprints.

I have only a couple suggestions.

First, if you have not already done so, peruse the Axiom Custom Finish Shop and Custom Wood Studio. I can't believe there isn't something in there that wouldn't please your wife.

Second, that subwoofer thing has me worried. I think you need to budget enough money to ensure getting a high-quality finish on your sub (whether it be Axiom, Hsu or SVS) so that you can have it out in the room, serving as an end table. That's a big room; I'd get at least a mid-level sub rather than anything smaller.

Finally, I don't have a good vision about how the plasma and the speakers will be put together in your custom built-in. If it were me (I wish) I'd be looking for some kind of wall mount for the TV - perhaps with a telescoping action - so that it doesn't end up being at the back end of a cabinet box (otherwise, those people sitting on the side could have a problem with sightlines). If you can get a dark, matte finish directly behind the TV, that would be good (I know I'm dreaming...). If your carpenter could rig up some sliding shelves for the speakers to sit on, perhaps you could pull them out of the "cabinet" for critical listening and slide them back in for times when viewers care a bit less. I'll bet you could tame most of the cabinet effects that way.

You should definitely call Axiom about the finishes; I understand they will send you samples for a small fee which is then applied to your purchase.

I think the M60's are great - I really like mine. However, given that you will continue to have a dedicated two channel system in another room, I'd get the M22 and a better sub in this room rather than the M60 and a less-capable sub. Blasphemy, I know.

I agree with Tom. A very good setup that should lend itself to the WAF. My wife originally wanted inwalls (completely flush) but I just couldn't bring myself to sacrifice the audio quality for aesthetics. If you get a speaker with a beautiful wood finish, it is more like a piece of furniture which tends to be pleasing to wives (unlike the typical black where they do tend to stand out).

I was hoping to toe-out the ledge that the TV and speakers would sit on, so that they could be as far forward in the cabinet as possible. I'm going the pedestal-route on the TV to offer flexibility in TV trims if I ever need to replace the plasma. That, and I kind of like the pedestal.

The diagram below is of the smaller 50" TV model, but I would think that the 58" pedestal wouldn't be drastically different in dimensions. Worst case, the screen is about 6" from the front of the cabinet.



Also, I piddled around with to-scale cabinet designs (using MS Word of all programs).



Mostly, I wanted to see how the components scaled out on the 12ft wall and against each other. Neither the wife or myself or particularly happy with how it looks, so I think I'd rather give the carpenter some rules to follow, and see what he comes up with. And yes, that's the sub on the bottom-center <shudder>. Still working on fixing that.

I was thinking something along the lines of the following:
* M60s near the outside corners, to come close to Dolby's 5.1 layout recommendations
* Keep it symmetric, if at all possible

As far as cutouts for speakers, I'm curious about optimal deadspace on each side (if I couldn't follow tom's slide-out design). Is it better to leave alot of space, or a little? Preferably, I'd like to just leave it wide open at the TV-Speaker level from wall-to-wall. In my head, that would eliminate alot of the cabinet-effects. But then I need to put the electronic components somewhere.

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I agree with Tom. A very good setup that should lend itself to the WAF. My wife originally wanted inwalls (completely flush) but I just couldn't bring myself to sacrifice the audio quality for aesthetics. If you get a speaker with a beautiful wood finish, it is more like a piece of furniture which tends to be pleasing to wives (unlike the typical black where they do tend to stand out).

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Sounds reasonable. It's quite possible that one of the maple finishes would match reasonably well.

Does Axiom provide samples for their handful of standard finishes? I can only seem to find ordering info on the custom ones ($10 vinyl / $25 wood).

Hey Brad!

Well, that's worth 1,000 words, at least.

Yes, I believe Axiom will send you samples of standard finishes also. You might be pleasantly surprised by how good they look, especially the Mansfield Beech. Give them a call. Great people.

I think you may be surprised how large the M60's are. Putting them on a shelf that high might make them seem a bit overwhelming. Perhaps more importantly, they are quite DEEP, and require at least a token amount of clearance for the ports on the back of the speaker. I don't know the depth of that shelf, but you might want to look into that dimension. Again, the M22's might end up being a better choice (use a good bookshelf speaker instead of setting a floorstander on a bookshelf) It would also be much easier - because of the weight - to engineer the sliding mount concept.

Dude, seriously, you've got to get the sub out of the cabinet. I am a big Axiom fan, but the one thing that has always bothered me is that the subs are front-firing. From an aesthetic (and kid and pet protection standpoint) I have quite enough grill cloth in my life, thank you very much. The wood finishes on the SVS and Hsu models make them look like just another lovely wood cube in your space. Flexibility in placement is critical to getting good sub performance, and it's not something that is easily predicted by room dimensions. A few inches either way can make all the difference.

Finally, I do not think that having the speakers as far to the edge as possible is a good thing. You will dramatically increase the amount of early reflections you get from the side walls and muddy the soundstage appreciably.

Nice piddling, btw.

I don't fully understand your vision for the equipment and how this all lays out dimensionally. Is it reasonable to suggest that you put an equipment-rack width space to the outside of the speakers on each side?

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I think you may be surprised how large the M60's are. Putting them on a shelf that high might make them seem a bit overwhelming. Perhaps more importantly, they are quite DEEP, and require at least a token amount of clearance for the ports on the back of the speaker. I don't know the depth of that shelf, but you might want to look into that dimension. Again, the M22's might end up being a better choice (use a good bookshelf speaker instead of setting a floorstander on a bookshelf) It would also be much easier - because of the weight - to engineer the sliding mount concept.

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The "nook" where this will all be built is about 4ft deep, so I've got a fair amount of depth to work with. I wasn't too much against elevating the M60s, because I had read at least one reviewer who thought that the soundfield seemed a bit low to the ground. I'm also strongly considering having the cabinet actually terminate after the AV shelving on either side. Then I could put the towers and sub on the floor next to the cabinet.

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Dude, seriously, you've got to get the sub out of the cabinet.

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I know, I know... I think I've got her convinced to at least install a subwoofer jack in that northeast corner of the room -- so I'm getting there. That spot is just begging to be the home for a big, fat sub. Apparently, Dr. Hsu agrees. He recommended their VTF-3 in that spot. I'm not sure how tweaked I am about putzing with foam plugs and electronics behind the sub whenever I switch between music and movies, so I'm actually leaning a bit more toward the STF-3.

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From an aesthetic (and kid and pet protection standpoint) I have quite enough grill cloth in my life, thank you very much.

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Agreed. I already have one dog-chewed grill cloth on the el-cheapo dorm speakers in my current living room. Yet another reason for me to not be completely opposed to elevating the fronts (and a reason for me to favor Hsu/SVS for my sub).

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Is it reasonable to suggest that you put an equipment-rack width space to the outside of the speakers on each side?

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Should I expect any other problems with the sound field if I do this? I've been trying to follow the Dolby recommendations to a tea. As it is, I'm already short on the recommended 44-degrees of separation between my fronts.

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I wasn't too much against elevating the M60s, because I had read at least one reviewer who thought that the soundfield seemed a bit low to the ground.

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I wouldn't pay too much attention to that reviewer's comment. Speakers can't really give you "tall sound" without being tall themselves. The highly-desirable "wide soundstage" is possible because there are two speakers in stereo, separated by a good width. The floor and ceiling, and how the speakers are positioned in the room, are what contribute to the "audio illusion" of speakers sounding taller than they actually are.

Going back to my original question, I got a PM from someone offering to sell a pair of Paradigm in-wall/in-ceilings. I read a post from Alan today where he mentioned a close tonal match between the M3's and Paradigm Studio 20's (Here to be exact.)

Still waiting on more specifics on the Paradigms I've been offered, but would you say that it's a good generalization that the high-end Paradigms sound similar to Axioms?

EDIT: I meant that I'd been offered Paradigm in-wall/in-ceilings.. not Axioms. D'oh...

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The "nook" where this will all be built is about 4ft deep, so I've got a fair amount of depth to work with. I wasn't too much against elevating the M60s

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Board regulars (and general audio savants) spiffnme and Ajax both reported enjoying the effects of elevating their M60's. I don't think it would be sonically problematic in any way; I was more concerned about the aesthetics in this instance. It's good that you've got plenty of depth, though.

Could you put the equipment in the "lower" cabinets under the TV so that you could leave the "shelf" part more open?

The VTF-3 comes in nicer finishes than the STF-3, which might help you I seriously doubt that there are many people futzing with the plugs; I think most people just dial in the sub for their primary use and leave it at that. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, because I don't listen to a lot of music with extremely low notes. That is, if I set up the sub in maximum extension mode, I'll bet I'd have enough SPL to satisfy me, it would go as low as possible for movies, and my music listening would probably never demand either a higher SPL or greater extension. YMMV. I'm not a fiddler.

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Should I expect any other problems with the sound field if I do this? I've been trying to follow the Dolby recommendations to a tea. As it is, I'm already short on the recommended 44-degrees of separation between my fronts.

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Okay, based on my experience, knowledge and conjecture about your situation, my *opinion* is that you have far more to fear from the boundary effects of having the speakers in a cabinet AND close to the wall than you do from having them - potentially - closer together than you might like considering the fairly long distance to the sweet spot. If it was me, I'd try really hard to get the mains a couple feet away from the corners.

Besides the distance, the other thing that struck me about that back listening position all the (long) way across the room is that it is basically against the back wall. Having a wall directly behind the listening position is suboptimal, but that's life.

Overall point being, the Dolby stuff is all well and good if you listen in a lab. For the rest of us, the Room and the other realities of life tend to require a few compromises here and there. You'll still be thrilled. Really.

I haven't personally heard the Paradigms, but MANY posters here have come the same assessment.

Axiom spent a LOT of time engineering the in-wall speakers to be sonically indestinguishable from their boxy counterparts. If I had an application that demanded that form factor, I would not hesitate to buy them.

I still think, however, that wall or ceiling mounting QS8's would be much better for your surrounds in that room, given the seating arrangement.

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Could you put the equipment in the "lower" cabinets under the TV so that you could leave the "shelf" part more open?

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Potentially. I'd have to get on my knees every time I changed the DVD, but I'm not sure how much of an issue that really is to me. Another option to think about, I guess.

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The VTF-3 comes in nicer finishes than the STF-3

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Yeah, I noticed that shortly after I made that post. So, yeah.. I guess I'll probably go with a VTF after all. Now, if they'd actually have those Maples in stock. (I wonder what kind of waiting list they have going? That's probably best asked at the Hsu forums.).

I'd be more interested in SVS if you didn't apparently have to buy such expensive models before you get a choice of finishes. Axiom subs would be a no-brainer if it weren't for them being front-firing (although I'm not sure how well the 350 - more along the price I'd like to pay - stands up against similarly-priced competition).

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If it was me, I'd try really hard to get the mains a couple feet away from the corners.

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Thanks. I'll take that into consideration.

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Having a wall directly behind the listening position is suboptimal, but that's life.

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Yeah. Like my wife, I've never been a big fan of Great Rooms and the "furniture islands" that go along with them, which is why we went with furniture on the wall. Give and take, I guess.

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...the Room and the other realities of life tend to require a few compromises here and there. You'll still be thrilled. Really.

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Versus the 27" Magnavox and $200 Zenith mini-stereo I'm using now? Yeah, you're probably right...

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I'm not sure how tweaked I am about putzing with foam plugs and electronics behind the sub whenever I switch between music and movies, so I'm actually leaning a bit more toward the STF-3.

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You won't have to change anything with the VTF-3 going between music and movies, just leave it set at the lower extension. The other mode is if you only want to play extremely loud music without distortion.

More fiddling...



Unfortunately, speaker separation went from 40 degrees to 26 degrees (Yeah, I just can't drop the Dolby stuff). At least the speakers are somewhat less enclosed.

But, best of all, the sub is in the back corner of the room (Boo-yeah! I win!)

Oh, and some components are slapped in the pic mostly for scaling purposes.

As usual, my cabinet designs never pass the wife test, so I'll chalk this up as something to suggest to the carpenter.

Yay for you!

I think that's the ticket.

Aesthetically, unless you're going to run two center channels at some point (one above and one below the screen), I'd be tempted to just make the lower cabinets consistent all the way across.

But I think your latest design (and the sub positioning accommodation) provides much improved acoustic possibilities, in addition to future flexibility. Have you considered the Mansfield Beech with tan grilles? I think that combination would look very elegant, and help the speakers to be less imposing. Just a thought.

Maybe some nice pieces of art glass between the mains and the TV cabinet?

Are you going to mount an IR receiver/repeater somewhere? How about cooling for the components in the cabinet?

Man, you've got me hungry for pictures of this thing when it gets done. It's going to be fantastic.

I think that is definitely a more functional design. Based on Dennis's center channel placement in his custom cabinet (with ample space around) this similar design should work fairly well. Good luck with the WAF, er, I mean wife.

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Aesthetically, unless you're going to run two center channels at some point (one above and one below the screen), I'd be tempted to just make the lower cabinets consistent all the way across.

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I played around with it both ways. I'd have to say that I agree with you.

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Have you considered the Mansfield Beech with tan grilles?

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Oddly enough, black was my wife's choice. But, I still haven't ruled the Mansfield Beech out. I don't think we can make a final decision until we get some samples of our birch trim with our preferred stain. But, it just might match. I'd say it's definitely the closest of the standard finishes.

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Are you going to mount an IR receiver/repeater somewhere?

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That was my plan. I still haven't gotten around to doing much research on them yet...

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How about cooling for the components in the cabinet?

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That's actually something I was wondering about, especially since a home theater PC is in my eventual plans. I had considered that cutout below the TV to be a possible home of the PC, so I wouldn't run into as much trouble with cooling it.

Alternatively, I was considering a "chimney" type cooling system for the components. For the right cabinet, I'd have an intake vent on the lower-left wall of the cabinet. Each shelf would actually have a few inches of open space on the back, which would allow warm air to rise, and give me a place to route cables. Then, I'd have another vent on top of the cabinet for the warm air to escape.

Like this:



I'm not sure if I'll need a fan to draw out the heat, or just assume that since heat rises, I'm OK.

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Based on Dennis's center channel placement in his custom cabinet (with ample space around) this similar design should work fairly well.

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That reminds me... how much space should I be targeting for around the center?

Personally I'd like to see at least 12" of clearance.

If you provide vents in the cabinet, that should be enough if sized adequately. As guidance for size, you can use the total free area of the electronics' vents. Anything much smaller and you will need to go with a fan assist. This also makes the assumption that your front panel door is fairly tight. You will get some air leakage through it to add to the natural ventilation and give some flexibility on vent size..

Went to my local stereo store to audition a pair of the Paradigm in-ceilings (AMS-300) that I'd been offered. Pretty decent speakers at a great price, but wifey wants round grills to match her can-lighting.

After shaking the salesman ("You're buying speakers off the Internet? Why would you do something stupid like that?") I went to look at the AV receivers, and noticed the Denon 2807 for $899.

After looking around here, on Audioholics, and AVS, I'm wondering if there's really any reason for me to get the 3806 over the 2807?

How much were the Paradigm AMS-300s at the dealer? Just curious.

If I recall correctly, they were going for $475 for the pair (the great price was yours.. not the dealer's).

Not a whole lot to report so far, but the builder is still making good progress. The future home of my home theater is on the far-left in this photo.



I'll be meeting with the electrician in the next couple weeks. I'm having him install subwoofer jacks in both of the back corners of the room. Still negotiating with the wife on the exact cabinet setup, so we'll see how that works.

Until then, I'll keep stalking the forums...

Geez, those walls don't look very sturdy if they need all those supports. And won't those seriosly intrude on the space of your room? What was the architect thinking?

I told the builder to forego nails, and just use duct tape. Gotta keep my priorities straight and save money for the home theater.

Things are still moving along...



Since I'm pretty much stuck putting my speakers in a cabinet, I've been wondering...

Our current cabinet plans involve hiding M60s behind doors in the cabinet, and opening/removing the doors when I plan to listen to them. I don't like that plan. With bookshelf speakers, I can probably forego the wife's need to "hide" the speakers.

I tend not to crank the volume up all that high when listening to movies or music. So, what would I sacrifice to go with a pair of M22's instead of the M60s? Either way, I'll have a decent subwoofer in the mix. I've read somewhere (I won't mention where ) that buying towers + a subwoofer are like paying for your bass twice.