Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Basic Denon Setup Question.

I have a Denon AVR-886S.

I ran the Auto Setup with the mic today. Im a little confused about the "Room EQ" function though.

When im comparing the different EQ curves such as, Flat, Normal, Front, Manual, and off, the "off" setting sounds best. Am I doing something wrong here? Should "Room EQ" even be used during movies and such or is this just a music function?

Thanks for the help.

Many of us that have Denon's keep the EQ off, sounds better that way.

I went through a similar thing with the setup of my Onkyo a month or so ago.

Alan suggested that I turn the equalization off and that is exactly what I did.

For what it is worth.

Yes, I agree. When I first got my Denon 2805 I ran the setup and left the RoomEQ on Normal. After a few days, I found the midrange frequencies to be to much. I have not used the roomeq stuff since. Alan from Axiom is a firm believer that good speakers like Axioms will sound worse with EQ turned on, and does not recommend the feature.

The setup does a pretty good job with delay(distance) and dB levels. I always follow up with my SPL meter to confirm things, but the auto setup does a good job. Also, don't be alarmed if the auto setup puts your sub a lot farther than the actual physical measurment. This is normal because of the internal circuitry.

Ok, thanks guys. I will leave it off.

One thing that I noticed with auto setup is that it dosent seem to raise the center channel db level high enough. im sure it makes it even with the other speakers but when people are talking in a movie or a show, the voice is a bit to low. I always have to turn my center up by about 2 db above the towers. Do you guys do this also? Thanks

I haven't had that problem with my center and my 80's, is your center placed at ear level or pointed there?

Yes, many of us do that exact same thing. I usually bump my CC up by 1.5 to 2 dB's over the mains. I'm not sure if it is related to my 60's being 8ohm and the VP150 being 6ohms? If I don't people are always saying, what did that actor/actress say? And if you turn up the main volume to hear the center, then the other speakers are to loud. At least that is my situation.

HomeDad, yes they are. Directly at ear level.

Sirquack, thats exactly what happens to me. During regular TV its fine. The problem is when there is a loud action movie playing and there is voice dialog while there is things blowing up and so on. The M60's kinda over power the center. Thus, I have to turn the center up a bit.

I love my Axioms but if I could wish for one thing it would be a center that is more powerful. If I could I would use 1 more M60 as the center but that would block my TV and from what I have read, turning the 60 on its side for a center would be a mistake.

Is there a center out there that is more powerful then the VP150 but will still match well with the M60's? Thanks

I'm not sure that power is a problem, I think the VP100 and VP150 are fine in that category. I'm not as technical when it comes to speaker design, but it has to have something to do with the design of the cabinet and/or the drivers specs. I thought the VP150 used the same type drivers as found in the 60's for the tweeters/woofers?

To me it is very obvious when I run the Test Tones, the pink noise sounds different coming from the 60's versus the 150 versus the Qs8's.

They do use the same drivers, but remember that placement in the room affects how a speaker sounds. If you had a system with five M60s (3 front and center, 2 surrounds), they'd sound different when you used pink noise test tones, too.

Funny, when I run the test tones, the VP100 is pretty similar to the M50s. It's the QS4s that sound completely and uttelry different. I'm not stressing on it, though...

Is there a problem if you set the center a couple of dB louder than the rest? If that fixes your problem, that's what I'd do.

Or, does that mess up things for other listening?

One other thing to consider is changing your listening mode of your receiver. I had a similar problem with my old Kenwood. The center just did not seem loud enough even though I set it up "correctly" with my SPL meter. Changing the listening mode on the old Kenwood did not seem to help the problem.

However, I don't have that problem with the Onkyo set to THX Cinema mode. Everything sounds just fine. Just something that you may want to consider.

Jay, as other replies have indicated, there's no problem with the "power" of the VP150. If what appears to be a balanced calibration doesn't give you enough dialog intelligibility, then the 2dB bump you mention is in order and unless it causes some other problem should be kept that way, as Bernard implied.

Also keep in mind that one of the equalization features that you paid for with the 886 is the manual equalization option. Although the fundamental frequency of human voices is in the area of 100-200Hz, it's the higher frequency overtones called "formants", lying in the upper mid-range from roughly 1-3KHz that contribute the most to speech intelligibility. In addition to, or instead of, simply increasing the overall volume of the center speaker, you might go to your manual equalization menu. Experiment with equalizing the center speaker, most likely at the 500, 1,000 and 2,000 Hz settings, up by 2-3dB.

I do the exact same thing with my Pioneer VSX74. If I have all the speakers at the same level at say -35, the center channel is hard to hear. I believe mine is currently bumped 3dBi.

Thanks JohnK, I forgot about playing around with the manual EQ on the VP150 versus adjusting the overall dB level on the receiver. I might try recalibrating everything, and then play with the 500-3khz settings to see if that helps with the voices/dialog....

Randy

johnk, i will give that a try today.

thanks!

Ok, I turned up the following frequency's.

125hz by 3db
500hz by 3db
1000hz by 3 db
2000hz by 3db

I turned up the 125hz frequency because you said the human voice frequency is between 100-200htz. I figured this would help also. Is this the wrong thing to do? Thanks

I also turned down the overall volume of the center to match the to M60's DB level.

I will let you know how it works out tonight while Im watching TV.

You probably don't want the center to be exactly what the mains are set at, you really need to run the auto setup on the receiver, if you have that option, or calibrate everything with an SPL meter first. Then once that is done, I would say play with the manual settings like you did. It is possible the center won't be the same SPL setting when using the meter, say 75dB or whatever you use...

When I ran the auto setup it set my Center at -1.5db and the mains at +2

This is not right though because If I keep it at that setting I cant here voice dialog very well and the mains overpower it a great deal.

correct, but I thought you were going to try adjusting the manual EQ frequencies versus adjusting the overall dB levels to see if there was a differance? So your saying your adjusting both?

i was just responding to your post about running the auto setup. i was just saying that i have already done that.

i have since listened to a few shows and movies and such and found that there dosent seem to be much difference between bumping up the overall volume of the center or just bumping up the different frequencies. i think i will just put them back to 0 and just keep the overall volume on the center higher by about 3 db. that seems to work best.

Thanks for testing that out Jay, now I don't have to.

You guys know whats funny. After alot of testing tonight on movies and different programs and so on. I find that setting the reciever to stereo sounds better then Dolby Digital! LOL. The human voice comming from the M60's just sounds better to me then it does from the VP150. I actully enjoy regular old stereo better then I do Dolby Digital. Have I gone mad or is anyone else like this?

I occasionally with cycle through some of the other modes on my Denon receiver. For example, 5 or 7 stereo modes so all my speakers are getting the same signal is interesting at times. Also, the Denon's "Widescreen" mode is interesting as it is similar to PLIIx in that it takes a 2channel or 5.1, and creates a 7 channel experience simulating a theater.

For movies, I doubt I'll ever replace DTS or DD modes for Stereo as you would be missing out on the surround effects, but doesn't hurt to try it. Does your receiver have "Direct" or "Pure Direct" modes? Those should sound even better than Stereo mode.

I have direct and pure direct but I dont like the sound of either. Stereo mode just has the most real feel and sound to my ears. Maybe im nuts.

There is not way if you watch a movie decoded in 5.1 or above, like Finding Nemo or whatever, that it would sound better in Stereo Mode versus DD, DTS, PLiiX or whatever.

For starters, your taking the surrounds out of the picture, which is the whole basis of Home Theater. Yeah the center can be phantomed by the two mains, but will never give you the same purpose as decoded on the DVD's.

I think your setup is wrong somewhere, not sure. Sorry I can't help, I'll never get rid of my 7.1 setup, maybe upgrade someday.

ps: bring on 10.1

Check your pm Sirquack. The problem is not in the setup.

I guess im not as much into surround as I am in hearing voice dialog and a very accurate sound. I like good sound very much and I like sound effects as much as anyone but im not willing to make a trade off in terms off voice and what is being said in the movie.

I watched a bunch of TV yesterday with the reciever set to stereo mode and for the first time in a long time I could hear the dialog very clearly while explosions and loud noises were happening in the backround. The M60's do a damn good job with the sound effects.

One thing that is puzzling to me is that when I set my cable box to output Dolby Digital sound and then set my reciever to stereo mode, I get a signal sent to my subwoofer. BUT, if I set my cable box to HDMI or 2 channel only sound I get no signal sent to my subwoofer. Not sure whats going on with that?

I'd check that cable box manual and see what happens on the different modes. I'd also check your receiver manual to see what happens with the differnt modes and the input mode signal.

Some times these interactions get a little complicated.

If you remove the surround speakers from the equation and watch a movie done in 5.1, the surround effects will not be rerouted to the mains. The only way this is possible is if you are using one of the DSP modes on the AVR to simulate the surround effects. This would be like going back in time to pre-pro logic days.

Yes, I understand im losing surround effects. I know that. Its more important to me to have clear dialog though.

I couldnt achieve this with the VP150. By simply bumping up the db level in the center channel it would screw up the harmony of the speakers in the front. Take for example, when something exploded, I would hear it in the center slightly more then in the mains. If I bumped the db level down a bet then I couldnt here dialog clearly. People would always say, "what did they say". I couldnt win no matter what I did. IMO the M60's do a far better job at recreating the human voice then the VP 150 does. If I could use the M60 as a center I would but I have no place to put it.

By the way, the M60's and the EP500 in stereo mode sound far better then regualar movie theater sound anyway. I dont really feel like im losing anything.

Hi New2Axiom,

Excellent thread you prompted and timely, too. You're right to turn off the Denon's Auto-EQ, and leave it off. The auto-level setting for channels is OK, but in virtually all cases the auto-EQ function will do far more harm than good with neutral, well-designed speakers like Axioms.

As to the center-channel dialog issue, here's an excerpt from a feature on "Do's" and "Don'ts" that will appear in the next Axiom Newsletter, due out on Tuesday, April 25th, which addresses this problem:

"Don’t get too fixated on perfectly “calibrating” the level of each channel so they are identical in a 5.1 or 7.1 system. Balancing the relative channel levels is an excellent starting point, but be prepared to make individual channel adjustments until you get a smooth, seamless blend of front channel music and effects, dialog clarity, and surround effects when they’re needed, and just the right amount of subwoofer bass. Note that dialog recording quality may vary quite a lot from one movie to the next, or even from scene to scene in the same movie. Some foreign or independent movies are poorly done, with dialog levels that vary constantly from scene to scene. The regional accents may make matters worse. So don’t be afraid to make center-channel level adjustments while you’re watching if you have trouble hearing the dialog. That’s what the center-channel level control is there for."

The comments about uneven dialog recording in some foreign and independent features were based on some recent experiences of mine and colleagues watching a British movie and an Indian movie, both with English dialog. At times, I bumped up the center-channel level to +8 dB so we could hear the dialog clearly.

Regards,

In reply to:

---

One thing that is puzzling to me is that when I set my cable box to output Dolby Digital sound and then set my reciever to stereo mode, I get a signal sent to my subwoofer. BUT, if I set my cable box to HDMI or 2 channel only sound I get no signal sent to my subwoofer. Not sure whats going on with that?

---

Just ask yourself - where does the sub source come from... and where is it sent? All about sources and destinations.

For sources, there may or may not be a discrete LFE channel. Stereo sources (CD, most TV channels) don't have them... even if you have your cable box set to DD, sometimes that's Dolby Digital 2.0 (digital, but 2 channel).

And then, what does the receiver do? If it gets a "dot 0" source, it can use an internal crossover to send the low bass to the sub, or just send full range to the mains. If it does receive an LFE channel, it can choose to play it out through the appropriate speaker (the subwoofer) or to reroute it to the mains.

Names of settings and DSP modes change from manufacturer to manufacturer, so there's no clear cut answer.

Bren R.

Well Jay, you actually can have an M60 center(actually two of them)by setting the 886 to no center so that the M60s will then do "phantom" center duty. Of course that means that you wouldn't be using the VP150 at all. Another thing to try temporarily is to set the VP150 vertically on the floor in front of your stand(adjust the 886 for the closer distance)and tilt it back slightly, to see if that improves the center sound any.

Thanks everyone for the help.

Johnk, I just learned of phantom mode today thanks to the always very helpful sirquack. Thats how I have it set now and I really like it that way.

Thanks again.

I just recently hooked up my Denon AVR-885S, the previous model. There's no auto EQ, but there is auto setup. I pretty much left the settings where the Denon put them, but I raised the sub level 3-4db. It did set the the sub distance much further then it's actual physical distance.

The one thing the Denon does with Dolby Digital, and does NOT do to DTS, is apply an automatic "Offset" to the center channel level to account for different mixing levels which could make the center "Hotter" than the other channels. It brings the center level inline with the other channels. When I switch between DD and DTS, the DTS center level is much louder. This could account for the perception that the center seems too quiet. If I hadn't read through the manual I'd have thought the same thing.

So far I am very happy with the AVR-885, which is basically a 2105 clone with a silver face.

Jay, part of your problem might be that your mains are not very far apart, and then you have the center in the middle. My 60's are about 14ft apart for good seperation with the 150 right in the middle. But then, I've got a 130" diagonal 2.35 screen.

I'll never part with my 150, notta.

you may be right sirquack, but if i seperate my mains any further, the right tower would be blocked by the sofa.

im pretty happy with how it sounds now though. thanks again for the help.

if anyone wants a VP150 in perfect condition for cheap, let me know.

against rules.