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W22 vs M22 vs M60 -- Not the Usual Problem
#136781 04/30/06 06:54 PM
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First of all, if I had a website, I'd post a diagram for you all... For now, I'll describe the pertinent HT room dimensions in words. The room is 12'9" Wide X 19' Long (once I build a rear wall--it is 35' long right now). Ceiling is 6'7" on the left side of the room, due to two A/C ducts (4' wide). The other 2/3 of ceiling on the right will be about 7.5' when finished (drop ceiling). I will have 2 rows of four seats, about 11 and 16ft back, both butted up to the left wall. I know the leftmost seats will not be ideal for listening, but it's better to have them than not...

Can you picture it so far?

I have 110" WIDTH to mount my PJ screen onto, starting from the left wall (under the A/C ducts) to the door frame. On the right side is a door that eats up the remaining 43 inches.

Now on to the problem(s):

CHOICE #1 -- 110" diag Perforated screen + Architectural Series LCR
Since I've read about perforated screens altering sound transmission, I'd like to avoid that route. Plus it adds about $1,500 to the cost! If I do that, the left W22 would be about 8" from the left wall, while the right W22 would have a more comfortable 4ft spacing.

CHOICE #2 -- 100" diag Screen + M22 L/R + VP150 under screen
With a 100" Stewart Luxus Screen, total width = 90in. That leaves me with 10" on either side of screen for M22's. If I place them right at the edge of the screen frame, the left M22 is only 3in. from the wall. I could move the screen over a couple inches, without looking bad, giving me 5 inches from the wall to the left channel M22. Again, the right side has no problem. So in this scenario, I'd get a little 'cleaner' sound by not using a perforated screen, but I'm worried about placing the speaker that close to the wall...

CHOICE #3 -- 100" diag Screen + M60 + VP150 under screen
I haven't read of anybody upgrading from M22's to M60's and regretting it. But for my room, M60's are really pushing it. I've got 10" on each side of screen, and the M60's are 9.25" wide. You do the math!! In this scenario, I can't 'right-adjust' my screen a couple of inches, so the left M60 would literally be 1/2" from the wall. That is so close that if I put some sort of acoustic treatment on the wall (which I plan to do), that the 2" thick material would visually (and audibly?) block the left speaker. That sucks!

Other info:
I do not want to decrease screen size below 100in. Why? because 100" sounds cooler than 92"! Also, the smaller the screen, the closer the Optoma H78/H79 (not sure which, yet) projector must be. I want it to be BEHIND the 2nd row, as it will be kinda low, due to ceiling height... but that's another story...
Receiver: probably Denon AVR-3806 - Audessy room EQ should help out with the loss of high frequency sound in Choice #1. Audessy *should* also help even to out whatever frequency gets boosted from corner-loading the left-front speaker. But how much? And what about the difference in reflected sound from the left and right speakers?
Other Axioms will include:
EP500 - up front
EP600 - behind seating
QS8 X 4
For the sake of planning, I'll say that this room will be used 100% for movies & video games.

Re: W22 vs M22 vs M60 -- Not the Usual Problem
#136782 04/30/06 07:12 PM
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how about a bank of 22's under the screen? two lefts, two rights, two centers. for your room size, i don't think a single pair of 22's will fill it very well, but if you double them.......i bet they'ld be o-plenty-good-enough. plus the two subs, that would be quite a system!

Re: W22 vs M22 vs M60 -- Not the Usual Problem
#136783 04/30/06 07:40 PM
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So you'd also be voting against the W22's for my room size, as well, right? Hmmmm...
As for your idea, the bottom of the 100" screen is only 29" from the floor. I have an entertainment console to store multiple video game systems that is the perfect height to place the VP150 on top of. I can angle the VP150 upwards, but having L/R that low doesn't appeal to me, especially for the people in the 2nd row seating (whose ears will be approx 42" high). The speaker height issue is one of the good points about mounting speakers behind a perforated screen.
Other considerations:
Where would I get 9" speaker stands... have Axiom custom-build them for $220/pr X 2 pairs? I'd rather spend the money on speakers versus stands... which is one reason why I want try to make the M60's happen.
Every good suggestion leads to more problems... But thanks, anyway! I hadn't thought of doubling the M22's. I've literally crossed out hundreds of ideas to get the point I'm at now in the planning process. It better be worth it in the end!

Re: W22 vs M22 vs M60 -- Not the Usual Problem
#136784 04/30/06 09:01 PM
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Do you have options for having the sceen higher? 29" is going to cause you problems. The people in the back row will have difficulty seeing over the front row. Trust me, I had to raise my 10ft wide screen higher from my original measurments. My back row is sitting on a 8" riser platform.

Normally, you want the eyes of the people in the front row to be 1/6th to 1/3rd from the bottom. I personally prefer 1/6th or lower. Some people do not like to sit up during the entire movie, and like to recline a bit. If your screen is to low, you won't be comfortable watching the low screen.

http://www.cinegi.com/cgi-bin/riser.cgi



M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85


Re: W22 vs M22 vs M60 -- Not the Usual Problem
#136785 04/30/06 09:20 PM
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Nope. The absolute maximum height of the top of the screen frame is 79", due to the A/C ducts. The ducts run the length of the house, from the utility room (behind the screen) and out the back of the HT room. I am planning on building a riser for the 2nd row. I didn't even bother to mention that the ceiling will be very low over the left side of row 2... The main room I wanted to buy this house in 2004 was because I had HT plans for the basement. I don't think my wife will agree to move now, just because I'm having difficulty putting it all together! Maybe we'll move again in five years, and I'll build a better HT. Until then, I'm trying to cram as many seats in front of as large a screen as possible with 7.1 sound! It can't/won't be perfect, but I want it to be as good as possible for as many seating positions as possible... thus the EP600/500 combo. At least I'll deliver the proper bass to each seat!

Re: W22 vs M22 vs M60 -- Not the Usual Problem
#136786 04/30/06 09:24 PM
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Well then I would recommend you use the above riser calculator, to make sure your 2nd row is high enough so the front row heads don't interfere with the movies, you won't like it if they do. Trust me, I had to raise my screen to accomodate this problem. My guess is you'll need a 10" or 12" riser to make this happen.


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85


Re: W22 vs M22 vs M60 -- Not the Usual Problem
#136787 04/30/06 09:46 PM
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Yeah, I've used that riser calculator... a lot. But until I actually get the seats (Berkline 088), I don't know exactly how high the tops of heads will be. I also don't know exactly how far back the 2nd row needs to be in order to recline. I've done a lot of experimenting using "dummy chairs & props" with the screen only 24" from the floor. I think 29" will work fine, but I won't know until for sure until after I spend the money!

Re: W22 vs M22 vs M60 -- Not the Usual Problem
#136788 04/30/06 11:16 PM
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So, back to my current problem:
I know it's not ideal to place a speaker right next to the wall. But I don't know WHY. What would happen if I were to do this? Maybe it won't be anything that novice ears would notice... Maybe it would still be better than mounting speakers behind the screen... Maybe the M60's would still sound better than the W22's or M22's...
Maybe...... Does anyone know?

Re: W22 vs M22 vs M60 -- Not the Usual Problem
#136789 05/01/06 12:30 AM
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Snug to the wall is not optimum, but definitely better than being too close to the rear wall. Axioms are rear ported and really do need to be about 12” from that wall, maybe a little less. I’d be hesitant to place them closer than 6” from your side wall. Your left will most definitely sound different than the right. I have an M80 crammed into a corner for the time being until my HT room is complete. I can tell you that it MOST DEFINITELY is different.

Sound is as important as video. Probably even more so. If it were me, I’d either go with a smaller screen, or buy that screen material for sound transparency and build my own screen, and put some M60’s behind it. You’d save a few hundred doing it yourself. It’s not all that difficult.


Re: W22 vs M22 vs M60 -- Not the Usual Problem
#136790 05/01/06 01:34 AM
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Do you think the difference in your M80's is just a mid-bass "hump" caused by the boundary effect of the wall? Have you tried to EQ it? Since your setup is temporary, I'm guessing not, which leaves me with more hope, at least temporarily! From what I've been able to find on AVS about my situation (which isn't much) the spacing behind the speaker seems to be more important. If the first reflection point is acoustically treated, then it may not be too bad. And whether my left speaker is 1" or 5" or 8" from the wall, won't I have some EQ issues no matter what? Is 1" that much worse than 8" in that regard?
As for building a screen frame and putting M60's behind it... that setup would stick the screen out over two feet into the room!

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