Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Alan, Can you give any insight on speaker wire?

Is the more expensive speaker wire better? What would you recommend for the axiom speaker, particularly the m22's? I would have to imagine a $400 pair is better than a radio shack bulk wire, but is say $200 bettercables, analysis plus, kimber kable, etc speaker cables better than $30 monster bulk speaker cable?

Has there not been enough comment on this? Ian and others like BBIBH have provided thoughts, ideas and comments on both sides of the fence.

You should search the posts for the answers, or as other people have said, which sounded better to you?

hasn't there been enough info and comments on axiom speakers on this site? maybe we should stop discussing them as well.
i was just looking for another experts opinion

Hello duff,

I'd recommend conventional generic--Radio Shack, etc; even Monster has some reasonably priced bulk wire--12-gauge to 14-gauge cable to connect your M22's. At that gauge, you could have cable runs of 20 to 50 feet with no significant alteration of resistance, and that's what counts.

As to expensive cable, I call it audio jewelry; if it looks pretty (and some of it does) and costs plenty, then of course you'll think it "sounds" better. But, in fact, electrons don't know whether they're traveling in expensive Monster, Kimber, or in low-cost generic copper. They move at the speed of light, and copper is copper, you know what I mean?

The branded Kimber and the like is okay if you'd rather spend large sums on cable than on good CDs or upgrading other components in your system. Will it make any difference to the sound of your system? No.

When individuals who believe differences in cable are asked to distinguish different cables in blind listening tests, the results have been utterly random. In extended listening tests conducted at the National Research Council in Ottawa, I have never heard any difference in branded or generic cables. Nor has a world-regarded Canadian scientist and past president of the Audio Engineering Society, Dr. Floyd Toole.

Regards,




Alan Lofft
Axiom Resident Expert

so I imagine I not not need to bother getting spades or banana connectors for my inexpensive speaker cable. Is this a correct assumption. If they come packaged together with the monster cable should i bother using them?

Alan,

That is the most straight forward and honest pieces of advice I have heard in a long time. Thanks.

Let's all name drop...shall we!

Did you not call another guy cavalier for suggesting things could affect sound?

Another ink stained wretch with nothing better to do than pander to the masses......

The spades or banana plugs also serve to make a good contact, and allow easier disconnection and reconnection. By fastening (soldering, crimping) all strands into a connector, you ensure all of the cable is properly secured. Stray strands have been known to short on speaker and amp binding posts. This would not be good!

While they may not have an affect on the sound, they are a good idea for a solid electrical and mechanical connection.

Regards,

BBIBH

My brother-in-law and I auditioned a $600, 10' TransparentCable "Music Wave" and $200+ 10' pair of TransparentCable the music wave 100. Honestly we could not tell the difference between the two. We also heard no difference between them and the $6.00 10' pair Home Depot wire. Some people maybe able to tell, but if I can't, that's what matters. So I can save my money for a new turntable!

Solid logic on your part! You are correct, it is your hard earned money, and if you don't hear the difference, make the correct choice and go the sane route.

Besides, think of how nice a Rega 3 will sound in your system! It will make a bigger difference than the expensive cable.

Regards,

BBIBH

I know of some people who have used even some home electrical wire and auditioned them can't see any audible differnces with my expensive 12 gauge monster cable.. all comes down to looks if you ask me....

Hey Duff,

Go to "Advice from Axiom Owners" forum and find a post titled "Cable match up to the M60" it's a few pages back. When you get to the post go to page 5, there you will find a post dated 6/10/02, 4:16 pm with a link to SPEAKER WIRE. Give it a read.

CAV104

Just wanted to thank you for your previous offer of Russell information, Jim. I found his home page a few months ago and found the information very useful.

Hey JohnK,

Rodger that.

CAV104

If your paranoid that your missing out on something, I suggest trying some CAT-5. There are many recipes out there for this sort of wire (typically using a braided configuration, like Kimber).

It's pretty cheap by the foot and so if you don't like what you make, just throw it out.

If your a computer geek, you may already be blessed with an ample supply of this cable. BTW - if you do try it, I would recommend use of the solid conductor variety, not the stranded sort.

Be very careful about spending serious money on speaker cable! The degree of back and forth argument among 'experts' is rather telling.

Check out http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm

Here is a hilarious quote from a section on the link:

"What we do is kind of dirty and stinky," he said. "We say we are starting with a 12 AWG zip cord, and we position a technician behind each speaker to change the cables out." The technicians hold up fancy-looking cables before they disappear behind the speakers. The critics debate the sound characteristics of each wire. "They describe huge changes and they say, 'Oh my God, John, tell me you can hear that difference,'" Mr. Dunlavy said. The trick is the technicians never actually change the cables, he said, adding, "It's the placebo effect."

I think that the changes noted by many people is just a bunch of bull. I have used 16ga Radio Shack zipcord, Monster XP speaker wire, and now 14ga 4-cond cable and have noticed no real differeneces. I have spent a few bucks more on good connectors and heat shrink to make them neater and make connections easier but you shouldn't have to spend much more than $50 on wiring all of your speakers. There is no scientific evidence that more expensive cables actually sound better, or even different for that matter. Anyone who spends >$100 per foot of speaker cable is probably bleeding out the you-know-what because they just got screwed bigtime.

Save your money for better speakers, amps, players, etc because they have a far more dramatic effect on sound than anything.

Actually i ended up spending about $150 on cables.
But then again, i had to buy about 120 feet of speaker cable, 2 a/v interconnects and 2 composite cables, just for starters. The lengths can really add it up.

That's why I put "...wiring all of your speakers." Interconnects and video cables can sometimes double what you spend on speaker cable if you buy them. I like to make my own interconnects. The cost is less than half per foot and you don't use any more than you actually need which can cut costs even more. I can make a very nice 1m pair of dual-shielded analog audio interconnects with Neutrik gold-plated connectors for about $7. Acoustic Research 1m pair is about $12. Since I only need about 1/2m, maybe a tad more, I can make the pair for about $5-$6. I think all my A/V cables (2 audio pairs and 3 composite video) cost me about $25, $30 tops, to make.

Compare that to about $50 for the AR cables at a local store in my town. Hey, I just saved myself enough to buy a new CD. Sure it took a bit more time to assemble and solder the cables but that's the fun part. As for the sound difference, I notice none whatsoever.

I hopped onto ebay myself. I ended up getting some AR and Ultralink interconnects for less than $15 for the pairs. Two pairs i actually picked up for around $6 and $8 (1m lengths).
There are definitely several ways to get/make good cables cheaply.
I just got lazy after soldering 24 banana plugs.

Chess...

Soldering?
You been soldering???? (heh heh)

So now you are ao old pro at it!!
(lead free - of course!)

Randyman

oh i've done alot of soldering now
24 whopping banana plugs, a couple a night for a week
I'm all soldered out.
It is definitely a finicky thing until you get the knack for understanding what it is supposed to do. My first mistake was using WAY too much solder...

and not enough heat?

btw - those banana plugs Dole or Chiquita?

R

oh i had plenty of heat alright
i tried out some pratice runs on 2 inch clips off the wire ends and on the first 2 i melted the casing

the plugs were AMX, i would buy a higher end plug next time more for the quality of the housing than anything

Chess...
OK so you won't bite on the joke part...( I love a good laugh)

seriously on the plugs - have you seen/tried those expensive twist locking ones made in Germany (oooh.. whats the name? WBT or something)

Sure look really good

Randyman

That was a good one Randyman. I tried using some Dole bananas but I kept smushing them during installation, getting all over the back of the receiver. When they did work the room would start smelling after a few days.

For my system I got lucky, I was able to piece together all the wiring in two nights. I used to solder my own guitar cables so I was already a decent solderer.

For the interconnects I almost went for the WBT plugs, they are nice looking) but bagged my Neutrik phono plugs for a little bit more than a buck a piece. Originally my system had junk plugs from Radio Shack (not even gold-plated) but I use Monster and Phoenix Gold banana plugs and spades.

yes yes bananas
that's a good one alright

so when does Randyman open up his new brand "monkey plug" company and start selling us the cheap bananas?

Ahhhh...
The smell of roasting bananas!

I prefer to solder mine with a little bit of butter, brown sugar, and a squirt of lemon - just the right combo for sweet sounding connections!

hmmm.. chesseroo...I have to think about that mokney plug company thing - esp. since I am really close to an endless supply.....

Thanks, You guys are great!

Randyman

I have to say something in the defence of people who have spent years developing speaker wire and other audio cables. There is science in their craft. I'm and Engineer who's studied electrical things, although I won't claim I'm the pre-eminent authority on electronics. However, from what I do know:

1. Electrons are not moving along the wire at the speed of light, although I don't think that matters.

2. The electrons do care about the wire they're travelling through. If the resistance of the wire were the only detrimental factor experienced, then why not just get 8 guage wire and keep your runs short? However there's more going on than this.
The wires will inherrently have inductance and capacitance, and these can be more nasty than just resistance alone, because they are dependant on the frequency of the signal being carried. Inductance will cause more impedance at low frequencies, and capacitance will cause more impedance at high frequencies. These impedances will also affect power factor, which can cause phase-shifts for some notes relative to others.

I'm keeping this purely theoretical so far... I'm going somewhere trust me.

3. This is the most important one by far: An audio cable must also protect the signal from being polluted by noise. Noise is caused by magnetic fields surrounding the cable. These fields are generated by other electronics in your house, and even with good magnetic sheilding, more is always better. I assume this is why Kimber Kable braids several small conductors instead of using a co-ax or conventional wire.


Now, having stated at least some of the theory behind making a better speaker wire, I must still concede the one rule of audio that's always true. If you can't hear the difference, or you don't like the difference you hear, then you'd be better spending the money elsewhere. I doubt I'd be able to detect any difference between the cables I use and $10,000 cables. And mine aren't that expensive. One of the reasons is that the distortions that will be caused by a poor cable will be miniscule compared to other, more critical aspects of a stereo system.

Spend your money somewhere else, for sure. I haven't yet tried bi-wiring or bi-amping my system yet, but I believe there is more merrit to doing this than on buying top-end speaker wire...

Lastly, the cable I use is by Kimber... the 4TC. It does the job and was not rediculously expensive, but was pricy enough for me. I think it's the best-looking cable, blue and black braided together. If that sort of thing matters to you, then I'd suggest checking out Kimber. You're stereo is really all about what you want it to be. I see it as a hobby, and once music gets involved, it's very enjoyable.

Regards,

Scott

All things are not equal, but for all things there is a point of deminishing returns..
Duff, don't be hoodwinked by all the hype out there.. Gauge is important, but unless you are planning on backing up your local electrical power station, 12 is big enough, but even 14 works fine in most cases..
All those adds about silver this, and cosmic that ? Just smoke-n-mirrors.. Sure, solid gold wire would be a pretty sweet ride, but would you or I honestly hear any difference between that and good old pure copper ? (Cost? Yikes !!)
Same for connection points.. Bare wire, secured in the provided posts works perfect.. Unless, as has been said by others, you intend to attach and unattach them often.. No problem, just get a good quaility device (banana/spade/pin) and have it.. Don't spend a fortune on super duper extra special, because my friend, it doesn't exist.. (Except on cheesburgers or course !)
As Judy found out, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".. Use a little common sence and you will fine..

As with speaker wires I thought like most of the people on this message board. An insulated zip cord is still a zip cord. But I think Scott picked one really seemingly 'special' zip cord. Try out the Kimber 4TC. If you bi-wire 4TC on top with 8TC on bottom and you will notice something with this special type of zip cord.
I tried Monster MCX and the Monster Z2 reference. Some people have mentioned that those are crappy compared to the Kimbers.

http://www.kimber.com

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=419

http://www.audioreview.com/Cables/Kimber,Kable,8TC/PRD_116464_1584crx.aspx

http://www.audioreview.com/Cables/Kimber,Kable,4TC/PRD_116461_1584crx.aspx

Again with the speaker wire.....

This is what I tried in the last 3 weeks since I have been on vacation all of December because of overtime.
tested the budget end speaker wire
12 gage Oxygen free standard wire .75/foot
12 gage Monster MC clear wire $3/foot
Monster MCX-1 gray insulated time correct bi-wire $6/foot
Monster Z2 Reference bi wire $11/foot
Kimber 4TC $10/foot
Kimber 8TC $20/foot

The first 3 speaker types wire sounded very close. Can't tell the difference. The MCX giving just a tad bit more sound stage...like very very very tiny bit.
The Z2 Reference had a better soundstage, more defined controlled bass and range. Mids were okey but a little muddy compared to Kimbers. The high were lacking kinda rolled off or cut short.
Kimber brought out the great soundstage I was missing with my speakers when I was demoing in the store. The highs were great, stage was much bigger. The bass was better with the 8TC. But the 4TC had better handle on highs on my speaker. So if you have bright speakers go for 4TC. If you have revealing neutral reference speakers go for 8TC. What some people have done is run 4TC on highs and 8TC on lows for bi-wiring. I can not tell you how much detail was revealed from going from my old Monster MCX to the Kimber 4TC.
One note on new Kimber wires...with the M22 the high in the beggining is kinda shrill. Give it at least 2 days to a week to mellow out after run in. This is a $200 or less invesment that made bigger differences that a separate CD player (rather than have the DVD do both) or high end interconnects. In the end let your ears decide and tell me what you think on Kimbers.

Saturn

ps:Happy New Year..another year of great music and sounds!!!
Oh all prices above is in Canadian funds .. loonie funds

For the record, i'll just cut and paste Alan's reply from wayyy back. An opinion that i agree with because i've heard 3 brands used myself and you just can't argue against the science of the double blind tests.

"Hello duff,
I'd recommend conventional generic--Radio Shack, etc; even Monster has some reasonably priced bulk wire--12-gauge to 14-gauge cable to connect your M22's. At that gauge, you could have cable runs of 20 to 50 feet with no significant alteration of resistance, and that's what counts.

As to expensive cable, I call it audio jewelry; if it looks pretty (and some of it does) and costs plenty, then of course you'll think it "sounds" better. But, in fact, electrons don't know whether they're traveling in expensive Monster, Kimber, or in low-cost generic copper. They move at the speed of light, and copper is copper, you know what I mean?

The branded Kimber and the like is okay if you'd rather spend large sums on cable than on good CDs or upgrading other components in your system. Will it make any difference to the sound of your system? No.

When individuals who believe differences in cable are asked to distinguish different cables in blind listening tests, the results have been utterly random. In extended listening tests conducted at the National Research Council in Ottawa, I have never heard any difference in branded or generic cables. Nor has a world-regarded Canadian scientist and past president of the Audio Engineering Society, Dr. Floyd Toole.

Regards,

Alan Lofft
Axiom Resident Expert"

Hello, I’m new to home audio, but have been lurking around for a bit reading up a lot about speaker wire because I think I may have gone “too cheap” on my wires. After spending around $3k on a whole set of Axiom speakers I can’t help but feel bad and would like some feed back. My issue is that I have 40ft runs to my surrounds and backs. I have to run it underneath the carpet but above the padding. After doing some looking around I found basically very few flat cables. Monster has it’s 12gauge for $1.49/ft and a 14 gauge for $.99/ft. I ended up getting some 16 gauge Acoustic research flat cable for $.19/ft. From what I’ve read so far, 16 gauge is hitting the limits on “recommended” lengths for 6 ohm speakers (http://home.earthlink.net/~rogerr7/wire.htm#wiretable) . So what I did was wire up 2 pairs of flat cable because it was still a lot cheaper. Are there any possible negative effects of what I’m doing? If there are, I would have to go back and cut a slot into my padding, and run 12 gauge wires. Here’s what I’ve Figured out:

I got resistance estimates from: http://www.pcavtech.com/techtalk/wire_size/

40 ft Monsters, 12 gauge, .0017ohms/ft, $1.49/ft, 4 speakers
Total Cost: $238 ($1.49*40ft*4runs)
Total Resistance per run: .136 ohms (.0017ohms/ft*40ft*2 for positive and negative)

40 ft Monsters, 14 gauge, .0026ohms/ft, $.99/ft, 4 speakers
Total Cost: $158 ($.99*40ft*4runs)
Total Resistance per run: .208 ohms (.0026ohms/ft*40ft*2 for positive and negative)

2 40ft Acoustic Research, 16 gauge, .0042ohms/ft, $.19/ft, 4 speakers
Total Cost: $61 ($.19*80ft*4runs)
Total Resistance per run: .168 ohms (.0021ohms/ft*40ft*2 for positive and negative)
1/Rt = 1/R1 + 1/R2 ( .0021 ohms/ft)

If I only considered resistance, running 2 pairs of 16 gauge is better then 14 gauge, but not as good as 12 gauge, and a save a heck of a lot of money.

Am I missing anything here?

I think that the double 16 gauge thing is a good idea only if you have the two cables immediately next to one another. (See this article. Yeah, yeah, same one.) However, 12 gauge should be enough. I wouldn't waste money on Monster; just get some from http://www.partsexpress.com or something. I belive there are some other threads on flat cabling 'round here.

I do have 2 cables right next to each other. They both run under the carpet, you can feel them, but just slightly. I read the article, don't quite understand the resistance effect on frequency response though... Does it mean that with greater the resistance I will potentially get a “boomy” effect?

I found this 13awg that I used to run to my rear channels.

13awg

just my input-for a 50 foot roll you can get 12 gauge wire over at parts express for 22 bucks. good quality wire.

RC, my view is that you're trying to cut this a bit too fine. As Mr. Russell pointed out, his suggestions were "conservative". I wouldn't have been concerned about a single 16 gauge run in your situation, and the double run(equivalent to 13 gauge) is certainly plenty. Yes,if the resistance of the wire is too high the output of the amp will tend to "follow" the swings in speaker impedance, slightly over-emphasizing the response at impedance high points, such as often exist in the bass area.

Thanks! I think that would work great for me. For some reason I didn't find it. I bought a spool of 16 gauge from the same place.

For the record, I've heard differences with different commbinations of cable as well. I'm not so sure the VERY expensive cables are worth it but I have heard differences...