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SVS PB-12 vs EP350
#147695 09/16/06 03:33 PM
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Can anyone be kind enough to shed some light on these subwoofers please? With shipping they are the same price, but I do hear that the SVS is better. Is this true? Are the differences too minor to get a sub from a different company?

Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
drew88 #147696 09/16/06 04:25 PM
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You just asked one of the harder questions

The two subs almost target different applications. The SVS is a big, arguably ugly black box with high enclosure volume and large, highly resonant ports. It produces the most deep bass and seems to outperform the EP350 in a pure movie environment. The downside is that the enclosure and port keep resonating a bit after the signal has gone away, so musical performance isn't as tight. As with every other aspect of A/V system performance, some people hear this effect more than others -- some won't even consider using an SVS for music, others think they sound fine and don't know what the fuss is about.

The EP350, on the other hand, is a smaller enclosure with small ports so less contribution from the enclosure/port assembly. The result is a bit less raw output on movies, but (again arguably) better performance on music. The smaller enclosure and nicer finish also are a huge issue for some installations (eg. a dual-use room where the system needs to look "nice") but in a pure HT environment the big black box might be fine.

Which is best for you ? Depends on how you value (and/or believe ) each of the points above.

Both are very capable subs, each has pros and cons.

EDIT -- just took a look at the latest PB12 (the NSD, based on the PB10 design). It is more than twice as big as the EP350 (~9500 cubic inches vs. ~4400 for the EP350) but it looks like the new port definitely takes the bass response a bit lower. I think everything above still holds but maybe even more so.

The PB10 is felt to be a fantastic little sub for movies but has actually been described as "sucking" for music, while the musical performance of larger SVSs have historically been described with nicer language. I am only guessing, but I expect much of the same will apply to the new PB12.

Like Hsu, Axiom seems to have tried to keep more of a balance between music and movie performance while SVS has tended to optimize more for the movies. As you move into the more expensive models from any of the companies the compromises tend to go away -- it's only at the price ranges we can *afford* where you have to look hard at where each product is targetted.

Last edited by bridgman; 09/16/06 04:57 PM.

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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
bridgman #147697 09/16/06 04:58 PM
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I'm buying a HT for the purpose of watching many, many movies. I tend to use my senheisser HD595's for music and only occasionally listen to music on my HT.

The purpose of asking the question is that I thought the SVS was a pretty good step up in quality over the EP350. If this isn't true than I'll go with the EP350 just for the sake of having a matching subwoofer. Of course, I'm also open to the option of getting the EP500...but that's a tough one...

Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
drew88 #147698 09/16/06 05:27 PM
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The EP500 is a great step up from the 350.

Worth the difference! IMHO!

Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
bugbitten #147699 09/16/06 06:00 PM
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For a pure movie system I think you would find the latest PB12 goes noticeably deeper than the EP350, and you probably would prefer it, at least in a larger room.

On the other hand, the EP500 is a totally different beast from the EP350... it plays deep bass more accurately than the SVS, is reported to be one of the better ported subs for music, has tons of power, handles overdrive situations much more gracefully than most subs (ie you can crank the volume and not hear your sub making "grunking" noises), and is still small, nicely finished and matches all your other speakers.

But, of course, it is more expensive too. Welcome to the slippery slope

>>the SVS was a pretty good step up in quality

I probably don't need to say this, but we're not talking about quality here, just "design philosophy". The EP350 is nice, well balanced subwoofer that does music and movies well, which is what most people want when buying a system. The SVS plays deeper (and probably a bit louder) but sacrifices size, finish and musical performance. They are both high quality subs, although I'm sure Axiom and SVS both feel their own products are higher quality

Last edited by bridgman; 09/16/06 06:19 PM.

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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
bridgman #147700 09/21/06 05:14 PM
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the EP350 will extend down to 18hz will it not? Mabey I misread the specs...Which sub do you have bridgeman?

-Robb.

Last edited by Hutzal; 09/21/06 05:16 PM.

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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
Hutzal #147701 09/21/06 05:28 PM
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It is shown as down to 18Hz in room at -9dB. I doubt you will get much "usuable" bass that low, and also depends on the room. The anechoic +/- 3dB rating of 28Hz would be a better spec to use for comparisons, with maybe useful in room response to about 25Hz.


-Dave

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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
drew88 #147702 09/21/06 07:01 PM
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Quote:

I'm buying a HT for the purpose of watching many, many movies. I tend to use my senheisser HD595's for music and only occasionally listen to music on my HT.

The purpose of asking the question is that I thought the SVS was a pretty good step up in quality over the EP350. If this isn't true than I'll go with the EP350 just for the sake of having a matching subwoofer. Of course, I'm also open to the option of getting the EP500...but that's a tough one...




A word of caution when considering mismatching a pair of subs. Make sure that the tuning points of the subs are reasonably close, to me that means 1 hz, 2hz max. If the tuning points are too different it will be more difficult to dial in phase correctly especially at the crossover point where most artifacts tend to occur. The sound from those subs will sound more smeared than what you would hear from each one separately.

Based on the size of the enclosure of the PB12 I'd guestimate its tuning point is around 21-22hz (similar to the Ultra) however the FR curve and size of the EP350 suggests a tuning point around 30hz. I may be off slightly but its bound to be quite a bit higher than the PB12. I wouldn't recommend this mismatch. You would experience better bass with a pair of either the PB12 or the EP350.

If it was my HT I would sell the EP350 and get the EP500 which is a step above both the PB12 and the EP350 in terms of articulation and accurate bass reproduction. Selling the EP350 and buying the EP500 would be cheaper than buying another EP350 or PB12.


John
Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
bridgman #147703 09/21/06 09:01 PM
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Bridgeman,

Here is a $400 sub showdown including the PB10-ISD (the older model).

He did in fact agree with you in saying that it wasn't a very musical sub. He then used a filter for sub 25hz notes.

Here is a quote " Conveniently, the AudioControl equalizer has an optional 18 dB/octave high-pass filter with available settings at 15 Hz, 25 Hz and 35 Hz. I switched it on to 25 Hz, and the effect on the PB10-ISD’s ability to render detail was simply astounding. Suddenly there was resolution and detail in spades!

Not entirely sure what a High-pass filter is, is this done with a receiver?

-Robb.


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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
Hutzal #147704 09/21/06 10:21 PM
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The high-pass filter, lets all frequencies 'higher' than the filter pass, and then steps off or reduces those lower at the filter frequency at a certain slope.

So in the article, he is using the filter to filter out below 25 Hz, leaving more headroom for the sub, now that it doesn't have to reproduce the lower freq. It is not a hard cutoff, but slopes off below 25Hz at 18 dB per octave.


-Dave

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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
Hutzal #147705 09/22/06 12:22 AM
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>>Which sub do you have bridgeman?

I have an SVS PC-Plus 20-39. I bought it before the EP500 and 600 were available, ie when buying a sub was a lot easier. The PC+ ended up costing about the same as an EP500 once it was shipped to and imported into Canada, so if I were doing it again I would probably have gone with an EP500.


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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
bridgman #147706 09/22/06 02:35 PM
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I would love for Axiom to make an EP400.

This would have the same type of driver that the EP500 contains and extends to lower frequencies such as 18hz using XLF (Extended Low Frequency) technology.

Increase the price a bit to compensate. Really, I think they need to make a "Mini" EP500 with the same qualities for smaller rooms.

-Hutz

Last edited by Hutzal; 09/22/06 02:45 PM.

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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
Hutzal #147707 09/22/06 05:55 PM
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I have suggested an EP400 enough times that it has become a standing joke around the Axiom factory.

My suggestion was to switch to the EP500 cabinet to get a lower tune point, but stay with the existing EP350 electronics (or a digital, no DSP replacement) to keep the price point. I think the question we have to ask is not "what would you add to the EP350", but "what would you take out of the EP500 which would actually reduce the build cost and allow a significantly lower price point ?".

Last edited by bridgman; 09/22/06 05:58 PM.

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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
bridgman #147708 09/22/06 06:57 PM
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IF there is somehow a way to make a 10" version that goes to 18 - 20hz at 100db with the XLF technology, that would work I think. If you stick a 10" driver in the cabinet of the EP500 you would have alot bigger of a cabinet to push out those dbs at a lower frequency.

Although I do not know much about this stuff, i may be blowing hot air here

-Hutz


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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
Hutzal #147709 09/22/06 08:23 PM
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Changing one of the subs important parameters like a driver or enclosure size will impact everything else significantly. It would be much more difficult to match the EP500s smooth FR and extension even with the XLF technology.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the sub line expanded.
Mini versions of the 500 using smaller enclosures and drivers would make alot of sense but the FR range would be smaller if you want it linear which is Axiom's hallmark.

I wouldn't be lulled by other manufacturers' claims of uncomporomised extension for the sake of sub 20hz response. Those subs are not usually linear especially compared to an Axiom sub. With other subs I've owned that extension usually comes at the price of less distinct bass and falling FR from 30hz up. Not a good compromise.


John
Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
bridgman #147710 03/02/07 06:18 AM
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>>I have suggested an EP400 enough times that it has become a standing joke around the Axiom factory.

Now that Axiom has launched the EP400 as a "smaller but still really powerful" baby brother to the EP500 I guess they're going to have to call "my sub" (EP350 guts in the larger EP500 box) the EP350 v3

Hsu did the same thing a few months back -- moved all of their subs up one "box", eg. putting the VTF-1 guts in the VTF-2 box, VTF-2 guts in the VTF-3 box. That caused a couple of my Hsu-owning friends a lot of grief because it meant that they could no longer get turbo kits for their VTF-3s, so they no longer had an upgrade path.

As jakeman posted above, relying on just the enclosure to get deep bass brings other problems; the "EP350 v3" would be at its best as a movie sub and probably not as good as the current EP350 for music -- but IMO the "reasonably priced killer movie sub" is the biggest need and I *think* the results for music would be pretty good.

Going back to an earlier post, I think the purpose of the high pass filter on the PB10 was not so much increased headroom as trying to avoid exciting the enclosure around the 18-20 hz tune point, so the sub can't "muddy" the sound by having the enclosure & port continue to resonate after the initial sound has gone away.

Hey... a high pass filter switch would be a great feature for the EP350v3

Last edited by bridgman; 03/02/07 06:32 AM.

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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
bridgman #147711 03/02/07 01:11 PM
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Quote:

Hsu did the same thing a few months back -- moved all of their subs up one "box", eg. putting the VTF-1 guts in the VTF-2 box, VTF-2 guts in the VTF-3 box. That caused a couple of my Hsu-owning friends a lot of grief because it meant that they could no longer get turbo kits for their VTF-3s, so they no longer had an upgrade path.





If they have rear firing ports they can still use the turbo.


Rick


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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
Wid #147712 03/02/07 02:01 PM
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That would be great, but I think the port size was changed between the VTF3 Mk2 and the new box used for VTF3 HO and Mk3. The new box has 4" ports and the turbo is only made for the new box.

Ahh, here we go. Looks like the HO turbo will work on the Mk2 if you put the 4" turbo tubes around the OUTSIDE of the 3" port flares on the Mk2. Reports seem to indicate that it looks like it will fall apart with the first good thump but actually seems to work pretty well. Thanks !

http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showthread.php?t=2859

Edit -- oh geez... looks like in addition to the "turbo" (longer ports) there is talk about also offering a "Hsupercharger" (add-on box to increase enclosure volume) which *might* be available for the VTF3 Mk2.

http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showthread.php?t=2309

I have to admit this seems *really* clunky and I doubt it will see production.

Last edited by bridgman; 03/02/07 02:20 PM.

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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
bridgman #147713 03/02/07 02:30 PM
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Final correction -- looks like only the VTF3 Mk3 moved an existing driver into a larger cabinet. For the other subs they actually picked up both cabinet *and* driver from the next higher model, or moved the electronics *down* one model, depending on how you want to think about it.

In other words VTF3 Mk2 + new HO cabinet = VTF3 Mk3, VTF3 Mk2 plus smaller amp from VTF2 = VTF2 Mk3. That all seems too confusing.

Last edited by bridgman; 03/02/07 02:41 PM.

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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
bridgman #147714 03/02/07 02:46 PM
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Quote:

That all seems too confusing.





Ummmm. Yeah.






::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
MarkSJohnson #147715 03/02/07 03:03 PM
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I recently purchased the HSU STF-3 12-inch 300w Subwoofer from Electronics for Less. Haven't even opened up the box yet. I didn't realize at the time to ask if this sub would be good for both movies and music. Just wondering on what everyone's thoughts are on this sub? I can still return it if need be. My Sub

Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
DanielBMe #147716 03/02/07 03:12 PM
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Daniel, I have had my STF-3 for almost 2 weeks, not really calibrated it but setup to my ears liking. It literally shakes the walls during movies and I have it turned down.

Used it for music as well and I really like it. Subtle bass with jazz, blues and I really notice I "feel" the bass with more rock like Bob Seger, Neil Young, John Hiatt.

I had it on low in the other room and the wife and I were giving the kids a bath and she noticed the sound of the bass from the bathroom while I was playing her favorite Norah Jones disc .

I know a real audiphile place in Calgary that carries HSU and the guy there is a snob against HT setups. He was suggesting the VTF2.2 10" sub to me.

My final conclusion to you is that the STF-3 is great for movies, really good for music, but if you are a borderline audiophile you might prefer a 10" sub as it may be tighter bass, but will not move the air you need for a large room for HT.

For me the STF-3 is almost perfect. Because nothing really is "perfect"

Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
DanielBMe #147717 03/02/07 03:13 PM
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The STF 3 will be great for movies as well as music. Open it up and give it try, I bet you will love it. BTW I have one too.

I have both a 10" sub and the 12" sub from Hsu and they both have the same sonic signiture. The 12" is a lot more powerful though.

I don't find the Hsu product line confusing at all, then again I have been keeping up with it for a few years.

Last edited by wid; 03/02/07 03:16 PM.

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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
Wid #147718 03/02/07 03:31 PM
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I can't try the sub until my HG M50's, VP150, QS4's arrive in about 3 weeks. Somehow I suspect my neighbours aren't going to be too happy. I live in an 800sq ft condo and one of my neighbours bedroom is on the wall of my living room. Luckily for me they like to partake in the wacky tabacky with the delicate aroma gently carried across the balcony and into my living room...so we have a mutual agreement of sorts. I don't complain and they don't complain lol

On another note, boy did I have a hard time finding a stand for my stereo and tv. Most of the good stuff is min $1,000. Way past my budget. Even harder to find one that would fit a VP150 in the cabinet below the tv. I ended up with the following from Tech Craft My Stand


Last edited by DanielBMe; 03/02/07 03:37 PM.
Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
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That's going to make for one fine setup. That's a lot of sub for your condo


Rick


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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
Wid #147720 03/02/07 03:39 PM
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The question is "is it too much?" or should I replace it with a smaller version. I had a 10inch Energy that was about 7yrs old. I really didn't think it was up to the task for movies or music. I would have gone with the 350 from Axiom but the price was out of reach.

Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
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Keep it, it's not going to be overkill, there's no such thing. Seriously you will be thrilled with it.


Rick


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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
Wid #147722 03/02/07 03:48 PM
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Somehow I knew I would get a response of "it's never too much" lol. I'll keep it, plus if I ever do get a bigger place I won't have to upgrade.

Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
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Rick


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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
DanielBMe #147724 03/02/07 04:02 PM
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Quote:

I can't try the sub until my HG M50's, VP150, QS4's arrive in about 3 weeks. Somehow I suspect my neighbours aren't going to be too happy. I live in an 800sq ft condo and one of my neighbours bedroom is on the wall of my living room. Luckily for me they like to partake in the wacky tabacky with the delicate aroma gently carried across the balcony and into my living room...so we have a mutual agreement of sorts. I don't complain and they don't complain lol

On another note, boy did I have a hard time finding a stand for my stereo and tv. Most of the good stuff is min $1,000. Way past my budget. Even harder to find one that would fit a VP150 in the cabinet below the tv. I ended up with the following from Tech Craft My Stand





Daniel,

If you own your condo, I would consider seeing how much it would cost to double up the drywall on that common wall in your living room with a layer of Green Glue between the 2 sheets of drywall. You can get your STC (sound transmission coeficient) up to above 50db by doing that. Your neighbors would hardly compain at all, if they could hear it (assuming your not going to be blasting your speakers above 100db. Average room db noise level is 40db, so if you keep your speakers at reference level (75 db) then you should be fine)

Just something to consider, It might not even be that much work seeing as its only a 800sqft condo, what are the dimensions of your common wall?

-Hutz


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Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
DanielBMe #147725 03/02/07 04:32 PM
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Quote:

The question is "is it too much?" or should I replace it with a smaller version. I had a 10inch Energy that was about 7yrs old. I really didn't think it was up to the task for movies or music. I would have gone with the 350 from Axiom but the price was out of reach.




You probably could have gotten away with a VTF2.2 from EFL, but when you eventually move out of the condo, you will have enough sub for your house. You are somewhat future proofed.

What kind of TV do you have?

This stand will hold a lot and isnt too pricey. http://www.thebrick.com/Application/Cart...%2DC2F45797D468

Re: SVS PB-12 vs EP350
Hutzal #147726 03/02/07 06:36 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

I can't try the sub until my HG M50's, VP150, QS4's arrive in about 3 weeks. Somehow I suspect my neighbours aren't going to be too happy. I live in an 800sq ft condo and one of my neighbours bedroom is on the wall of my living room. Luckily for me they like to partake in the wacky tabacky with the delicate aroma gently carried across the balcony and into my living room...so we have a mutual agreement of sorts. I don't complain and they don't complain lol

On another note, boy did I have a hard time finding a stand for my stereo and tv. Most of the good stuff is min $1,000. Way past my budget. Even harder to find one that would fit a VP150 in the cabinet below the tv. I ended up with the following from Tech Craft My Stand





Daniel,

If you own your condo, I would consider seeing how much it would cost to double up the drywall on that common wall in your living room with a layer of Green Glue between the 2 sheets of drywall. You can get your STC (sound transmission coeficient) up to above 50db by doing that. Your neighbors would hardly compain at all, if they could hear it (assuming your not going to be blasting your speakers above 100db. Average room db noise level is 40db, so if you keep your speakers at reference level (75 db) then you should be fine)

Just something to consider, It might not even be that much work seeing as its only a 800sqft condo, what are the dimensions of your common wall?

-Hutz




Remember in an 800sq ft condo every inch counts...hmmm sounds like something a girlfriend might have said...oops off topic...anyhow the shared wall is about 9 x 16. Adding another layer is definitely out. I don't think it will be too much a problem. I typically will not play a movie after midnight on the weekends..well movies with lots of explosions ..

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