Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Yeh I know but please give recvr advice anyway ;-)

Posted this on other forum but got no takers and I thought maybe you all would pitch in. Room is 27 x 13.5 with 8'ceilings sloped up to 11'in center.

I have decided, but not yet purchased, the following 5.1 system (will add more speakers when content demands):

Display: Panasonic TH-50PH9UK
Speakers/sub: Axiom Epic 60-500 (in Natural Rosewood with Satin finish I think but waiting for sample)
DVD: Denon DVD-1920
HD STB: Motorola 3412 (no real choice here right now)

I am trying to strike a balance between quality/value/performance. I am the wife so I have no WAF to deal with, however DH watches to see that I don't spend unrestrained and that it doesn't take a degree in rocket science to drive this thing (he has zero geek factor in his DNA unless you consider power tools in the geek realm).

Also I bought a Hooker entertainment center already to house this stuff in my semi-formal mostly 19th century French furniture room and the components (but not the beautiful speakers)will all be in cabinets-so overheating is a concern.

Hooker EC

Axiom rep (JC) suggested Denon as well as the Sherwood Newcastle (?). He said I should only consider a receiver with mofset amps. Not sure that I understand the trade-off between mofset vs tube.

My contenders were:

Denon 3806
Yamaha 2600
Pioneer 74 or 84 txsi

As a software engineer I understand the difficulty in providing complex customization but highly value useability and tend to think the Denons need a lot of work in the useability realm. I want a great listening/viewing experience and will rarely dink around with the equipment-more likely to set it and forget it than what a true audio/videophile would get off on. Therefore the Denon is my least favorite of the three-though I can be convinced.

So which should I buy and why? Other options (with HDMI) are welcome.

On a completely different track-I am not wild about the speaker stands for the QS8 surrounds and would welcome options from others with these speakers.

Thanks in advance for any help/opinions,
Laurie

Hi Laurie,

While I'd agree in principle with JC on amplifiers using MOSFET output transistors (nothing to do with tubes, by the way), it's not the only way to design a robust amplifier.

Given the room dimensions, I'd suggest you go with the Denon 3806. The Denons are powerful and do not shut down with lower impedances such as the 4-ohm M80s. Generally speaking, they have more robust amplifier sections than the Yamaha's and Pioneers, although several models from each of those are very good.

While your M60s are 8 ohms and an easy load for any AV receiver, I'd still opt for the Denon because of my comments above.

Hi Laurie,

Welcome. I enjoyed reading your post; it struck several chords with me.

I have a lower-level Denon (1804) and, as I've observed to this group previously, the person who designed the user interface simply looks at the world in a much different way than I do. It transcends "counter-intuitive" to me.

I would also consider HK and possibly Outlaw Audio. There are many board regulars who have powered similar systems successfully with a wide variety of equipment. There are also Onkyo devotees among us. I am not familiar with the 3806 remote control, but the 1804 was completely useless. You might want to consider the notion of budgeting for a Harmony or URC system remote; the initial investment in programming it will pay dividends on every use.

My counsel on the receiver front would be to download the user manuals for models you are considering and try to get a feel for whether they make sense to you. I hesitate to disagree with Alan, but my experience with the Denons is that the engineering is wonderful but the structure of the UI can be very frustrating. I don't think a 5.1 system including the M60's is going to be a prohibitive load for any of the brands that have been mentioned so far, especially if you are not listening at very high volumes for extended periods.

Is there some reason why you would not simply mount the QS8's on the wall using the included T Bracket? You can get Cord-Mate track to hide the wires easily if you don't want to fish them through the wall.

Good luck. Welcome. Your DH is lucky to have you.

Laurie,

I was interested that JC suggested Sherwood Newcastle.

I currently own the Sherwood Newcastle R-965 A/V reciever. I have it running M60's, a VP 150 and QS-8's in a 18' X 19' room with a two story vault. The Sherwood does not break a sweat and powers the speakers effortlessly. It is a 7.1 reciever with the option to run a separate audio source to the rear speakers as a Room 2 config. I also have a SVS PB12 Plus / 2 subwoofer connected the system.

I got a deal on the unit at a Get To Gather for a rival speaker company and have been very pleased with the unit...

The remote that comes with the unit is a rebranded HTM MX-500. And the set up menus are well thought out but it does have a couple of idiosyncracies but not as many as some of the stories Denon owners have passed on. You might want to check out the manual for the R-965.

Not to say Denon are not great units...If I had not stumbled on this deal, I would have eventually bought Denon. The Sherwood unit is field upgradable so as they update the features, you can update it at home...

Your choice, though, just thought I would pass on my experience with this Sherwood.

Alan, What is your expert, informed opinion of the Sherwood unit mentioned? I would be interested in hearing your thoughts...Don't worry about bruising my ego though...I can't afford anything else right now, just interested in your views.

Laurie, good luck in your choices...sounds like you have most of the geek genes in your family

Regards,

WhatFurrer

The pioneer elite 84 is an excellent receiver with very adequate power and has a very accurate auto calibration setup although I wouldn't use the room equalization. I have the cheaper pioneer 1015 with 60's, vp150 and Qs8s and it works great.

Hi Laurien. I can understand your dilema. I chose the Yamaha 2600 after doing a side by side comparison with the Denon 2807, and I'm very happy with it. As for the "ease of use" I'm not sure if the Yamaha is easier to use, It definitely has a lernning curve and the manual could be much better. Check out the Yamaha 2700, it's pretty much the same for a few $ less.

osvaldo

Laurie,

I can understand your concern about Denon's UI. It is a nightmare, and in my humble opinion, not worth putting up with because it might be compatable with 4 ohm speakers. I've had a Pioneer, Yamaha, a Denon and and a couple of HKs in the past, and currently am running my Axiom speakers with an HK. If I needed a receiver today, I would probably purchase a Yamaha, first, and an HK, secondly. I didn't care for the Denon I had, and gladly gave it away to a family member who has more respect for that manufacturer's products than I do. I know Denon is popular around here, but I don't think their receivers are for everyone. As far as the QS8s, they come with wall mounting brackets, so you can anchor them to walls.

Thank you all for taking the time to respond to an understandably tiresome newbie kind of question. I am especially honored to been answered by Alan on my first post.

I did consider looking at the manuals to get a better handle on which receiver to pick, but being as familiar with product documentation as I am, I hesitated thinking that I would reject a great product because of lousy documentation-or worse yet (even though snowballs surviving in very warm places are more likely)that I would buy a poor product based on great documentation. But I have read and researched as much as I can, so I do think that is a logical next step.

Ooh baby, planning to read receiver documentation on a Friday night. Do I live the high life or what?

Your responses validated my thinking to pass on the Denons though-Alan's advice not withstanding. I forgot that JC did suggest an HK as well, but I have seen more than one indication that their quality isn't what it used to be and that more people are having failures with these receivers, though I didn't keep track of which models were involved.

As for wall mounting the surrounds, that really isn't an option. Here is a link to a quick sketch of the room I made:

Living room

I thought to put the surrounds behind the recliner on the left and the sectional on the right. The left side is all big windows (with a gorgeous view of the Wasatch mountains and a bunch of oak and aspen). In between the windows are drapes-ie no open wall space and I don't want to put the surround behind the drapes on that side. On the left side is the only wall space I have and as much as I love the look of the speakers they aren't going next to the only piece of art in the room. The only other wall space is all the way to the back of the room and that seems too far away. So discreet stands behind the recliner and in the corner between the couch and the kitchen counter is where I want to put them.

Not that it matters, but could one of you explain mofset amps to me? I googled it briefly but that didn't help.

Last, I agree with tomtuttle. My DH is VERY lucky to have me. He must also agree or he wouldn't have stayed married these last 26 years (though it took me almost 7 years to get him to do that it the first place). Yes, we are old, but there is upside to that as well. Our hearing is going or I would have looked to spend even more money on putting this system together.

Looking forward to getting to know you all better,'

Laurie

Hi Laurie, and welcome!

I can't comment on the Denon, but I do own a Yamaha. As much as the experts don't recommend them for a 4ohm load, mine has been bullit proof driving the M80's for over 3 years now. It has never given me a second of trouble.

As far as the interface goes, it could stand to be better. I am used to it now, but it's still not that good. For example, I can't help but play with the sub levels THROUGHOUT a movie. To do this, you need to enter 2 to 3 keystrokes AND watch the display every time. Pain in the back side.

I used to long for an HK, but with all the reports of quality demons, I've had a change of heart. When it comes time to change, I'll be looking at Rotel or even Axiom when they finally come to market.

Hey Laurie,

Our good forum friend dllewel lives somewhere in Utah. I like Dave's setup very much. He seems satisfied with his Lexicon receiver, in case you were not confused enough.

Many people seem quite fond of the Outlaw 1070 receiver.

I am not sure I'd let the HDMI switching drive my decision. Since you'll have everything in that lovely entertainment center, it really doesn't make a lot of difference how the wires get routed as long as the right switches get thrown when you press your remote button. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but a nice remote will really be a godsend, and, as already mentioned, some of the higher end receivers come with very capable remotes.

Is there a chance of mounting the speakers from the ceiling, or even very high on the walls and angled down? I'm sure the stands will be fine, but I like to get the speakers out of the way, because I'm almost as clumsy as the dog.

I don't think you need to understand mosfet amps to solve your problem.

Thanks for your time and interest. Enjoy your journey!

Laurie, welcome. The choice between using bipolar or mosfet output transistors is relevant to the engineers designing receivers, but should be a non-issue to the user. Units in all price ranges use either type with essentially equal end results. Tubes represent an obsolescent technology and aren't competitive on a price/quality scale.

As far as the receivers that you're considering, any would serve you well. Since you apparently would like something specific, I'll suggest the Yamaha 2600(or the new 2700)as being possibly a bit more user-friendly(at least the manual is).

Welcome Laurie,

Excellent choices for home entertainment.

Many good choices for receiver. All of the above are good.

I wouldn't worry about the "user-friendly" part of picking one. There are plenty of friendly users here to help out.

The Denon 3806 or the 2807 are nice fits.

WhatFurrer,

Thanks for your commments, Tom Tuttles, and everyone's contributions.
The Sherwood Newcastle receivers have excellent amplifier sections. We have several different models at the Axiom plant and even the least expensive (an AV model combined with a DVD player; no longer in the line, if I recall) will drive the 4-ohm M80s with no problems.

I'll preface my general comments on "ease of use" by saying that no particular brand--Denon, Yamaha, H/K, Onkyo, Pioneer-- is easy to use without consulting the manual. But certainly some brands seem to be a bit more intuitive, or the remote has more clearly labeled buttons, or there are dedicated buttons on the front panel that are easy to find, not hidden behind a little panel with labels impossible to read without a flashlight.

I have not had experience with the Denon 3806, but a more junior model (a 1704, perhaps) belonging to a friend's son I was able to get operating and switching different surround modes without consulting the manual.

My visits to the Axiom listening room usually involve 2 to 5 days, but I found trying to switch the Sherwood to the stereo mode extremely frustrating. I had to bring in a couple of my colleagues who were able to help because they'd used it more than I had. I did not look at the owner's manual until later.

By contrast, the remote control for my H/K has a dedicated button labeled "Stereo" that switches off all the surround modes and goes to stereo. Simple.

In my experience, Yamaha menus are fairly complicated as well. No matter which brand you get, Laurie, I recommend you take some time and read the manual, but there are guidelines that will help: Are the remote's buttons too small and hard to read? The remote must have a backlight button. Can you read the front-panel display from 10 feet away, which will let you change modes, functions or sources without turning on the video display, if you are just listening to music, for example?

Let me be the first to say that's one nice looking hooker.

I'll admit that I honestly believe ECs are the spawn of the devil, but that is one fine looking piece of furniture

Dave-Nice to meet a fellow Utahn here. I work in South Jordan and live in Sandy. All I can say about your HT is... WOW!

And I definitely plan a drive-by on Halloween-my son is looking forward to it too!

Fordprefect-thank you for saying you like the EC I picked out. I don't think it is much of an exaggeration to say that I looked at every single EC and plasma stand in the known universe over the last month. But I think I did end up with something that fits the room and the future system really well. It doesn't arrive for another 2 weeks yet, so the jury is out still and I am anxious to see it in the room. I do believe in function over form, but only when you absolutely can't get both!

That is why I was so happy to find Axiom as every indication is that I will get great function and form combined with stellar customer service-all anybody wants-right? Even if I end up ordering 4 or 5 more finish samples.

Now if I could only pick a #!#!# receiver. I did read several manuals and then went back and read the owners forums and saw over and over again that lots of things are left out of the manuals-even if they are readable. I am afraid it is going to come down to flipping a coin and then I will just have to come back here for help on setting the darn thing up so I can get proper bass and sound regardless of audio or video format. I don't suppose there is some preferred wiring or setup guide somewhere on this forum that I haven't found yet, is there? Right now I am pretty much thinking the Yamaha 2600 but I read of some issues with it and the Denon 2910 DVD player-so I am back to looking at recommended DVD players.

And I get it that I need to buy a universal remote. One more thing to research...

My husband is starting to think that this whole purchase is just a disguised attempt to sit on my butt for hours on end typing on my computer.

Thanks for all your input guys!

-Laurie

One reason it's so hard to make a receiver decision is that there isn't anywhere near as much difference between receivers as there is between speakers or even between players. Speakers are "more different" partly because they have a more difficult job to do, and partly because each company has a slightly different view of "what makes a good speaker".

Everyone agrees on "what makes a good receiver". You could buy any of the recommended units and be real happy with it.

If you truly want a quality receiver that will match the quality of Axiom speakers find a NAD dealer and audition one of their receivers...It may not have all the bells and whistles of mass-market receivers, but in terms of sound it will blow all the aforementioned brands out of the water any day of the week. Cambridge Audio receivers aren't bad either.

ppaul, welcome. With all due respect...

Quote:

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in terms of sound it will blow all the aforementioned brands out of the water any day of the week

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You must know that this is debatable, at best. May we know upon what experience or criteria you base such an assertion?

Let me jump in here with yet another brand. After years of JVC's and Yammy's I jumped up a bit to Arcam. Mind blowing! Give this stuff a listen. Seems to love the M80's. Very easy to set-up, less useless features more of the important stuff. My $.02

Got my rosewood sample last week and loved it, so I ordered the Epic 60-500 set in that finish on Tuesday. Can't wait to get them! Still haven't bought a reciever yet, but thanks for the continuing advice. You would think in a city as large as Salt Lake I would have lots of opportunities to audition $1000 receivers but not having a lot of success there. And if I thought picking a reciever was difficult, that is easy compared to picking a universal remote... I am amazed that you can find $1000 models for something like this!! Anyone have any personal recommendations for these?

Do a forum search for MX-700 to live the Gospel of Ray3.

We have the Harmony 880 ($249) remote and to be quite honest I'm not so sure another Harmony remote would find it's way into our home's system. The software was somewhat of a pain, easy to navigate but difficult to get loaded into the remote without a whole heap of customer support and whenever we purchased our new TV the remote didn't acknowledge the TV so therefore the change required a couple of more calls to customer support. We've also had to replace the charging cradle (warranty from Logitec) and whenever the remote was working it would sometimes perform or omit sequence functions for the task at hand which required either going through the steps a time or two or using the components own remote. We ended up parking the remote and we're again back to having several remotes wondering about.

Hindsight being 20/20 I would have pre-wired for a remote such as the hard wired Crestron ... I also hear the Marantz universal remotes are pretty good.

I've had an MX-500 for a few years now. No PC programming, but it's great. It's not just an accessory - it's an integral component. If you can source an MX-700, I'm sure you'd be thrilled with it.

Last Christmas a friend received one of mid-priced Harmony remotes. It's quite nice too. I'd probably get one of those if I didn't have mine. You really don't have to spend a whole lot to get a good universal remote anymore.

There's much debate about the types of remotes: hard button, soft button, etc. The great thing about the MX remotes is the flexibility they offer. And fully backlit to boot!

It's great to box up all your original remotes and only use one.

I've heard good things about the MX remotes, that they are easy and reliable. I have been using a Phillips Pronto Pro (TSU7000) and liked it. The Marantz touchscreen remotes are very similar (OEMs I think).

You have to be a little more patient in programming your remote with the PC, and using the touchscreen- but I like it. It gives you ultimate control.

What I enjoy most about my remote is the RF control (not having to worry about pointing the remote). Looks like the new Harmony supports that too with the optional RF base station.

Quote:

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Got my rosewood sample last week and loved it, so I ordered the Epic 60-500 set in that finish on Tuesday.

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Congrats on the speaker purchase. I'm definitely hoping that you can eventually post some pictures of the speakers. I would love to see how they look in that custom finish.

I did see that new Harmony 1000 and that has got to be the geekie toy of the year. I'm inclined to go with traditional hard buttons, but that thing is so cool looking is does tempt you ;-)

I was thinking the Harmony 880 but virtually everywhere I looked people complained about the cradle. But the MX series has serious complaints about faulty units and poor customer support as well.

I will definitely post pictures of the new gear when it all gets here. I am hoping it is a Halloween present but that is probably pushing it.

-Laurie

Heya,
I'm no audio expert but I like to help where I can. For a remote you might also check out the URC lineup. I have a URC 300 and I really enjoy the touch LCD screen although I realize it's not for everybody.

I found my old Harmony just wasnn't doing everything I wanted it to do via the PC setup. I especially had trouble with components that didn't have discreet on/off codes. Maybe a call to thier support line would have helped me but I'm stubborn.

The URC 300 is totally programmed in the unit itself so be prepared to spend a lot of time programming and rethinking and reprogramming again. But, once you get it the way you want it, you can make absolutely anything happen with just one button press.

Does Surf also offer those dicounts on Harmony models? I gotta say that I'm still leaning towards those (if I ever get around to a universal) because of the form factor.

Not sure, Ken, but I'd be surprised if he didn't. Mike is a super nice guy. All you need do is email him at the above address, explain you're a member of the Axiom forum where you heard that discounts were available on some models, and ask him if he offers a discount on the model that interests you. Worst that can happen is that he says no.

I also got a fair deal and trouble-free transaction at Surf. My MX-700 has been performing flawlessly for a couple years.

I have now finished purchasing all the toys for our new system. I am so happy to be past the research phase and into the anticipation phase!

As for the universal remote, further research did indicate only the 2 mentions of bad units of the MX line and most of the discontent was about the software not being available if you purchased from an non-authorized dealer. Learned about surfremote on avs (should have just come back and read the replies to this thread sooner ) and went ahead and ordered the MX-850 from surf remote for a 45% discount off of MSRP.

My final choices were:

Panasonic TH-50PH9UK Plasma (Visual Apex) ETA 10/11
Yamaha RX-V2700 Receiver (Soundpros) ETA 10/13
Panasonic S97S DVD (Vanns) ETA 10/16
JVC HR-S5902 VCR (Vanns) ETA 10/16
Motorola DCT6412 HD-DVR (Comcast) ETA 10/16
Axiom Epic 60-500 Speakers ETA 11/6
Assorted cables (BlueJeansCable) ETA 10/16
URC MX-850 Remote (surfremote) ETA 10/16
Entertainment Center (Hooker) ETA 10/31
New sectional and recliner ETA 10/31


Decided to wait on a 2nd or 3rd generation HD DVD player, so that will give me something to research next year. Thinking about getting a wireless router to connect to the receiver and my LAN (to store more content than the DVR will hold) but DH thinks I have tapped the available funds sufficiently for now, so that will have to wait at least a while. Christmas is coming after all...

Still looking to add some additional cooling solution into the cabinets as all these components are reputed to run hot. Found this USB fan which I think would help but do you guys have any other ideas?

Halloween will be my favorite holiday this year!

-Laurie

Wow, Laurie, I'm impressed! One problem--your speakers are going to be the last things to arrive! It's gonna be one busy October/November to set up all that stuff. Congratulations.

I'm with you on the HD-DVD. I'm content to wait for the next generations of these things. Technology will improve and prices should go down. Plus, we'll see some universal players (I hope). In the meantime, I'm pretty happy with the way standard DVDS look on my set-up. Besides, I don't really feel like rebuilding my movie collection in HD just yet. . .

Laurie, my hat's off to you. You've done a wonderful job and have put together an impressive system which should provide many hours of enjoyment. Bravo!

Waiting for the 2nd or 3rd generation HD player is an excellent idea. I'm doing the same.

When the MX-850 arrives, should you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.

Yep, that's going to be a *NICE* system. Excellent choices all round.

I'm certainly jealous!

C.V.

Good show, Laurie.

Thanks for the congrats and all the helpful advice!

Did I mention that I can't hardly wait?

-Laurie

With all those toys on your way I can see why you "can't hardly wait". Impressive list. I'm jealous. lol

You live in Sandy, Utah eh? Did I mention that my Aunt and her family live there too?

Laurie, if you have not already done so, download the MXEditor software and the MXEditor manual, and familiarize yourself with both. It can be a bit daunting at first. However, once you get the hang of it, it becomes pretty easy. The manual is a fairly large, 70 page, PDF file, which I, ambitiously, printed (on both sides of the paper ). I found it much easier to have a hard copy of the manual. YMMV.

Mike, at Surf remote, should have provided you with a link to the software and the MXEditor manual when you ordered your remote. If he hasn't, get hold of him and ask him for them.

P.S. Try not to leave nose prints on the windows from watching for the delivery truck, will ya?

We got all the components this Thursday (except the speakers of course) so last night I hooked it all up. Wow! The Panasonic display is amazing even with the settings turned down for initial burn-in. Today I am going to play with the new remote, so I make be back looking for guidance!

It is so much fun to have new toys. ;-)

-Laurie

Hello
Just curious, how did the Yamaha work out for you ?

thanks

randy